I refer you to my last post.
People in glass houses and all that.
Plus you're the one looking continually to find pedantic fault with every post or failing to acknowledge your own overt contradictions of which recently there's been many!
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I refer you to my last post.
People in glass houses and all that.
Plus you're the one looking continually to find pedantic fault with every post or failing to acknowledge your own overt contradictions of which recently there's been many!
maybe a triganometry one thenQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Some people in NI view themselves as Northern irish - Northern Irish being a sub set of British along with Scottish welsh etc Think one big cicle (british) with 4 separae smaller circles (eng Scot welsh NI) inside it
some people in NI view them selves as Irish as well as british. Think one big circle (British ) with 3 separate smaller circles in it and one separate smaller circles 1/4 in 3/4 out (irish)
Some people in NI think there are 2 cirlces not connected at all, one Irish and one British along with all the other sovereign circles french German etc
Hope that clears it up, the triganometry lesson is now over*
the above is of course complicated by the fact that one of the smaller circles (england) actullly isnt very small at all ..............and will inevitably take precedent over the other 3 ciricles so much in fact that it is frequently interchangeable with the big circle. (but that is a different arguement all together)
While I disagree with some of the points you make, I think your opinion sums up my frustrations. You live in NI, but you feel that the NI team does not represent you. I believe that this is the tragedy of the situation and while I respect your acceptance of it, the reality is that this is wrong. National Associations if they are truly sporting organisations should be representative of the whole community they represent. South African rugby is an example that comes to mind. It has made massive strides in becoming a truly inclusive body. Many problems still exist like the positive discrimination rules, but through a determined effort by all, its identity as a sporting representation of white politics has ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newryrep
In terms of Michael O 'Neill's appointment, was he the best man for the job or did they just feel a Catholic was needed because of the ongoing defections? We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
In relation to your comments about U18s making a decision about nationality, why did FIFA change the rules? All I am saying is that these are the rules, let's not manipulate them to cover up any embarrassment on behalf of NI supporters.
The IFA has made positive tangible strides over the last few years which I acknowledge, but at the heart of my frustrations is one of attitude which NB continues to advocate, a soccer team representative of one community.
Lastly, what's this about the word soccer? You seemingly do not understand that it comes from the term 'Association Football' which was used to distinguish it from 'Rugby Football'. It was good enough a nickname a long time ago and I am happy to continue to use it when I want.
You clearly don't understand why proud Irish Nationalists like Newryrep support the Republic Of Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
They must find your comments insulting.
I'm embarrassed for you in your failure to grasp basic identity issues.
MON's appointment had nothing to do with where he says his prayers. Sadly, you sectarianise the debate.
He got the job because the IFA think he's the best man to take the Northern Ireland Senior International team forward at this time. I think they got that wrong, but time will tell.
I resent your ridiculous lies that I advocate a "soccer" team representative of only one side of the community.
I cherish the fact that the Northern Ireland team always has, and always will, contain players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland.
Furthermore I wholly respect the right of those who players who do not identify with the IFA, to express their identity by playing for the FAI.
Why is it wrong? Identity transcends territorial borders. As has been quoted before on this thread, being born in a stable does not make one a horse. The Irish national identity is not confined merely to within the borders of the Irish state. If everyone in Ireland had happily accepted the imposition of a foreign British label on their heads in the decades/centuries before partition, the Irish state would never have achieved independence itself. It achieved independence because the Irish people believed they were something other and that that something other was worth fighting for. Was that also wrong of them to feel that way?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Bit of a tautology there. Primarily, NI represent those individuals who seek to express their Northern Irish identity. In some cases, this may not be the case and players may choose to play for NI for realist/pragmatic/careerist reasons, but that's another argument.Quote:
National Associations if they are truly sporting organisations should be representative of the whole community they represent.
It was fundamentally motivated by what FIFA felt was a need to protect young players; to prevent associations from "entrapping" hot prospects.Quote:
In relation to your comments about U18s making a decision about nationality, why did FIFA change the rules?
I've never seen anything to suggest he does advocate such a position.Quote:
The IFA has made positive tangible strides over the last few years which I acknowledge, but at the heart of my frustrations is one of attitude which NB continues to advocate, a soccer team representative of one community.
You have missed my point. I am totally supportive of anyone who supports us, the more the merrier as far as I am concerned. I have also been consistent in the view that players have the right to play for who ever they want and I have expressed this on this thread. What I did find sad was that Newry rejects the IFA as having any relevancy to him. This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation. The GFA acknowledged the uniqueness of the political situation in NI and I think we have seen much bravery by NI politicians.
Unfortunately, I have will not seen such bravery in the opinions expressed by many on here.
Anyone who would rather see their team continue to become less and less competitive, and not acknowledge the reasons behind this are suspect to me.
I think this issue has not really come to a head yet. We could soon have Wilson and Duffy in defence, Gibson and McClean in midfield and the cries by imany NI supporters complaining about treachery will only grow. Heads in the sand stuff if ever there was.
Are they relevant to him, and, if so, how?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
So nationalists seeing the IFA as an irrelevance is down to cowardice then rather than the fact that their national identity is better expressed through affiliation with another association? The GFA also acknowledged the right of anyone to identify as either British, Irish or both.Quote:
This is not a condemnation of him, but on what I see as a sign of this organisation's ability to be inclusive, and I will continue to argue is the purpose of any national sporting organisation. The GFA acknowledged the uniqueness of the political situation in NI and I think we have seen much bravery by NI politicians.
Unfortunately, I have will not seen such bravery in the opinions expressed by many on here.
Who or what are you referring to exactly? Just speaking generally for football fans, it's only natural that certain principles - be they matters of identity or whatever - take precedence over the level of importance they attribute to their team's competitiveness. Many Ireland fans would object to the inclusion of Stephen Ireland in our squad, not because they view him as inferiorly talented to what we already have, but as a matter of principle due to past behaviour of his they find disagreeable, if not treacherous. If you can't connect with a team, of what value is that team's competitiveness to you?Quote:
Anyone who would rather see their team continue to become less and less competitive, and not acknowledge the reasons behind this are suspect to me.
The issue came to a head upon publication of the Kearns judgment in July of 2010. Since then, the IFA have changed their approach in accepting the right of northern-born Irish nationals to play for the FAI and acknowledging that the ball is in their court with regard to making themselves an attractive proposition for the general nationalist communty. What is it you foresee happening?Quote:
I think this issue has not really come to a head yet. We could soon have Wilson and Duffy in defence, Gibson and McClean in midfield and the cries by imany NI supporters complaining about treachery will only grow. Heads in the sand stuff if ever there was.
Brian McDermott in yesterday's Independent expressed his identity as Irish rather than English. Is this a failure on the part of the FA to be inclusive? Or just his own sense of national identity independent of any organising body in football?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
I very much doubt that the IFA is the only example of how Newryrep feels he is not represented by the political or sporting structures in Northern Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Your suggestion that those who opt for the FAI over the IFA do so because the IFA hasn't made enough of an effort to become inclusive enough for them is actually quite insulting to Northern Irish nationalists. It implies that these players' decisions to play for FAI teams isn't based on their national identity at all, but that they have decided to play for the FAI teams almost as a second choice - and it implies that if the IFA were to become more inclusive, these players would be happy to play for the IFA. It has been pointed out to you by more than one poster on here that there is nothing the IFA could do to make these posters feel that it is the Northern Irish team which represents their sense of nationality on a football pitch. It's not like these posters consider themselves as Northern Irish in all matters other than the IFA teams.
I dont 'feel' the NI team represents me ? its a phase I am going through ? it will pass in time ?, I have stated that the NI team doesnt represent me, because..............it doesnt. My country has Dublin as its capital, Michael D as its president and Amhrán na bhFiann as its anthem. It cant really be put much simplier - I am not Northern Irish (which is a relatively recent phenominum given the first port of call for those of a british tradition was surprise surprise British)Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Its a tradegy that I am entitled to Irish citizenship ? That i dont revoke my nationality and embrace the clearly british northern irish tradition?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Would you like to buy some magic beans ? International sport by its definition isbound to have a political aspect especially a world sport like football and to deny it is just fanciful - Cricket/rugby arent even in the same league and thats before you mention their eligibility criteria which makes FIFA rules look strict. Those who say sport and politics dont mix are uusally the ones with least to lose and care little and know little about the actual sport in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
He took a LOI side to the group stages of the Europa league and won the title twice he along with Brian Kerr were probalby the 2 most realistic names in the frame - I dont believe Gus Hiddinck and Jose Mouriniio applied for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
DI advised youit was to protect younger players and most likelly lobbying from the african nations Manipulate ?, save any embarrassment to the NI fans - do you understand this topic at all ?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
NB has always advocated the NI side should be open to everyone. I believe he has acknowedged that it was misguided of the IFA to drag this all the way to Zurich as it comes agross as particulary petty on their behalf to prevent a handfull of players exercising their choice
This is a football forum, the clue is in the title, trust me for the vast majortity of posters here football would not be misconstrued as rugby nor Gaelic. It is also a world game.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
You don't work for UTV by any chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Newryrep
Beginning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
If you can bear it, I think it would helpful for you to read through the last 30 pages again.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
And??Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
I was being polite.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
So was I.
:rolleyes:
If any of the Derry wans here fancy a change of direction, and a very challenging career move, this might be just the job for you:
http://irishfa.com/the-ifa/jobs-at-the-ifa/
Circa 22k per annum, and a free tin hat provided.
You two have a strange relationship, going back years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Almost as if ....
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cza0310l.jpg
If anyone happens to be in Limerick over the next few days, they should go to this: http://www.fai.ie/domestic-a-grassro...ll/102423.html
Interestingly, NISFA's Duffy and Harkin both played for the FAI home-based squad very recently. Another St. Columb's lad, McEneff, who plays for Institute, is said to be quite a player and has been on trial with some Scottish clubs this year.
And it's not costing the IFA a penny, yet another outside funded position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
A thoroughly enjoyable 3 pages lads in my absence.
Gastric, I note you are in Melbourne. Are you living over there or second generation or what?
Ironic, but it must be a cause of great comfort to you that your tax pennies and pounds are being used (and have been used) to enable the IFA to grow up, move away from the old ways, tackle their own hostility to you and to 'outreach' to all communities equally.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
'Since 1998 the IFA has worked in partnership with the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council and Sports Council to tackle the (their own) problems of sectarianism in (the IFA) football, with assistance from the EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation.'
"The IFA respects and values diversity. They endeavour to provide an environment which values and enables the full involvement of all people, in all aspects and at every level of Northern Ireland football, regardless of perceived cultural identity, political affiliation or religious beliefs. They believe in the philosophy of Football For All”
"The IFA are also committed to delivering comprehensive, relevant and current Community Relations and anti-discrimination training for all their staff and the promotion of community relations and good conduct within their supporter's network."
What were "the old ways", and in what way were the IFA "hostile" to Co Down Green?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
All sporting bodies in Northern Ireland can make grant applications to various bodies - at least one of them being considerably less "cross community" based than the IFA - the IFA has member Clubs representing a broad spectrum of backgrounds, throughout Northern Ireland.
I have spent the last week doing a lot of self reflection on my comments on here. I am certainly out of step with everybody else! And NB, as much as it hurts me to say so you are right, I do owe Newryrep an apology for misrepresenting his rights and his assertion of his nationality. I was incorrect in my assumption. I think too that I have forgotten the complexity and traditions that dominate Irish society. This is not an excuse, just fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Having discussed the issue in broad terms with friends over here, I have found that my attitudes are now probably more in tune with Australian principles which has scared me no end.
Australian sporting organisations are very pragmatic and proactive in identifying issues and they tend to tackle them head on. Possibly because there is less history involved, there is less respect for traditions and change can be quite dramatic and involve much upheaval. The inception of the A League is a good example of this. And such action is probably not applicable to an Irish situation.
However, I do have trouble understanding the IFA, and in particular, NB's stance. NI continue to fall in the rankings and much of what he asserts seems to involve upholding the status quo rather than a vision for improvement. I have come to appreciate that the IFA is reactive due to its history and tradition, but it continually frustates me. I am not trying to start a new debate nor am I being in anyway condescending. I am just trying to explain why I feel the way I do and to be honest after the heat and criticism I felt on here, I don't even know if my opinions are valid.
Firstly, fair play to you - having the humility to admit that you were wide of the mark and apologise takes guts. I respect you for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Can you please clarify what aspects of the IFA's, and in particular my, stance 'frustrates' you?
Of course your opinions are valid.
You accuse me of not having a 'vision for improvement'- whilst I strongly contest your accusation, I would be interested in reading what your 'vision for improvement' would be, as I am more than willing to discuss such issues with those with the best interests of the IFA at heart, and who wish to see the Northern Ireland International sides progress and flourish.
You come across as someone who really wants support the IFA representative sides, but feel you cannot at present - you are certainly very passionate about the IFA improving their lot.
Wasnt looking an apology TBH so fair play that you think I deserve oneQuote:
Originally Posted by gastric
NB wants his team to be open to all, while success is desirable I suspect that he (as would I if I were in his position) want his team to exist no matter how unsuccessfull rather than cease to exist merge/be subsummed into a larger entity be it Team GB or and a formal 32 county side
You make a good point. Purely for argument's sake, as successful as we might be if the FAI were ever to be subsumed by, say, the Brazilian football association, such would never interest me. Would it interest anyone? Some things are more important than success. I'm happy supporting a squad of perennial nearly-men ranked 19th in the world who make the odd finals every once in a blue moon so long as I can identify with them and they represent me. I'd support them no matter where they were ranked. I would have difficulty supporting them, however, if we were ranked first but part of some Brazilian-Irish composite team. The point of international football isn't purely success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newryrep
Fair play.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Out of interest, what's your own background?
Laudable it in itself but really no logical reason why teams like them continue to exist, whilst far more credible regions like the Basque Country, Kashmir, Quebec, Catalonia and Tibet aren't allowed to have their own teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Newryrep
What next;The Falklands, St.Helena?
Quebec? I don't think you know what you are talking about there brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Just by the way but Montreal Impact had a québécois fleur de lis flag at the game yesterday as opposed to the Canadian standard. Interesting statement - separatist bast@rds!
Erm, I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
How do you figure Quebec have more of a right to an international team than Northern Ireland?
I will admit only a vague awareness, at best of the Quebec matter, up to it being mentioned here, but did have a quick Google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_...ignty_movement
They voted twice to stay in Canada. Case closed. Any province wishing to get out of Confederation needs to get 7 out of 10 provinces which must represent at least a two-thirds majority in total population. Hence, you can't secede without Ontario, Quebec, and either all five out of the eight remaining provinces. It will never, ever, ever happen and nobody here in Canada has talked about it happening for well over fifteen years now. Whoever brought them into the conversation had better give himself a slap as have absolutely no right to call themselves a country and are not represented as a country in any sport whatsoever, nor thave they ever been.
It really depends on how you define country. If you equate country to sovereign state, Quebec isn't a country.
The Quebecois provincial government does have more power than the Stormont Assembly though.
Canada itself is one of, if not the single most de-centralised governments in the world. Every provincial government has enormous power in comparison to the Stormont Assembly. Does this mean that Canada should have ten provincial teams instead of one national one? No, of course not.
It does demonstrate the privileged position that the home nations find themselves in though.
And it probably doesn't run a 40% annual budget deficit like Stormont either!Quote:
Originally Posted by punkrocket