Not going to discuss the nuances of my family history on a public MB. If it's really that fascinating PM me and I'll respond tomorrow night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
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Not going to discuss the nuances of my family history on a public MB. If it's really that fascinating PM me and I'll respond tomorrow night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
That's fair enough BB...I think you were right in slagging them about their "Dual Nationality" though.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
If they read the British Citizenship laws, they'll have a fit.:D
The Republic Of Ireland affords me "Dual Nationality" as a birthright....kinda messes up your arguement a bit.:D
PM me a link, with relevant legislative dates and we'll see.
But they neither want to be or are 'British' AFAIK. ;)
I met the average Unionist. He sends his regards.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You can google it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
What they want to be, and what they are, might be two different things.
How they "identify" is an entirely different matter - and I uphold and respect their right to identify as solely "Irish".
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
In the absence of anything else I don't think we have a choice. For lots of reasons, I dislike GSTQ. In fact I dislike national anthems in general and I stand and stare at my shoes when GSTQ is played at NI games. But for me it's a case of fairness. I have stood in Dublin for the SS and I think it's fair to expect that gesture to be reciprocated in Belfast. And also GSTQ means a lot to some in NI, in the same way that the SS means a lot to some in NI and the RoI. In an all-Ireland set up, I don't think those feelings should just be dismissed.
Fair enough GR keep going. Your pedantic, weak and frankly juvenile diatribe has amazed and amused me all day. I've often been hesitant to subscribe fully to the notion that NI is infected by a siege mentality. You sir have somewhat eroded that hesitation. Thank god for some rational NI posters like NB. And you're relieved we didn't make it to the WC? Add deplorable pettiness to the list above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
you've likely already pidgeon holed me, and no doubt wrongly, but now it's in your head you will fight to make it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
do you still think your little "walk and talk" sessions are actually representative of almost 2 million people and will still purport them to be so to everyone? even when you are shown to be incorrect you still persist holding on to what on the surface appear to be, at the least, pretty uninformed views and make unwarranted, disparaging remarks. isn't that trolling?
i should try gathering my views the way you do sometime? no thanks, i prefer to try using facts over the coloured bitterness of wherever your opinions came from.
i've met a builder from ardee, maybe everyone in ardee is a builder?
i've met a junkie in dublin, maybe all dubliners are junkies?
i've met a ukrainian who was a chef, maybe all ukrainians are chefs?
i've met a protestant bigot in northern ireland, maybe all protestants in northern ireland are bigots?
no matter, there doesn't seem any point telling you things aren't all as you see them because you will probably revert back to the view you wish were reality anyway and continue spouting garbage.
open your eyes sometime ardeebhoy and stop letting others fill your head full of prejudice.
But you know I won't look at any link re. Brit.citizenship !Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Though in a wider context, maybe....
And I'm sure they'd respect your right to be British, though would be more confused about any 'Irish' bit....
:rolleyes:
Another bizarre interjection.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It would pay you to understand what you're talking about re: British Citizenship.
And..the Constitution of Ireland, affords me the birthright to be an Irish Citizen.
There is a certain rationale in what you say JohnB. Your point about fairness is one that I understand, i.e; you want there to be/think there should be, an anthem that caters for the Unionist people from Northern Ireland who attend Irish rugby matches. This is, crucially, different from an anthem that represents NI as a whole, and it represents a catch-22 situation for the IRFU.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
It is my view that using GSTQ to represent the Irish rugby team is no way appropriate. Obviously, the IRFU also know this, certainly strategically and probably by a majority belief within the organisation. If the IRFU did allow GSTQ to played before a match at Ravenhill, there would be an uproar in the Republic and the team would haemorrhage support. The IRFU is not going to go down that route, so, what should it do?
The fairest and most equitable way, would be, to just play Ireland's Call. I wouldn't have a problem with that. Alternatively, in the event that an official Northern Ireland anthem does come about, that would be then be used. This is the more likely outcome, in my view.
The central problem of course, as it pertains to NI, is that there is no collective Northern Ireland identity.
(but maybe the clock is ticking on that one........who knows)
That's the answer for Rugby.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
None of this one for the Unionists, one for the Nationalists ballicks...Ireland's Call (crap as it is), and get on with the game.
And..if Mary is in attendance in Dublin...no problem with the "Presidential Salute".
To Lamb,
If you dont engage with people how else do we find out their views....
May not agree with NB, but at least we get a view of sorts.
Whereas all you want to do is say I'm 'wrong' !
Obviously from the 'reasoned' line of argument !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Well, did ask you to send a link....am still waiting!
:rolleyes:
Have you heard of google?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You could have a point there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEAyPcezEGAQuote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
Always glad to help, old boy ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
I don't know whether this has been covered yet but you can't just decide to join up football federations willy nilly. FIFA has very strict criteria for this type of thing. All countries must be real countries (politically). That is everyone of more than 200 members. The only exceptions are the 4 'countries' of the UK who are allowed to remain as they are because they were the original countries who played soccer.
You cant just say an All-Ireland team works for the rugby so lets have one of those for the soccer too. It wouldn't be allowed until we have a united Ireland politically.
Not quite. Faeroes are a member of UEFA and FIFA while remaining an autonomous part of Denmark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilts
Not quite sure how that situation works - they have a form of home rule and are NOT in the EU, unlike Denmark. But I can see that different possibilities might be accepted by FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
However, I dont know of any composite teams (as they call them in rowing) being allowed by FIFA
Except for Bosnia and Herzagovina or Trinidad and Tobago??? :ball:
if the argument is on anthem alone then the teams/associations will be merged much sooner than I thought.
Look at how it's done in rugby. I personally despise Ireland's Call, but if that's what it takes to have the 6 counties players join our rank then make it so....
Everything is cross-border now. I reckon the football teams will probably be among the last things to be cross-border. But I think it will happen.
I'm with George Best. Unite the teams!
FIFA I think would look at each case individually. In much the same way they dealt with Darron Gibson etc. specific case...
It's not about the Anthem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
The IFA will not be giving up it's autonomy.
People need to accept that fact, and move on.
Some "6 Counties" players will choose to play for the ROI - others (the vast majority) are proud to wear the Nortrhern Ireland shirt.
You have your "All Ireland" team. Leave us who want nothing to do with it to get on with supporting our team.
It isn't. Read (any random page of) the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
It isn't. NI-based based players and fans supported the team for decades before the IRFU belatedly became (slightly) more welcoming to them.Quote:
Look at how it's done in rugby. I personally despise Ireland's Call, but if that's what it takes to have the 6 counties players join our rank then make it so....
It isn't and they won't. Two different countries, we're not interested .Quote:
Everything is cross-border now. I reckon the football teams will probably be among the last things to be cross-border. But I think it will happen.
The specific case is that Northern Ireland fans don't want to merge with your football team, so it isn't going to happen. FIFA aren't and won't be interested.Quote:
FIFA I think would look at each case individually. In much the same way they dealt with Darron Gibson etc. specific case...
Well there's a surprise. Two Ulster men saying NO! NO! NO! :)
Go away and stop stirring, you numbskull.
Id love to see it happen. However NI fans are of a unionist nature. Unionists are sectarian. Therefore NI fans are sectarian. Their fans are against it for bigoted reasons. Im sure i'll get challanged over this but its the truth.
Not all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdomkerry
Only some of them.Quote:
Unionists are sectarian
That's illogical captain.Quote:
Therefore NI fans are sectarian
Most reasonable people would agree that those trying to close down another team against its fans' wishes are the real bigots.Quote:
Their fans are against it for bigoted reasons
It isn't. Go away and stop stirring.Quote:
Im sure i'll get challanged over this but its the truth
I'm sure all rational poster on this site - the vast majority - will agree that your comments say more about your mindset, than that of any "Unionist".Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdomkerry
Get it into your skull - we do not wish to see our team gobbled up by ANYONE - be that into an All Ireland set up, or, All UK set -up.
To throw around lazy, broadbrushed, labels, insinuating NI fans are all sectarian, is, frankly, pathetic.
I don't care where you, or anyone else for that matter, (least of all Northern Ireland players) say their prayers.
Pretty shallow post KK - I have many friends from Northern Ireland who would be Unionists and are not in the least sectarian. All unionist means is they want to maintain the Union between GB/NI .....you and I might not agree (or in my case not very interested) but that doesnt make them sectarianQuote:
Originally Posted by kingdomkerry
Hey GR. You speak with total certainty about what NI fans want and dont want but how do you know? Who asked them and when? It would be really interesting if someone conducted a survey in NI on the issue of a single football team for Ireland. I would not predict the outcome but would not be totally surprised if the result was in favour. But I asume GR that you would not accept the legitimacy of this as it would not be restricted to "proper NI supporters" - ie the people who are by conviction already opposed to it.
Football is now nearly unique in being the only significant support where people from both parts of Ireland dont compete as part of the same team. The result is that we dont qualify for major tournaments and that (as this dabate sadly illustrates) the game is tainted by sectarian sentiment and ludicrous anachronistic hostility! Speaking as someone who has "mixed-heritage" and affinity with both teams, it is a total no brainer!
Oh my word that is an unbelievable statement and it is very untrue and very harsh. I think I would be safe to say that you have never been to Northern Ireland or 6 counties depending on your take. Some of the bigoted crap get thrown out at the old landsdowne when rangers players play for opposing countries. Also as well who said that to be Irish you have to support a foreign british club like celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdomkerry
I'd say I have been to NI at least 5 or 10 times every year in my 30 years on earth, and not just in Catholic areas but in some unionist areas. I have only ever got verbally abused once. Now once for me is enough but there is no way I could tarnish their whole population with the bigots and bible bashers. You must remember in NI that the minority seem to be able to voice their views as the majority.
Back to topic: As a southerner I don't want to see an All Ireland team or even an All Ireland league. Fcuk that I like having the border and no matter how some of you see, there are differences between both communities on the island. Some major and some subtle but there are differences. I am proud to be irish as are many unionist of their own heritage but an AIL or an All Ireland team makes a mockery of national rivalry in general. and btw England, Scotland and Wales would have a better case for a United Kingdom team rather than an All Ireland side
Afternoon TP. I've repeated it (by necessity) many times on the thread. NI fans want there to be a NI team, by definition. What the stirrers on this thread are suggesting would see an effective end to that team.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Their affiliation is self-evident, as I explained. As for a poll, I also asked specifically above (I think in reply to the Fly) whether there had been one. I don't share your interest in organising such a poll, but I'll certainly read it if and when it appears.Quote:
Who asked them and when? It would be really interesting if someone conducted a survey in NI on the issue of a single football team for Ireland
You assume wrongly, it's a free country and anyone can organise any public opinion survey they like. Of course such a hypothetical result would be surprising and a bit embarrassing, but to me it would be otherwise irrelevant rather than illegitimate. NI has a team, its fans want that team to continue, RoI fans in NI (like those in Glasgow, Preston or Mansfield) can already support and play for their own team. What's not to like?Quote:
I would not predict the outcome but would not be totally surprised if the result was in favour. But I asume GR that you would not accept the legitimacy of this as it would not be restricted to "proper NI supporters" - ie the people who are by conviction already opposed to it
Yes, so what?Quote:
Football is now nearly unique in being the only significant support where people from both parts of Ireland dont compete as part of the same team
Actually, not invariably so what. Ireland's two best cricketers play for England, its second best golfer wants to represent Britain in the Olympics, as did many other NI competitors in Beijing. Etc. etc.
Ha ha. We don't qualify regularly and separately for major tournaments because weQuote:
The result is that we dont qualify for major tournaments
a) don't have a huge pool of potential players to compete with the big five or six
b) continue to drop points to other similarly-sized and ranked teams
c) regularly get embarrassed by the minnows.
I honestly can't see any of that changing just because you have a 6 million population to choose from rather than 4.5 million (which comparison is spurious anyway, given your choice of qualified players from outside Ireland now and for years past.
Look, I'd prefer if the sh*t stirrers on this thread weren't being so sectarian, ludicrouys and anachronistic, but they are. So they're getting answered in turn.Quote:
and that (as this dabate sadly illustrates) the game is tainted by sectarian sentiment and ludicrous anachronistic hostility!
If you want to support both teams, that's great. I don't, but I don't want to abolish yours. I'm sure it'll challenge strongly for a play-off place in Euro 2012.Quote:
Speaking as someone who has "mixed-heritage" and affinity with both teams, it is a total no brainer!
Players born in Northern Ireland have the right to play for either the ROI or Northern Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
You wish to deny choice, by seeing the fourth oldest Association in world football just throw in the towel.
Sorry - but that isn't happening.
there's also huge differences between someone from Dublin and someone from Connemara but we're still Irish and of this island.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite
why would England, Scotland, Wales have a better case for a UK team? what ya basing that on?? You are reinforcing the border by not wanting to have anything to do with the northern part of the island. what about people who've spent a lot of time in the north as kids? or all the people in the north who support the republic?
ps KingdomKerry your comments are ill-judged and ill-informed and should be ignored. To say all Unionists are bigoted is just plain silly!!!
The people of the United Kingdom share a common, singular, Citizenship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
The four "home" countries exist as seperate entities, footballing wise, by dispensation from FIFA.
Some big wigs at FIFA already want to impose a singular UK team - that will be robustly resisted by Northern Ireland fans (and I expect by fans of the other "home" countries too)
What about them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
If they choose to support the Republic, that's fine.
The thing is, you can support who you like.
When people start want to deny choice - some of whom were most vociferous in the "right to choose" debates that surrounded the "Eligibility" issue surrounding Northern Irish born players - it stinks of gross hypocricy.
Why does anyone wish to deny Northern Ireland fans the right to support our International team...about which we are as proud and attached as you are of yours?:confused:
yes but do you really think it's plausible or has a chance of happening?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I wouldnt have thought so.
I dunno, I'd like to see it happening and I think it makes sense, as would I like to see a United Ireland. But if it doesn't ever happen, I'd like to think the fans would have a better relationship with each other in the future. The fact that there are northern Ireland fans on this forum is a good sign of that I suppose
There are differences between dubs and folks from Connemara but Connemara folk haven't been living indepent of Dublin for 88 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
I am reinforcing the border because it is there. There is a border on this island and it has been in place since the inception of this state. Like it or not that is the way it is and it isn't going to change for any time soon.
I do not want to ignore Northern Ireland but they want the same right to self determination as our grandfathers did in 1916 to 1922 (even if it is their national football team) and if that is the express wish of their people then we can't coerce them to do so. We can't say here that we want a united national team and not consult those whose team/players we want to use.
I based the england, scotland, wales, united kingdom team as it is literally one country. since devolution they all have parliaments/assemblies but power is with westminster in London and England, Scotland & Wales don't sit separately in the UN
The "All UK" team thing keeps rearing it's ugly head at FIFA - I, too, don't think it will happen though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82