We haven't become a bad team overnight

i dont know why my other thread got deleted, but anyhow, reading this forum the last few days all i can here is negativity from everyone, where has all the optimism gone from before, everyone know beleives over night that we are a ****e team. i hate this from everyone here. i myself said i could see us losing, i never thought we to quote others "a ****e team with no depth", so why has everyone all of a sudden changed their attitudes since losing to france. some have been realistic before that match, and those few are still being realistic, we have a good team, we havent got a solid 90 minute performance from all players yet.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

i dont know why my other thread got deleted, but anyhow, reading this forum the last few days all i can here is negativity from everyone, where has all the optimism gone from before, everyone know beleives over night that we are a ****e team. i hate this from everyone here. i myself said i could see us losing, i never thought we to quote others "a ****e team with no depth", so why has everyone all of a sudden changed their attitudes since losing to france. some have been realistic before that match, and those few are still being realistic, we have a good team, we havent got a solid 90 minute performance from all players yet.

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Agree totally mate think too many people at the game and who come on here just plain and simple like to give out .. Were France with their array of talent much better if any better than us on wed ?? NO ... we have doherty on the bench they have Cisse .. people have to be realistic about things .. We played well against one of the best teams in the world .. we are not a bad side and if which i think we will win our last two games we at least have a playoff.. cheer up !

well said zinedine. you could well be right, it just seems a lot of those were the first to say we would beat france as well.

as you say 2 wins, lets hope so, it will be tough but we owe the rolls big time. :)

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

i dont know why my other thread got deleted, but anyhow, reading this forum the last few days all i can here is negativity from everyone, where has all the optimism gone from before, everyone know beleives over night that we are a ****e team. i hate this from everyone here. i myself said i could see us losing, i never thought we to quote others "a ****e team with no depth", so why has everyone all of a sudden changed their attitudes since losing to france. some have been realistic before that match, and those few are still being realistic, we have a good team, we havent got a solid 90 minute performance from all players yet.

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well I said that (a ****e team with no depth), and I certainly dont believe we have the sort of team required at this level - we just dont have a 'vintage crop'. I went into the french game hoping an old fashioned "up and at them" or "put em under pressure" approach would paper over the obvious cracks and give us the momentum to beat superior opposition but we simply dont have it in the first eleven let alone in the squad to win when needed.

It is a poor squad and hoping Duff and Keane will raise the games of the others to the class required is a long shot at best. Duff, a genuine gem in the horsecrap, looks lost in the ireland set up.


as for posts blaming kerr, these posters nver specify who would improve the current first XI and those that do venture alternatives, laughably suggest a load of no marks....lets be honest we're not producing enough quality at the minute

We didn't actually play well on Weds nor have we throughout this campaign. We competed with France who weren't much better than us and who scored a magnificent goal.

You are correct we haven't become a bad side over night, I'd say we've been bad throughout this campaign. Luckily for us our poor performances are still in line with the other 3 teams fighting for qualification.

We need the next two performances to be good for the FULL 90 minutes, no lapses in concentration and we need to be lethal in front of goal & take the chances we create.

Though, I feel like Ive been saying that after every game in this group, time is running out for us to get it right.

Im not that hopeful Im afraid.

I don't think we have become a bad team overnight. I think robbie needs more football, he was also marked out of the french game. Apart from boomSh!te, I thought the french defense was very strong though. I've watched the game twice now (couldn't go to work yesterday not because I was hungover but because I have lost my voice completey :eek:) sure we didn't create enough clean chances & kilbane showed alot of the bad parts of his game but I thought Andy Reid showed more defensive skills than before, his shot against the bar! another two & half inches & that was in. Keane & Cunningham were fanatastic, Dunne did really well. I think this team has alot of positives. Truthfully we do need more from a couple of players, JOS & Robbie Keane have alot more to give, especially O' Shea he really needs to get his act together & I believe this is a make or break year for him. Carr has lots of talent but I haven't seen it in awhile & my god he's such a moany hole?

I think this team will get a play off place. Swiss have a very big game against the french on the 8th October. I guarantee, that they will pick up cards, It will be a physical game which they will be feeling the effects from when they turn up against us. We will hopefully have Roy, Andy Reid & Morrison back fresh for that game & against cyprus Elliot will have had (hopefully) a good few premiership games by then, hes played the last couple.

These last two games will define the Irish team & Brian Kerr, it is not beyond us to beat the Swiss & when we do we will have deserved a play off place, which means we are good enough to compete at the world cup. Its very possible :)

I invite ALL to lose their voices once again on 12th October :) Eh, would this be a good time to inquire has anyone spare ticket for the swiss game :o

"We need the next two performances to be good for the FULL 90 minutes, no lapses in concentration and we need to be lethal in front of goal & take the chances we create.
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this is what i am saying I honestly dont think we have played well for a full 90 minutes, nor have every player played well together in one game. for example rob keane and duff were very poor whereas reid and roy keane were brilliant.

6 players do not make a world cup side but if you are strong in the centre those 6 can make up for the rest. That is why I think we do have a good side, we just havent had everyone firing on all cylinders at the same time.

I also dont beleive we played poorly on wednesday, quite the contrary, I thought in the first half bar the last 10 mins we were very good, our passing was good, our defending was very good, allowing france one free kick, france looked lost in the final third and resorted to hit and hopes, that was down to our play. Where we really lacked quality the last day was the final third, our passing in close and tight corners was very good ( bar kilbane ), but this was because duff and keane didnt perform, had they performed or even morrison got one of the chances the outcome of that game could have been completely different. we could have for example caught france on the counter, and if duff and keane had been up to it, then the final third would not have been a problem.

There is one thing i have noticed in all games and i dont remember it under mccarthy, but i beleive this comes down to the coach/manager, we have no ideas in the final third, no quick 1 - 2's or no slick through balls, no run offs by any players, this is something that a manager can work on, a few different ideas but i havent seen this, bar a couple of through balls from oshea and duff up the left wing. When I was watching the ireland - italy game, there was many an occasino in the second half where we could have played through balls to robbie/clint but we didnt and passed the ball backwards, i had been roaring this all day and my mate was agreeing with me, as soon as elliot came on he made decisive runs through the middle and duff placed a few balls through gap, subsequently setting up two very good chances. I dont know whether elliot spotted this himself from sitting on teh bench but it worked, that is the only time i have seen ireland doing this. Had we played smart, quick and low balls through against the french then who knows?

Does everyone think Elliott will start against Cyprus ?? Obviously he should but have a funny bad feeling that Doherty might start which is silly ..Need to get Elliott in and he should have come on against the french as well ..

Elliott definately, has so much more to offer than Doherty.

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Originally Posted by zinedineontour

Does everyone think Elliott will start against Cyprus??

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He did in the Faroes when Keane was suspended. Presume that's where most people are coming from. It's what I think will happen as well, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He did in the Faroes when Keane was suspended. Presume that's where most people are coming from. It's what I think will happen as well, to be honest.

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hopefully just after doc coming on against israel and france but i suppose kerr thought hoofing forward was the best option in these cases ...

The defensive performance was excellent on Wed. night, Apart from the goal, the free kick and Vieira's shot I had a relatively relaxed viewing time while the French were applying pressure. Its given me some confidence.
Areas to improve in, is that we can manage to have that defensive performance when we want to close down a game. Other times when we need to, be secure in defense without having to concede an acre of space (with the midfield retreat) by having a front 2 with support from midfield closing down the opposition.
It is a myth that its only teams like NI have to play like that in order to gain a result. Is it a surprise that much of the effective workrate of Milan and Barcelona's front players is devoted to closing down. It is the standard tactic of top class teams.
Too often last night with a bit of pressure on the back 4 and midfield closing down we played the long ball (Roy and Reid excepted) to the forwards, that imo is what Domenech was dismissing as predictable. It wasn't just the Docherty sub.

yes our defensive qualities were good, but not good enough, because it was a needless give away that gifted henry the ball and also dunne holding back, he even turned his body for the goal, i have seen defenders do this many time, why turn away the direction the ball is comign from, bloody face it head on. i honestly do think that goal could have been prevented if dunne had been a yard in front or even just put his body in front when the shot was taken and not turn away from the ball.

has to start along with Elliot & Harte for O'Shea .Would like to see Alan Mahon,David Connolly & Mark Kennedy brought back into the squad to freshen it up a bit.

O'Shea is the weak link in the Irish team at the moment his passing and concentration are woeful and Robbie keane needs to be put under pressure as he is far too smug at the moment.

I'm not sure everyone responded with such negativity. My view after the match was and still is (I hope a trawl of my posts doesn't disprove this:)):

(a) The difference between drawing and losing isn't that great if you're realistic about remaining results. Yes, we'd have some possible margin for error if we'd drawn but we still have what I would consider a better than evens chance of getting second. Not winning was the big disappintment.
(b) generally we put in a very good performance. My lasting image of the match was the French kicking long, inaccurate, hopeful punts straight out over the goal line.
(c) Robbie was brutal & short of match fitness. He can be a lot better.
(d) We miss a creative spark in the middle. For all KK's industry he was never going to penetrate Vieira & Makelele. But we'll rarely come up against such good defensive midfielders anywhere in the world.
(e) no Irish or British-style manager would have done anything else. Maybe a real quality coach like Guus Hiddink may have had something else to say but I think Kerr isn't to be faulted for Wednesday at all. Yes, we were predictable as Domenech said, but all Irish & British teams are in Europeans' eyes.

After the two games against Israel I was seething livid for days. After the French match I went to bed perfectly happy that 6 points will do the job.

I'm not for a secong ignoring the missed opportunities but it's an extremely achievable target. If you look on the bright side, a play-off will hopefully give us an interesting & memorable away trip.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

i honestly do think that goal could have been prevented if dunne had been a yard in front or even just put his body in front when the shot was taken and not turn away from the ball.

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I think Cunningham allowed the ball to drop instead of attacking it too - often a fatal error. The goal was brilliant but avoidable alright.

Lads we can never expect Ireland to be anywhere as good as France ,Spain Italy Chech Rep etc,etc for obvious reasons and to beat any of those teams we would have to virtually play out of our skins, not just four or five players but the whole eleven. This did not happen on Wednesday evening and half of our guys were not just at the races from the word go. This is why we lost.The French although bad compared to their past high standards all played steady enough without been spectacular this is why they won even with a manager they all dislike for that matter.

One thing i notice over the years and am not sure of the reason but Ireland when playing in Friendlies appear to gel together much better as a team thus providing us with nicer football and usually better results. Could this be because there is less pressure on them before the game and it does not really matter if they win or lose, but for the big game that really matters something goes drastically wrong.We can partly blame the manager but only marginally imo as he did not tell the likes of Duff, Robbie,donkey kilbane and a few others to play shi*e the other night, so its the players fault 99 %.It is Kerrs fault of course that he still has not copped on that the Doc is even a bigger donkey than Kilbane.
We all like to think and hope that Ireland are capable of beating anyone and to an extent they are if all the team play well and not just a couple of them.I thought they may nic a result against France on Wed if they played as a team. They have two more chances left to prove us all wrong with the whole 11 players slogging their guts out for their country. :)

france have better players than us full stop. We are meant to be better than Israel and the choclate makers. Thats where we fúcked up. Were a good team with a very shallow squad.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think Cunningham allowed the ball to drop instead of attacking it too - often a fatal error. The goal was brilliant but avoidable alright.

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I haven't seen it on TV (and will do my heart some good and try not to) but thats what I felt straight after it happened...

I don't think the squad is that shallow. Sure its was embarassing as hell watching Doherty fall about the place but that was Kerrs choice. Elliot or connolly (not in squad) both Premiership players would have been far better. If we dont get to germany with that set of players and in that group it will be one of Ireland's biggest football Fup up's. I do think we are still in with a chance though. I always thought we would beat the Swiss. I did however also think we wouldn't lose to the French.

what we were missing, i think everyone agrees was in the final third, a decisive pass through to duff, keane or morrision to run onto. WHy wasnt someone like mcgeady given a chance here, he should be always in the squad in my opinion and in a big game like this, could have been a great chance for him to shine. I think he might have done it too, surely he could have done no worse than doherty.

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Originally Posted by FarBeag

We all like to think and hope that Ireland are capable of beating anyone and to an extent they are if all the team play well and not just a couple of them.

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What and when was the last good side that Ireland beat convincingly in a competitive game at home and away? We have been a tough team to beat for a long time but we also find it very hard to win against good teams.

( I underline convincingly as the 1-0 win over Holland in the last Work Cup qualifier was not convincing, it was a brave performance but we were very very lucky )

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not sure everyone responded with such negativity. My view after the match was and still is (I hope a trawl of my posts doesn't disprove this:)):

(a) The difference between drawing and losing isn't that great if you're realistic about remaining results. Yes, we'd have some possible margin for error if we'd drawn but we still have what I would consider a better than evens chance of getting second. Not winning was the big disappintment.
(b) generally we put in a very good performance. My lasting image of the match was the French kicking long, inaccurate, hopeful punts straight out over the goal line.
(c) Robbie was brutal & short of match fitness. He can be a lot better.
(d) We miss a creative spark in the middle. For all KK's industry he was never going to penetrate Vieira & Makelele. But we'll rarely come up against such good defensive midfielders anywhere in the world.
(e) no Irish or British-style manager would have done anything else. Maybe a real quality coach like Guus Hiddink may have had something else to say but I think Kerr isn't to be faulted for Wednesday at all. Yes, we were predictable as Domenech said, but all Irish & British teams are in Europeans' eyes.

After the two games against Israel I was seething livid for days. After the French match I went to bed perfectly happy that 6 points will do the job.

I'm not for a secong ignoring the missed opportunities but it's an extremely achievable target. If you look on the bright side, a play-off will hopefully give us an interesting & memorable away trip.

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I have to say I was very disapointed going to bed last wednesday. At the end of the day I was under no illusion as to the quality, player for player, of the French side so Henry's goal was no shock. I was disapointed in a number of other things.

There was too many long punts to our strikers. We don't have a Quinn or Cascarino so considering the size and physique of the French defenders as opposed to Keane and Morrison this was definately wasted posession . I think we were waiting on a repeat of Boumsongs hesitence against united. Robbie Keane was MUCK plain and simple.

As good as Roy Keane played I don't think he was used enough by our players. We could and should have retained posession much better using the likes of Roy and Andy Reid. A number of times I seen Roy and andy reid coming to recieve the ball and they were overlooked, which annoyed me considering they're the most comfortable in posession.

I'm aware the previous points are seeped in the benifit of hindsight, but one thing on Wednesday night that really got me going was the substitutions. While I didn't agree with it, considering he can't make the bench in an underperforming Norwich team, I could comprehend on some small level the logic of bringing on Doc for a bit of an aerial threat. In Kerrs defence every option at that point in the game was gonna bring criticism.

BUT for the life of me I can't understand why John O'Shea was moved to the middle when we were chasing a goal deficit. It still puzzles me. Had we been a goal up ourselves, Yeah. Maybe even playing for the draw, sure. But what was he going to offer?? Urgency, NO. Pace against a tiring french defence, NO. Penetration, NO. Bite, NO. A shot from distance, NO. I was fuming from my seat in the east terrace. Maybe you lads see something i don't in O'Shea. I dunno. Don't get me wrong it's not that I don't rate him. Just not for that job....

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

what we were missing, i think everyone agrees was in the final third, a decisive pass through to duff, keane or morrision to run onto. WHy wasnt someone like mcgeady given a chance here, he should be always in the squad in my opinion and in a big game like this, could have been a great chance for him to shine. I think he might have done it too, surely he could have done no worse than doherty.

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I watched the under 21 match on Tuesday, and McGeady didn't exactly set that game alight. I can't see any way he would have had a better impact on the senior game than the people who did play. I think a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with McGeady tbh. After all, he's still not a regular in the Celtic first time is he ?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

what we were missing, i think everyone agrees was in the final third, a decisive pass through to duff, keane or morrision to run onto. WHy wasnt someone like mcgeady given a chance here, he should be always in the squad in my opinion and in a big game like this, could have been a great chance for him to shine. I think he might have done it too, surely he could have done no worse than doherty.

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I dont know about all this underage stuff. Anyone who thinks the likes of mac geady and elliott are going to come on for ireland and produce a bit of magic are mistaken. Mac Geady isnt exactly setting celtic alight and he isnt going to be able to come on for Ireland. Elliott is battling for a regular place with Sunderland and he is far from 1 goal every two games. And Sunderland are bottom of the table in the English PL.

I dont think Mac Geady is in the same league as the likes of Duff. Elliott is all potential, nothing realised yet and he could turn into a flop.

Time reality was accepted. Mac Geady wont be playing next year in germany and elliott may have a part. Bringing young players to the higest level to early can smash their confidence for years.

Robbie Keane is a major worry. He has defintely fallen out of favour with Martin Jol and he isnt getting enough first team football. Robbie has never changed his game and its probably why he is so fustrating for managers. The lack of first team football degrades his sharpness, one of his best attributes.

France have earmarked Damien Duff and Kilbane as two very good players, they marked Duff off the pitch with 3 players all the time. The rate Kilbane and have done likewise. Wenger probably told the French national team everything they wanted to know. They had Landsdowne road all sussed thanks to the French rugby players. I dont think many teams in the future will be taken aback by the crowd.

Duff was in probably in the worst position on the Landsdowne pitch as he has ever been with the three French defenders marking him having said that he's most effective when he is running on to a ball, and that didn't happen wed night, every time he got a pass it was to his feet, I'd say the French were thrilled with that I certainly wasn't. Even if he just had to stay on the last man, the French would have pulled another one to mark him, instead he was totally impotent where he was

Dr_Peepee, you had a great advantage over me in that you were actually at the game but I still think that at times the quality of our build up play was quite good. Robbie's lack of sharpnrss caused a lot of promising moves to break down.

I actually thought the French were more guilty of poor quality long-balls than us overall but in the second half I thought it was obvious that there was too big a gap between Roy Keane & the front two. Kilbane just isn't a catalyst to get the front two moving. Kavanagh, an intelligent user of the ball, was left on the bench. I'd agree with you that someone like that would have been better than O'Shea in midfield. This is why it's killing me that Miller is rotting away at Old Trafford & I'd have Alan Quinn in the squad all the time.

I was listening to a lot of criticism of Ericsson over here last week & it's been put to him repeatedly that you don't necessarily have to have your best players in your best team. The same applies to us. I think it's time to rethink the Keane-Kilbane midfield partnership as it'll never be good enough to penetrate top quality opposition, but then again it will probably be good enough against Switzerland.

By & large, I'd like to have all of our most creative players on the pitch at once (Duff, Reid, Kavanagh/Quinn/Miller) with two upfront but how do you accomodate this without leaving weaknesses elsewhere? I'm beginning to think that playing 3 at the back to play 3-4-1-2 might be the most balanced & creative use of who we have but I'm going to give it more thought before I commit to this. In hindsight though, it might have been the best way to approach the last 22 minutes of the game, especially with Henry & Zidane taken off.

Edit - added later: Maybe a simple Kavanagh in for Kilbane switch is what's missing. Kavanagh's composure on the ball and his range of passing would have brought something to the party. Kilbane could come off the bench to add energy when others tire.

But I'm not too disappointed because even a draw would have left winning the group as an outside possibility & I think we've got to be a good bet for 6 points still.

Separately, McGeady is so off his game at the moment that he most certainly isn't an option.

Hi everyone,

"we havent become a bad team overnight" - very true.

I was ever the optimist before the match that we were going to win and I thought our performance proved that it was possible - we were capable of winning. A few inches and Reids free kick is in off the post , a couple of Morrison efforts that might have flown is , if only , if only , if only.

We stiffled the french in midfield, our marking was superb and we didnt let them have a sniff barring some long range efforts. They tried to find a killer pass but it wasnt there. But as we talked about prior to the game , we dont have an Henry. We dont have someone to pull out that one bit of magic when needed. But its hardly the managers fault or that of the players. Everyone did their job to their upmost. Duff and Keane were disappointing but Duff was targetted specifically by the french and was kicked from pillar to post by Sagnol (which was the right thing to do !). Keane looked out of sorts but he was hardly given much ball and Gallas kept tight to him.

The JOS change ? seemed obvious to me. KK looked tired and being 1-0 whats the point in bringing in Doherty if you dont have the delivery to go with it. Harte came on , swung a couple of crosses and corners in but nothing came of it. IF Harte had crossed for a towering Gary D header would the manager be hailed a genius ?

But this also highlights Irelands current problem for me. Its not "who plays up front" or "should Oshea play in midfield" but instead its "what is our plan B ?"

When we are down by a goal what can we do to change apart from bring on a big man up front ? If we want to go for all out attack (like we will for Cyprus and the Swiss) how do we change it from Keane/Morrison ? The truth is we dont have a plan B we just throw on the big man and lump it.

Is it anyones fault though ?? what can we change ? our bench was a spanish second divison defender , a guy who cant get a game for norwich and some bit part players in average sides. We are thin on the ground in depth. France brought on a champions league winner amongst others and the luxury of losing henry and zidane. As much as we all like to pick and chose our teams we dont have many tools to work with and that sadly applies to the manager. He can only do so much with what he has.

We havent become a bad team overnight, that performance for my money beats the Swiss next month. What we have become is predictable and therefore easy to play against.

I know the issue of whether Kerr has the killer instinct is a hot topic but this is crunch time, this is when we will see if this is true - Ireland expects !

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Originally Posted by dr_peepee

BUT for the life of me I can't understand why John O'Shea was moved to the middle when we were chasing a goal deficit. It still puzzles me.

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My initial thought on this was that it was a mechanism to get Harte on and hope for a free kick around the box.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

My initial thought on this was that it was a mechanism to get Harte on and hope for a free kick around the box.

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Yeah, I agreed with the logic of hopefully utilising Harte's assets and like i said I could even comprehend the thinking behind Doc's appearence, even if I didn't agree with it. But O'Shea should have been whipped off aswell rather than pushed into the middle for the simple reason was he was never going to offer us anything from the middle needed to pull back a goal deficit.

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Originally Posted by wallis

The JOS change ? seemed obvious to me. KK looked tired and being 1-0 whats the point in bringing in Doherty if you dont have the delivery to go with it. Harte came on , swung a couple of crosses and corners in but nothing came of it.

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There's no denying that KK wasn't at the races on the night and needed a change, but was John O'Shea the man to replace him. Kilbane makes the most from limited abillity, and is all heart and work rate. His very presence in the team is to primarily act as a "water Carrier" for Keanes aging legs. At the end of the day, pound for pound, Kilbane hasn't got much on some of the "bit part players in average sides" that lined up on the bench on Wednesday. The fact Kerr replaced him with O'Shea, for me, compromised the reason Kilbane was selected in the first place. Again I point to the questions I asked in my first post in that what was John O'Shea going to offer? Urgency? Pace against a tiring french defence? Penetration? Tenacity? A shot from distance?

I just thought at that stage of the game Kavanagh or S Reid would've been a better option. Reids performance in the world cup was on my mind last wednesday approaching the final whistle. Sure, we may not have pulled it back but I would've left Landsdowne Road in the knowledge that we exhausted every avenue in search of a goal.

No matter what Brian Kerr did after Henry's goal though he was gonna get critticism from some armchair know nothing such as myself. Every decision had landmines so I fully support him. But it was like that feeling I get when I'm coping with my missus in all her complicated splendour. I get really frustrated at things/comments/acts that I can't understand even on some small level. And that's the case for me with John O'Shea finnishing the game in Midfield when we're chasing a goal.

Looking back I think we did alright as well. ZiZu was kind of quite when he missed the free. He never looked like contributing a goal after that IMHO. I think Kerr got a lot of things right at the back tatically seeing that henry could really punish us with his pace. Fair enough we didnt press them upfront which probably cost us but at the end of the day, henry just got a yard of space in the entire game and he is a great player.

We are really suffering now that Roy is past his best, we never had great team and Roy rallied everyone to do what they had to do. We've probably sunked to the natural level without him now or almost as low. The last world cup reminds me of Everton when Rooney left, they did terrific last season but really dropped this year. There is no subsitute for world class players and there is only so much a manager can do.

The fact that we still dont have youth development on par with that of France and havent our own league properly developed is pretty pathetic when you hear people complaining why we arent doing it at international level.

No we havent become a bad team overnight, more of our players are playing at priemership level but we have fewer world class players in key positions to drag the whole standard of play up. We can still make the playoffs though. Providing we have everyone fit when the choclate makers come over.

Our only hope is to properly invest in youth and address our massive shortcomings both technically and physically.