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Folks,
Just wondering have there been any countries in the last 20 years who have had to reform their football structures completely? I dont know of any country when the system is so fragmented and disjointed so the comparison might not be a good one but it would be good to see what countries have completed the change successfully, and look and the ones where it hasn't been successful as well.
The first places to start would be in Eastern Europe, where the old Soviet and Yugoslav leagues were dissolved, and new national leagues started from scratch. Generally, the revamps that were most successful were those nations that had traditionally strong clubs already, so the transition was seamless in Russia, Ukraine and Croatia, whereas teams from Bosnia, Macedonia, Armenia etc never qualified for European competitions under either format. The most notable failure, however, was Serbia, as Red Star and Partizan were regular European participants, winning a European and Fairs Cup respectively, but they've rarely qualified for group stages since the demise of Yugoslavia. Of course, both England and Scotland have changed league structures over the years, but the biggest reform there was arguably between the Football League and the Conference - scrapping re-election has rejuvenated lower division attendances, the higher levels of non-League have been streamlined in the last decade, and as AFC Wimbledon have proven, a club can literally start from scratch and climb all the levels of the football pyramid.
Is eastern Europe really similar? Our problems are more political, whereas the structures and logical hierarchy was already there. Its the politics of football within the fai that would stop any meaningful reform of the entire structure from school children to senior international teams.
Yes the English lower league's went through be restructuring in the mid 00's. Over a number of years they made the Pyramid system better. Took more than one year. Could do something similar in Ireland.
Keep the Premier division 12 team. Drop current 1st division clubs into Leinster, Munster and Ulster Senior leagues. Get the likes of Monaghan, Kilkenny and Kildare backe into this system.
Have to create a Connacht senior league but possible some strong junior clubs there like Mervue, Salthill, Westport, Castlebar,Ballina United, Tuam Celtic, Galway Hibs, Athenry and have them have promotion/relegation with the Galway Senior League/Mayo Senior league Maybe Sligo/Leitrim senior league and Roscommon Senior league too.
The Munster Senior League with the addition of Waterford, Cobh and maybe Tralee Dynamo's/Killearney Celtic, Clonmel, Cashel, Dungarven, Tramore, Ennis (cant think of the name of the big club there.) would be a good standard league and draw enough crowds to pay for the travel costs.
Ulster senior League + Finn Harps + Monaghan, Cavan Town Carrick Rovers would be ok. Although i could see Monaghan, Cavan and Carrick Rovers just going into the Leinster senior league instead.
Have a playoff system between the winners of each provincial league (along with licence) for promotion.
I could see the Leinster Senior League being really strong. Ulster and Connacht weak though.
Ulster senior league is just Donegal though. Derry and Harps already have teams in it. Were Harps to drop into it, it would be the end of the club.
no/very small travelling costs but there would be no need for a new ground. Im sure there are legacy costs which would cripple the club. I knew the Ulster senior league which is why i did not think Mons or cavan town would enter it and instead go with Leinster senior league. My system could leave the top division as a 14/16/18 team league alright and Harps aren't in the top 18 clubs right now. By dropping a few first division clubs they would make the regional leagues much stronger. With the final two games harps could still pass ramblers.
If rumours are to be believed of Galway FC on the way in to be Galway's only LoI club and Wexford on the way out, it's hard to see anything but an 18 team Premier next year with Harps included. What has worked in other countries wouldn't necessarily work here. If the league needs to be a single tier for a number of years, so be it. Long term, I'm not so sure having an U19 league and then the Premier division is good for the game in this country. There'll need to be a level for players out of U19's but not ready for the Premier Division. This is where at the very least a form of 'A' league might need to be considered again. With 18 premier clubs split in three regions at 'A' level, travel costs etc. could be kept to a minimum and an olive branch could be extended to the like of Carlow FC again.Quote:
Originally Posted by citybone
I don't see anything like this happening straight away if the LoI is a single division next year but I'll be surprised if some form of second tier is not brought in within 3-4 years.
Who's suggesting Youths are on the way out? A receiver has been appointed to the company that owns the stadium, not the club. Granted, this could have implications for the club if the receiver chooses to chase up back rents (which I've heard said are substantial) but since it's a single-purpose stadium and there aren't a load of football clubs in Wexford queueing up to take it on, I'd be reasonably confident the receiver will be looking to keep them renting the ground next year.
I don't know would you call it root and branch reform, but the integration of the Protestant and Catholic pyramids in the Netherlands, who would not play on each others holy days was a pretty big reform and compromise.
You can design any structure you like, but is there any evidence that the intermediate clubs are interested? There's been nothing stopping clubs applying to join the league, and there's plenty of former league teams in the Leinster Senior League. I can't see them voting it in, and because of the make up of the FAI they can't be forced. The root and branch reform needs to be the FAI structures, and then worry about the pyramid.
I wouldn't be convinced we'd survive going back to Leinster Senior League. First division is hard enough to keep a club going in, and the difference between the premier and the LSL (for example) would be massive to step up in one season. And how is promotion/ relegation going to work when they're in a Winter season and the LoI is summer?
A pyramid system would never work here. I don't know who comes up with this rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Finally got around to reading "Who Stole Our Game" a few weeks ago and it would make you despair for any prospect of ever reorganising the FAI or the league system. The politics of the existing set-up is just so poisonous and embedded that it would be nigh on impossible to bring about successful change. Ideally every league in the country would be brought into the pyramid system, three regional leagues below the premier or even below the first, East, North West and South West, fed by the local leagues in each region. It's just not likely to happen in any of out lifetimes.
The FAI need to get themselves sorted out first, then sit down and make a structure that's worthwhile for everyone. A pyramid structure shouldn't exist solely to benefit LOI clubs at the top, why would the intermediate clubs join in that case? They need to get something out of it as well, whether that be infrastructural grants, training assistance, guaranteed minimum compensation if their players move to an LOI club, whatever.
Recent somewhat successful attempts to reform football in Scotland mirrors some of the debate here, at least in terms of numerous regional leagues and competing interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
Uniquely, they have two large independent adult football associations, the SFA and the Scottish Junior Football Association (SJFA). The latter appears to be a hugely successful league and superior to the lower divisions of the SFA. (Junior football in Scotland, unlike Ireland, is not an adult grade, but merely a term for a separate adult league.)
Attempts to get the SGFA on board with attempts to introduce a national football pyramid failed earlier this year although significant reforms of the SFA leagues were introduced. The key element of the SFA league reforms was the successful integration of the major regional leagues, such as the Highland League and the Lowland League, into the football pyramid, something that proved impossible in the past.
[Scotland also has a third football organisation (!), Scottish Welfare Football Association, but this body appears insignificant in the greater scheme of things......]
Having a properly organised and controlled structure would be to benefit the National team, via the quality of players. It's not actually about the LoI - that's just a fringe benefit as a LoI fan. However, those fringe benefits trickle down - schoolboys remaining at home and being developed by our own system (rather than the failing British system), would lead to better players overall. Them coming through a structure into the LoI, the best players would inevitably still go abroad, the next level wouldn't be disillusioned at their dreams being over at 18 and would stay fighting for that move as plenty of players have shown recently can happen (lifting the standard of the LoI), the next level of players would be playing Intermediate etc etc. Payments for the players going abroad would feed down, as it is supposed now. Better standard of player for the National team, means more revenue for the association, so more money for the entire game.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
We have to break the link between sending out children overseas to develop as footballers. That is the root of the problem for the National team now, and yes that does effect the league too, but it's a symptom of the politics that each corner fights purely for themselves with equal power, and we stagnate. Until we get away from school children playing competitive leagues, in front of loads of scouts, to get sent to England, that cycle won't be broken and the entirety of Irish football suffers.
That could be a description of the league here when the A Championship was in existence. There was probably a number of senior and junior leagues more competitive than the A Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raheen
Pyramids are over-hyped. If they work for some countries great but it's not a solution for all. A league with LoI teams of players out of their U19's mixed with a number of ambitious intermediate/junior clubs looking to join the LoI is the most that could be hoped for. I don't think there's a need for any major reform there.
If that's not possible, it's the only thing I've touched on in another thread. LoI clubs should be at the centre of the development of the game in this country with assistance from the FAI to set-up soccer camps. LoI clubs need to have more visibility in regions without a LoI club. It should see a larger player pool for them to pick from and maybe a bit more support.
My brain just exploded.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Who are the stakeholders who would need to drive change in Ireland? FAI ..... SFAI .... Intermediate level so its MFA, LSL, the colleges, USL. Who else?
Nothing will change with Soccer in Ireland until all the stakeholders from Schoolboy up to League of Ireland level sit down and formalize a plan for Soccer in Ireland going forward.
This requires the type of leadership from the FAI which under its present guise is not possible. The first thing that is needed is reform of the FAI from the top down.
At the moment & since God was a boy you have everyone fighting their own little corner & the result is the fragmentation of Soccer in Ireland that is visible for everyone to see.
This has led to the begrudgery that occurs at every level in this country.
Clubs like Cork City under the ownership of its fans group FORAS are trying hard to change opinions in all areas of Cork City & county.
They have attempted integration in the Munster Senior League but their attempts were rebuffed.
City had a selection of players from the Under 19 league who still needed development before stepping up to League of Ireland level.
City inquired about entering a team in the Munster Senior League. They were told that it would have to be the lower level of the League which is the 2nd division.
Although this was not ideal as the standard would not be great City applied for membership of the Munster Senior League Div 2.
Even though City fulfilled all the criteria for membership their application was refused.
The reason given was "It would not be in the interest of the League"
City appealed the decision but the appeal was refused as well for an equally ridiculous reason.
With decision making like this Soccer in Ireland is doomed to make the same self-interested mistakes that has dogged it since the beginning of time. I have been involved in Soccer at various levels since I was a 12 year old & that’s a long time. In all that time very little has happened to improve the governance of Soccer in this country. The only thing that comes to mind is the licencing scheme & even that is flawed in a lot of aspects of its administration.
What is needed is leadership from the top down but under the present composition of the FAI this will never happen.
That's what needs to happen so, get everyone to sit down. If mainstream media picked up the mantel then we might see some moves towards it, or at least some answers. Being honest i would have thought that every sports journo in the country would be all over this one, as they could get years of work out of it, documenting the progress as it goes along. You'd definitely get more print/headlines out of it that way than the odd piecemeal sound-bytes they get every couple of months at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
And there is a perfectly valid reason for questioning the current system. Its not like the powers that be can turn around and say "its none of your business", or "everything is fine, there are no problems." ...... Its screaming out to be covered.
Are there many other clubs around the country in a similar situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
I would imagine all the clubs have this problem.
The ideal situation is the A or Under 21 league where these players could get experience.It could be regionalized if necessary.
Personally I would prefer to see all the Leagues around the country integrated in a type of league network as in the UK but I don't hold out much hope of that ever happening.
The advantage of regional Leagues like the Munster Senior League & other such leagues is the reduction in the expense involved rather that having to travel all over the country.
could field a reserve team in the first division but the costs would be higher. FAI would love another team in the first division. another idea would be to just loan players out too Cobh to get experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
Entry in the 1st Div would work if the 1st Div was regionalised but that's not going to happen because leagues like the Munster Senior League etc would object.
What you have in this country is a bucket load of small leagues all pulling in different directions & the overall product suffers as a result of their actions.
Nothing will change until people get around the table & talk to each other.
I doubt all clubs have that problem, some premier clubs wanted the A Championship disbanded. I'd like to see it return in some form, no surprises there! As opposed to being viewed mainly as reserve teams, an A league should be something like Olympic squads that LoI clubs could only have a maximum of 3 over the age of 23 players in the matchday squad. Something like that would send out the right signal that it would be a development league. I'd only see a real need for this if we do wind up with only a single tier premier.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
I like the idea of senior leagues feeding up the ladder but from what I've read and heard on the internal politics of the game, it's not going to happen. If there's already a club from an area, I wouldn't see the need.
What's stopping a number of clubs forming a league for players of that level and lobbying the FAI for assistance to get it setted?Quote:
Originally Posted by citybone
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Why would the MSL object to the first division being regionalised? It won't be regionalised anyways because it was an option of merging with the A Championship but it was rejected.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
Is there a problem with having so many small leagues? There doesn't have to be a perfect system like the pyramid structure across the water. If there was, it'll be a bit like the EU and all their regulations etc. I can only solutions from within current structures.
Every club in LOI who have an U19 team i'd say.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Nice idea, if it were practical, worth looking at.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Yeah, its like the senior league decide and control whether or not the football system in this country gets resolved ..... but they don't seem to be culpable for it though. Its like there are a law unto their own.Quote:
I like the idea of senior leagues feeding up the ladder but from what I've read and heard on the internal politics of the game, it's not going to happen. If there's already a club from an area, I wouldn't see the need.
Clubs cant just go off and start setting up their own leagues, or you'll have a completely disjointed, fragmented mess with loads of division and chaos would rule the day, oh wait ..... we have that already at gressroots, oooooppppsQuote:
What's stopping a number of clubs forming a league for players of that level and lobbying the FAI for assistance to get it setted?
I'd imagine the MSL will view a regionalised first divison as competition to their league. They would want it all their own way y'see, not allow teams to join but not like another league setup to substitute, i know it sounds mad as if the MSL didn't have the player pathway/progress at heart and let other reason make the decisions, like self interest etc.Quote:
I'm not sure what point you're making here? Why would the MSL object to the first division being regionalised? It won't be regionalised anyways because it was an option of merging with the A Championship but it was rejected.
Maybe it does have to be a 'perfect system like the pyramid structure across the water' but there would have to be some sort of unified system in place. At present there is no system at all, just everyone doing their own thing. Player Pathway isn't even considered.Quote:
Is there a problem with having so many small leagues? There doesn't have to be a perfect system like the pyramid structure across the water. If there was, it'll be a bit like the EU and all their regulations etc. I can only solutions from within current structures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Who rejected the amalgamation of the 1st Div with the A Championship.Was it the League of Ireland clubs or was it the FAI as a whole ? You say there doesn't have to be a perfect structure like across the water.
I ask "Why not"
What we have at the moment is an imperfect structure & it clearly does not work. The present structures clearly do not work & that's why we have being going around in circles for years trying to sort out a workable League of Ireland structure when it’s the overall structure of the FAI which is defective.
We have to move forward with restructuring the FAI otherwise we are going to have the same problems & arguments long after I & many others are long gone.
To be fair, you have to draw a distinction between the FAI and the SFAI, etc. I think the FAI if it were possible/relatively easy would reform (or at least you would hope so) .... Its the SFAI, MSL, LSL who are blocking the progress from what i can see.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
In that case we're Doomed I tell you Doomed.I really don't hold out any hope that any of those organisations will ever want to change what they are quite comfortable with.The best I can hope for is that each club will in their own way see the light & understand that the present structures are not in the best interest of Soccer in this country as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
Some things are appreciated more when they're gone! Maybe a development league along the lines of the A league I mentioned might be seen more acceptable if clubs do require a league for players out of the U19s not ready for the Premier.If the LoI does become a single division of 18, would it be impractical for the clubs to have an A team in one of 3 regional leagues split north&west, east and south?Quote:
Nice idea, if it were practical, worth looking at.
I'm open for correction here as I wasn't at any of the meeting. If I was, I'd be demanding any structure that assured the place of a Kerry club!!My understanding was that Premier clubs found it a drain on resources having to field an A team. This was a main driving force behind ending the A Championship. This is why I've been surprised to hear clubs now looking for a level for players out of U19s not quite ready for the premier division.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
On the amalgamtion of first division and A Championship, my understanding from what I heard of it was the first division clubs were not interested in it.
Regards perfect structure or not, the reality has to be accepted. If the big fish in the small pond won't and can't be changed, what can be done? There are areas of improvement that can be made e.g. the A league along the lines of olympic squads mentioned above. What you'd have there would be three regional development leagues below the LoI. The hope would be in time that clubs from non-LoI areas might join e.g. Carlow FC who wouldn't have restriction on numbers of U23 players at it'd be their first team at that level. Just to expand on this one step further again, the best first teams from each of the 3 regions along with the worst team in the LoI division(s) could play-off for the final LoI spot each year.
This would at least be an improvement of where we are: more regions with a connect with the LoI and a level between underage and senior leagues.
(1)There are already regional leagues like the Munster, Leinster & Ulster Senior Leagues but Cork City weren’t allowed to join the Munster Senior League because “It was not in the league’s best interest” so why would we need more regional leagues ? This is one of the problems.There is no continuity or connection between the various leagues.(2)Kerry is more than large enough to have at least a Munster Senior League team. Instead we have teams like Tralee & Killarney playing in the Kerry District League. For goodness sake Kerry is better than that.(3)The only way for the structure to change will be if the members of clubs elect officers who’s real interest is Soccer in general in the country & not their own little patch.***** Is there any way to set out proper paragraphs on this forum as everything jumbled together is doing my head in*****Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
I'm trying to think of an answer that isn't just "the return key", but I'm flummoxed.
I think he might be on a phone or a touchpad, the editor is a bit different then.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
1. A regional league might be needed for LoI clubs who want games for players out of U19's. If senior leagues don't want to facilitate these teams, it appears the only other option. Does Cork need more clubs in the LoI? If there was a connect between MSL and LoI, you'll be looking at a repeat of the 3 Galway clubs situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
2. The MSL in mainly a Cork league. You're unlikely to have Kerry clubs having anything to do with that league again. If it's the way the MSL want to do their businsess, I'm not going to be critical of it. A regional league along the lines of the A league with LoI development teams and a route to LoI football is the mostly like regional league to have clubs from areas like Kerry, Mayo and Carlow etc. involved.
3. Again, is there a need for overall structure to change? Traditions of clubs and leagues need to be respected as well. The LoI has a strong core of about 18 or 19 clubs. Cork for example should be more to the centre of the devlopment of the game within their region. While it might be tough, they need to work as best they can with the politics of local leagues. From what you've been saying, what Cork is missing is a development team after U19 level. What needs to be worked on there is lobbying the FAI and seek out support of other clubs for the creation of a development league. If premier clubs were able to lobby the FAI to disband the A league, I don't see why on reflection they can't lobby them about the creation of a development league if it's something they think is essential to the development of players.
Really? I've never had one that didn't have a return key of some kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
You're right.
My one even has an ignore key as well but I couldn't find it :snicker:
Do any LOI clubs have a second team in a lower league? I think Finn Harps and Derry have teams in the Ulster senior league, Do any Dublin team have a second team in the LSL or Dublin leagues?
UCD do, don't think any others do.
The Dokter has spoken on the matter .... To be honest i'd say the guy is saying 'what kind of a basket case have to taken on here?' .... all this before you get any replies for the leagues. I suppose it will be easier to pick out the leagues who are in the dark ages and just how dark it is for them.
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