Having watched the United/Sunderland match today, I can't say my opinion of O'Neill is super high at the moment.
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Having watched the United/Sunderland match today, I can't say my opinion of O'Neill is super high at the moment.
Well he's available now!
Sacked tonight by Sunderland!
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/engli...martin-oneill/
I think this changes the Trap debate completely. For the first time there is a decent answer to the 'who would you replace him with?' question.
But Paul Jewell's been free since October.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
I know he has become a figure of fun in Irish football, but I actually think Jewell is a decent manager at a certain level. OK Ipswich was a fiasco, but he did some cracking work at Bradford and Wigan.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Another one (by Vincent Hogan) from the same school of thought offering some more to chew on: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29163896.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Quote:
Austria's late goal left Ireland's World Cup hopes on life-support, pitching the collective mood from hopeful to discordant.
And, for those filing live copy, this was the gravest inconvenience. Essentially, we had 10 minutes to turn a lullaby into Carmen and, with fingers no longer accepting signals from the central nervous system, that wouldn't be easy.
Still, it was no excuse for rounding on Trapattoni like a motorcycle-gang, which is essentially what the media did on Tuesday night.
The story on Wednesday morning was that he would not be stepping down as Ireland boss, as if this represented some breathtaking chutzpah on the Italian's part.
Now, this column wearies of his old colonel's eccentricities as quick as the next, but the idea that Trap should have resigned this week surely spoke more about an industry's self-delusion than it did about the Irish manager.
You have to wonder is there a comparable case-study anywhere in world football, where – decade after decade – the man at the helm of a national team gets depicted as some kind of hapless Mr Magoo, endlessly dragging his players down.
Through my entire journalistic career, this has been the unchanging soundtrack of Irish football.
The manager is the problem. With someone wiser in charge, our players would play to the sound of trumpets.
Maybe you have to be of a certain age to recognise the recidivism of that conceit.
Just now Wes Hoolahan must live in silent dread of the day Trap finally bows to the populist chorus and starts him in an important game. Because the more Wes gets overlooked, the higher his legend soars.
I happen to think that Trapattoni got a lot of things right last Tuesday night.
After the careless concession of an early goal, his team played with a competitive energy the Austrians, palpably, did not enjoy. Had Shane Long's back-heel not hit the post or had Heinz Lindner not produced a second-half wonder save, this might well have been filed away as the best Irish home performance since the '01 defeat of Holland.
But the third goal did not materialise and Ireland ended up wrestling vainly for control of the football in much the same way England did in Podgorica and, Heaven help us, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all did during their respective defeats on the same night.
I don't know, but I suspect there's the kernel of a clue there.
Eight years ago, Brian Kerr was getting it in the ear for his team squandering leads twice against Israel.
During a 1-1 draw in Tel Aviv, he had perhaps the greatest on-field leader in Premier League history directing operations.
Yet, even with Roy Keane on board, Ireland dropped so deep in the dying minutes, that the concession of an injury-time equaliser ultimately felt self-inflicted.
In the return game at Lansdowne, a two-goal lead was squandered. That October, there were few cries of protest when Kerr got the sack.
Jack Charlton managed Ireland to three major tournaments, yet was accused of vandalising our native art. Mick McCarthy got his team to the '02 World Cup, yet was then bombed out in a popularity contest with Keane. The late Bobby Robson found himself ridiculed on 'Liveline' following a panicked win in San Marino.
And, now, Trapattoni's is the head being hunted.
He's certainly no Orson Welles when speaking English and, clearly, poor communication skills have created avoidable tensions in the Irish dressing-room.
But the concession of a deflected 93rd-minute shot is surely rank poor reason to expect a resignation in the qualifying mid-stream.
People fixate on Trapattoni's salary when, if anything, it's the salary of his assistant that should be questioned.
Trouble is, the media finds comfort in consensus and the cry for change now gathers unstoppably.
Liam Brady is shouted down on television for suggesting it inappropriate to ask Trap if he's considering his position immediately after missing out on a precious victory by maybe 30 seconds. Worse, Brady feels compelled to ask that his argument not be interpreted as some kind of blind faith in an old colleague.
Trap's time is probably coming to a close right enough, but the media repeated tired old sins this week.
We managed to spin the lie we've been spinning for decades, a fable depicting our football history as some potentially glorious tale reduced to hapless tragicomedy by a succession of bad managers.
Jonathan, mon frère, is this the life for you?
Fair article as usual by Hogan. Awful drivel on goal.com though.
Nothing will convince me that the concession of a late equaliser was not self inflicted with the manager extremely culpable.
Ok, so at the end of the campaign and Trap departs - which he will whether we qualify or not - it appears O'Neill is a candidate. Would he be interested? Should we be interested? He's very much in the rudimentary mould and player judgment is questionable, for example.
Regardless of how the campaign finishes, should Tardelli be a candidate? I don't know what the players' view of him is. It might offer the away form continuity we'd love to keep and maybe he'll be more progressive in the home games.
Just asking...
I don't always like Vincent Hogan's offerings but he was fair and not buying the ongoing fashion of boss bashing. It's embarrassing to read some of what has been written here or in the Irish meeja, I can only put it down to too many boys with too much time and free access to Football Manager.
As for a replacement at the end of the campaign - Martin O'Neill is obvious, but he'd get 6 months before something is found wrong. Paul Jewell, not the worst manager, but he'd last a month. Phil Brown, he's looking for work and cheap, he'd last at least a fortnight.
Sadly, until we break from the motherland we're not going to get anywhere. We're tied in blood to one of the crappiest player development systems in the world and it won't change so long as our own football establishment work along political lines rather than trying to make the sport a success.
The Goal piece, it at least says (sarcastically) a little about the Irish mentality. I blame the motherland!
Kilbane said in the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago that Tardelli does practically nothing in the set-up beyond being someone there for Trap to have around. I think he'd be disastrous, though I do love the boyish enthusiasm he shows at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'd have O'Neill in a heartbeat if his head is right. I presume he'll take a break so by October or whenever, he should be hungry enough for another job. But I think he might knock the club management on the head now, he's 61 and has been managing for a long long time. International football might suit him. He's not been great lately but wasn't he offered or at least interviewed for the England job not too long ago??
Maybe that other Clough old boy Roy Keane could be his assistant......that'd be something :D
Problem solved. The way forward is with Francis. Argentinian background, divine connection, can speak Italian and is of the same vintage as Trap, call him up John!
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/an...-29165109.html
They should hire a German with experience in the Bundy.
Or an Australian (manager) with experience on the BundyQuote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...nables-001.jpg
Or Al Bundy?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0cd-ETrQ9S...2BEd_Oneil.jpg
Or someone who's eaten a lot of Bundys?
http://getnloose.com/wp-content/uplo...1/patdolan.jpg
ha thanks - cough, martin O Neill - or a cheap move, just get Roddy in:DQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I was thinking Hermann Gerland but OK.
Hogan was right re our "rich footballing history". We don't have one and it pains me to hear Dunphy and his ilk talking about it. We've qualified for five major tournaments, all in the last 25 years and the three managers who have gotten us there have all been criticised at some point for crapping on our footballing heritage. It's laughable.
Not sure O'Neill would take the job to be honest. Would it be worth the hassle he'd get? Never rated him that highly myself, he's a poor man's David Moyes (who isn't that great himself), so not sure he would be that much of an upgrade on what we have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
Can't agree with most of your post particularly your comment regarding Moyes. Brilliant manager!
It's the last 26 tbf, Barney.
Charlton only got criticised afterwards. For playing football that makes Traps look sophisticated.
And Moyes is decent rather than brilliant. Be interesting to see what he could do, with a lot of money to spend.
Moyes has done a great job with Everton but that's about his level. I really like the fella, he seems really honest and has stuck with Everton when he could have walked away a few times but he'll never be successful with a top club because his style of football will get found out at that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
What do you mean get found out?
In the game v Man City, Everton were hardly "lucky" to have won. Same goes for most of the season.
Moyes is a good coach and I sincerely doubt he'd be "found out" if he went to Arsenal or Man Utd.
I mean he won't get the results that those teams expect. I could be wrong and I'll hold my hands up if I am because, as I say, I like Moyes and think he's done a great job at Everton.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I heard a stat a while back that I haven't Googled to see if it's right but that wouldn't surprise me if true. It is that in 48 away league games against Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, Moyes has won none. Could be false, but sounds like it could be accurate because I can't think off hand where he has won one. Once he gets to that level, his style of football is too direct to get results in my view.
I'd love to be proved wrong though if he does get a big job.
But then again, look at their gutless performances at home to Wigan and away to Leeds when they got knocked out of the two domestic cups.
Sorry. Just re-read my post post and it sounds snotty. I actually just didn't understand your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
Makes sense now.
That stat is correct as far as I recall.
This is a great read.
http://www.barriesview.com/2013/03/d...ics-at-everton
Practically pornographic if your name is Tets.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I knew he was a big man from seeing him on RTE's coverage of League of Ireland games, but he passed me outside the Aviva before the Austria game, and if anything the camera takes pounds off him. He's built like a warehouse!Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Sorry but I can't place all that much faith in an article that relies solely on statistics to say whether or not Moyes has done a good job. It doesn't (and probably can't) place sufficient weight on the state of the club over the last ten years. When you factor in the shambles that was Everton through Moyes' reign to where it is today, then his record is far more impressive than the simple story the stats tell. Also, this myth perpetuates that Everton play an ugly game, they are actually a lovely team to watch most of the time but are able to mix it up as needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
He is not the perfect manager but he has worked miracles on a shoestring while numerous other clubs spent beyond their means and suffered relegation. I don't see him as a top 4 club manager though. Different set of expectations that he will never have encountered before. I think (and hope) he should stay with the toffees.
Moyes is one of the people mentioned in the same breath as Mourinho when discussing successors to Alex Ferguson. I really doubt international management is in his future.
It looks like O'Neill and McDermott are both in the running for the Leeds job... talking of that job we can now add Neil Colin Warnock to the list of recently unemployed managers who might fancy the gig.
I think Moyes has shown an ability to adapt to his environment and changing circumstances. I feel he would be able for a top 4 club, if he was given enough time to adapt to the task.
Martin O'neill is still very animated on the touchline, someone mentioned to me that the game has passed him by, I think he definitely missed his sidekick this time around, someone to think rationally and spot/advise of the changes during a game. I think you can see why he isn't very good at squad rotation, he is too involved in the moment. I still think he is a great man manager and motivator though - two qualities ideal for international management. I think he would still make a great international manager where he has to motivate teams for about 6/7 proper games a year, where only he has to motivate for a "cup run" type task as he did so well with Celtic and Leicester in years gone by.
i dont think o'neill would want to take on the Leeds job right now. I wonder would he even be thinking about possibly taking over after Trap leaves?? or maybe that wouldnt interest him either. I cant see where he will get another PL job as such. Villa and sunderland are out and most clubs now are looking to younger managers with passing games like martinez or pottichino at southampton. o'neill's type of manager is out of fashion these days. yes he would get a job somewhere but would he want to drop to the weekly grind of the championship?Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Here you go...
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/200153.html#
Interesting perspective here:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...rs-227115.html
KIERAN SHANNON: Managers’ words can either arm or wound players
Tuesday, April 02, 2013
By Kieran Shannon
Though we hadn’t enjoyed watching an Irish soccer team so much since 2002, rarely was it more frustrating watching their manager stumble and stutter on than the last couple of weeks.
Enough has been written about Giovanni Trapattoni’s tactical conservatism that cost us a rare home win against fellow mid-tier European opposition: the non-introduction of Wes Hoolohan and the non-substitution of Conor Sammon, the substitution of Shane Long and the introduction of Paul Green.
What alarmed us most was a recent Kevin Kilbane revelation that during his time playing under the Italian, Trap hardly ever spoke at half-time.
I’ve been in dressing rooms all around the country in my other capacity as a performance psychology consultant and one issue that teams and managers constantly review is how effectively they use half-time.
What individual players need is some quiet instruction? Do you keep calm if they’re not playing that well or do they need a jolt of righteous anger? Are you offering them just noise and not enough information?
It doesn’t matter the grade or the sport: Junior B GAA teams or sides that have played All-Ireland finals in September, they nearly all look to make optimum use of that pivotal window.
It is frightening to think so that our national team, with a manager being paid such a massive salary doesn’t engage in the kind of humbling, practical reflective practice that coaches at even grassroots level in any sport would. The more the Trapattoni era was meant to go on, the less a problem the language barrier was supposed to be. The opposite has proven the case.
Even for coaches speaking in their primary language, language is always an issue. The best coaches are hugely conscious of the language they use interacting with their players, knowing words are weapons and that they can either arm or wound a player.
For the last few weeks America has been gripped by March Madness, the NCAA college basketball tournament which concludes next weekend with the Final Four in Atlanta. An increasing number of Irish people have also been following the tournament, now with the availability of ESPN on our Sky boxes.
During the multiple ads any viewer of American sport is invariably subjected to, the channel regularly recalls glorious moments in NCAA history with brief interviews involving the chief actors of the drama. Particularly high on the rotation is a moment from 21 years ago this week when Christian Laettner hit a game-winning shot on the buzzer against Kentucky to send Duke University to the Final Four. Though Laettner was the man who took the shot, Coach Mike Krzyzewski, the man all of America knows simply as Coach K, was just as much a hero. With 2.1 seconds to go his team were down a point and had to inbound the ball from under their own basket. It seemed impossible that they would score. But as Laettner would recall, Coach K in his timeout huddle broke it down into pieces.
First he turned to Grant Hill, the team’s other star player. “Grant, can you throw the ball to here (the opposite free-throw line)?” Hill nodded. Yes.
Then Krzyzewski turned to Laettner. “And Christian, can you catch it?”
Laettner nodded too. Yes, he could. “Well, then,” said his coach, “if we do that, we have a real shot at winning here.”
All of America knows what happened next. If you don’t, just watch it here. (http:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo3G2MfOYeA)
Reflecting on it many years later, Coach K would say that the key to his timeout huddle was using the word “can”. All of a sudden it didn’t sound like an order to his players. It didn’t seem impossible. The optional was suddenly very possible. Yes, they could.
All the best managers create visions for their players with carefully-crafted language. Though Jim McGuinness mightn’t want you reading it, the book This Is Our Year is a testament to his mastery of language. Before Donegal’s landmark 2011 All Ireland semi-final against Dublin, he didn’t tell his players that they “had” to get men behind the ball and “if” they would, Dublin “could” struggle. He told them “when” they got men behind the ball, Dublin “would” struggle.
“They’ll start kicking crazy wides, the Brogans are going to shoot from anywhere. They’re going to get frustrated and they won’t be able to understand why they can’t break you down.”
Soccer is one sport where for awhile you can get away with not even speaking the same language as the players: nearly every club dressing room at the top level is multi-national.
If a foreign coach brings tactical knowledge and structure as Trap did, then on the training ground and the tactical board and the scoreboard, gains can be made and seen.
But, to keep making gains over the years, such subtleties and basics as the language you use count. Trap has been unable – and unwilling – to provide that. Which is another reason why, at the end of this campaign, he’ll have everyone telling him a word everyone will clearly understand. Ciao.
Leeds job is available.
O'Neill & Coyle both mooted as candidates.
It's opium induced fantasy to be mentioning Moyes in connection with the Ireland job. He's probably looking at around 15 more good years at club management, earning the big bucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
You have no idea. I thought he would break the bench at Finn Park on a few occasions.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I originally brought his name up but it was in relation to Martin O'Neill, not the Irish job. No way that Moyes will take an international job in the forseeable future.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I like O'Neill and I think in the past he has shown that he has been a good manager. I would agree with Paul that he could be ideal in many ways for international management where it is more like a cup run with fewer games and he can create a good team spirit. it is also a positive that he knows the Irish players well and I do think he would carry a bit of respect, even if he has just been sacked by Sunderland.
I think tactically he might be limited though and if we are hoping that Ireland at least tries to play good football, we can probably forget about it under Martin. I'd also have concerns that he isn't exactly going to be the most experimental manager out there and I can't see him giving out too many new caps. One thing I loved about Mick was that early in his career with us, he tried to play good football and he wasn't afraid to blood new lads.
Having said that, MON would have to be a strong candidate when Trap leaves.
What about Steve Coppell?
Yes, Coppell would have been a popular choice a few years ago. Where is he now - Crawley or somewhere like that? I think his commitment is questionable. He's walked in the past when things weren't going for him.
Yesterday's Indo had an interview with Ray Treacy saying that Mick McCarthy was the ideal candidate and that he should take Keane as his deputy to groom him for the future. I nearly choked at the prospect of those two working together until I realised he was talking about Robbie, not Roy!
I wouldn't be convinced by Robbie's potential for management myself, though I don't really know. The broader point about grooming retired pros is valid though. I could easily see the likes of Cunningham or Kilbane, both bright, articulate and leaders, stepping into the breach at some point and we should probably do more to utilise them.
Anyway, let's just assume that the candidates are the likes of McCarthy, O'Neill, Coyle, Roy Keane and McDermott. Maybe Noel King as an "internal candidate" or someone like Lagerback from abroad. None completely convinces me, yet all have something going for them. The key thing is that any candidate is a gamble of some sorts. Many a successful managerial appointment has been lucky rather than down to carefully judged consideration. I doubt any of the above would not offer an improvement on communication (internal & external) and man management and other things being equal, that'd already be an improvement. OK, maybe not Keane for man management!
Personally I think our best XI when everyone is fit and available is relatively clear-cut (at least 7 or 8 out of 11) with any serious debates being relatively marginal.
What wasn't even remotely marginal is thinking that Sammon should be thrown into a game like Austria as one of our best forwards. Trap's selection and response to Austrian pressure in the second half were hard to fathom, as have many of his previous decisions. This is the point that Hogan and others are missing. We know we're not a top-tier country, we are impressed by the away record, we know we don't have a glittering past or a tradition of pretty football and we know that individual errors cost us last week. But considered opinion is that Trap is just doing odd things, picking odd players, falling out with players, picking square pegs for round holes, ignoring strong claims from in-form players and rigidly attached to a formation we often struggle with.