Sporting Fingal Gone Belly Up

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

I stand corrected on the use of the wrong word, I should have said "allegedly" open league, which would get me around all areas. The lack of a pyramid in Ireland makes the game unattractive for all sorts of reasons, though maybe it's just hard experience of trying to amke sense of the situation that makes me see it this way. I guess if people wanted it to change, there would be a grass roots upheaval, however it seems (as stated in the Indo so it must be true) the FAI boss has the support and tender love of the grassroots so all is well in the state of Denmark.

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Well, I've decided you are right regards a pyramid structure. Would you think the below is possible?
Rough Draft Pyramid Structure:
Level 1: Premier Division
Level 2: Division One
Level 3: Division Two North & South (2 Divisions)
Level 4: Intermediate League One (4 Divisions)
Level 5: Intermediate League Two (8 Divisions)
Level 6: Intermediate League Three (16 Divisions)
Level 7: 32 District Leagues

I can see merit now on a pyramid system. It is something Gaelic clubs have in their favour, the goal of promotion from Junior to Intermediate to Senior and then St. Patrick's Day in Croke Park.
I've looked around at some clubs and while the higher levels would be beyond them, even levels 5 and 6 would be a boost and would create interest. I'd agree also it probably would lead to funding locally becoming available to improve facilities when moving up levels. Hopefully something like this in the long-term could be come a possibility. Until then, the A Championship is the best interim solution.

Getting back to Fingal, I think they have a good long-term future. They might have to go through a few years of hardship and maybe Division One football but they will build and be a strong club in their community when the stadium is built.

A pyramid structure is nice idea but do we have enough players & teams that want the hassle of progressing up the leagues?

There is a huge cost involved, financially for the clubs & time-wise for the players but with very little reward. Players get paid more in the 10th level of English football than the lower parts of the Irish first Div

I have to admit I don't know enough myself about the Munster, Ulster and Leinster Senior Leagues and the District Leagues to answer that. From what I can gather, there is 96 intermediate clubs in the FAI Intermerdiate Cup this season.
Spudulika was speaking from experience of where a pyramid structure was introduced in other countries and it has helped the game develop and be more attractive for sponsors. Also where clubs believed they could not meet the grounds criteria, when the rules came in the will and money seemed to become available to make it happen. I think it is doable in time and would be the ideal. The ideal is not always the realistic reality though.

'Play your cards right and you could be up against the might of Mervue United one day. A sponsor's dream.'

That's an excellent start legendz, while I agree with Bunny (in terms of what players get in England), we have to start somewhere and it will lead to a growth of the game as sponsors and investors will take an interest. It will be 2-3 years in taking off, then you'll get sides appearing in the 3rd and 4th levels who will bring good crowds and money with them.

Is there 96 intermediate clubs altogether in the country? A 3 tier Intermediate league could be the way to start. Have 32 district leagues feeding into 8 divisions of 14 clubs, that's 4 regions feeding into every one division. Have the 8 divisions then feeding into 4 Divisions of 14 clubs each on the next level up and these 4 feeding into 2 divisions of 14 clubs each at the top tier of Intermediate football. In terms of numbers of clubs it'd work out 196 clubs. With 96 clubs already at that level, on average, 3 clubs would have to join from each district league.

With any new enterprise some clubs will baulk at it, especially owning or having long leases on their own grounds, however this gives greater security to the local authorities, plus clubs can then get themselves moving financially. It would be the greatest of innovations for the LOI and imagine an FAI Cup that had prelim rounds! With clubs joining in after each step, there would be plenty of football, plenty of competition and this is what will lift the game. As well as spread it! As it stands the GAA (and rugby to a lesser degree) have the local markets sown up, mainly because each club has a parish and uses this identity. While I love GAA, it would have to up it's game (and bring back the NL in Autumn) to compete.

The FAI cup does have preliminary rounds. And indeed clubs can qualify via the intermediate and junior cups.

I like the idea of a proper, integrated pyramid, but I think some people here are getting massively carried away with the difference it would make to the top end of football in this country.

Yeah, 16 intermediate clubs and 4 Junior Clubs already qualify for the FAI Cup. They play in the first two rounds before LoI sides join in Round 3.
It is a good idea (the integrated pyramid). Whether workable, I was sceptical at first. The A Championship is a good interim league at the moment but long-term it should be the goal. It's good to get people's views on it anyway because some areas will support it where other areas won't. I wouldn't go as far to say it'd make a massive difference at the top but there's bound to be more respect for clubs at the higher levels.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

With any new enterprise some clubs will baulk at it, especially owning or having long leases on their own grounds, however this gives greater security to the local authorities, plus clubs can then get themselves moving financially. It would be the greatest of innovations for the LOI and imagine an FAI Cup that had prelim rounds! With clubs joining in after each step, there would be plenty of football, plenty of competition and this is what will lift the game. As well as spread it! As it stands the GAA (and rugby to a lesser degree) have the local markets sown up, mainly because each club has a parish and uses this identity. While I love GAA, it would have to up it's game (and bring back the NL in Autumn) to compete.

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I can only look to my home county. If the Kerry District League fed into an Intermediate league of 8 divisions at that level, I think the top sides would get by ok in a League with probably the two Limerick Junior Leagues and Cork West being fed into the same division. Every step clubs go up, the geographical spreads of clubs has to get wider.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

I like the idea of a proper, integrated pyramid, but I think some people here are getting massively carried away with the difference it would make to the top end of football in this country.

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I like it too, but there could be a bigger difference than you think. Exactly where would the new Derry and Cork teams have been slotted into a pyramid? The cost of going bust would be a good bit higher.

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Originally Posted by John83

I like it too, but there could be a bigger difference than you think. Exactly where would the new Derry and Cork teams have been slotted into a pyramid? The cost of going bust would be a good bit higher.

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Both Derry and Cork were slotted into Division One this season. The FAI seemed to decide there was no call to demote them as far as the A Championship. I'm sure they'll always find some way like this. A gap has to be created somewhere by a team being demoted in the first place.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Both Derry and Cork were slotted into Division One this season. The FAI seemed to decide there was no call to demote them as far as the A Championship. I'm sure they'll always find some way like this. A gap has to be created somewhere by a team being demoted in the first place.

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The reason/excuse for them getting into the First Division was that they applied for and achieved First Division licences while none of the A Championship clubs did. A more integrated and mature pyramid might have more clubs looking for and getting higher licences as a matter of course which would make any fudges more difficult.

Clubs have been relegated by other associations before. Rules can be inserted that in terms of demotions for breaches, it's down to the FAI to determine what punishment should be applied and how severe the demotion should be. Integrity is maintained as long as clubs who rightfully win promotion are not hindered.

Cork were a new club though so there couldn't really be a rule about them coming at a particular level.

There still could if it was some rule about the area and maybe the introduction of a new club like that but 3 levels down etc.

That's a very good point about punishing those clubs that ditch their debts. Mind you they should be starting in the A championship as it is.

I agree with Mr A's last post, John 83 is spot on regarding clubs who mess up. Can you imagine if there was a 7 level system in Irish football, Shels, by now, would be up at the 5th, Derry and Cork would both be topping their 7th level leagues, while other clubs would be more motivated to take on a fallen giant, so to speak.

And this is what I meant by clubs baulking at it, and how difficult it would be to get it to happen. Would a turkey vote for christmas? And we know there are lots of turkeys in our leagues! It can only be done if it comes from the top down and bottom up, and this is what I meant by a closed league which suits both the powers that be and the clubs. We had the joke this year of Cork, who were conveniently used as whipping boys to distract from funny business elsewhere. Derry and themselves were both handed tickets into the 2nd tier because they applied for licences? Which goes to show how the league cannot continue like this. While lots of mud is thrown at Sporting Fingal, they were lumped into the league ahead of time and have been getting along nicely. Remember they originally went for the A Championship, in the real world they would have started in the 7th level. As it stands our system doesn't work.

As for developing clubs, a tight criteria on ground safety and standards would for clubs to shape up or ship out, and ambitious, dedicated and hard working clubs would soon overtake those who feel it's their right to house supporters in squalor and have barely passable facilities for players. Though I cannot see any change in structure coming for at least another decade, by then the good work being done at so many clubs and in many areas around the country will count for nothing.

While I wouldn't agree with all of The Genesis report, it stated the following:
UEFA Perspective
UEFA are increasingly taking more regulatory control in the affairs of domestic
football in Europe:
• Club licensing raising the bar in all aspects of operations. UEFA licensing is likely to see standards to
be raised and tightened even further.
• UEFA taking a strong stance on the running of domestic leagues
o Striving for National Associations to control domestic leagues
o A pyramid structure with the league at the pinnacle
o Setting development of club football as a key priority
o Adopting a more interventionist strategy.

• The League is a central cog in the FAI Technical Plan. It is critical
that a strong domestic league acts as the pinnacle of the football pyramid
and pathway to create an integrated development structure. The league is
of key strategic importance to football in Ireland.

Community Links
The clubs must focus on building strong links and associations with their local
communities, both from a playing and non-playing perspective. On the playing side,
the league club should act as the pinnacle of football in the area in a pyramid
structure. The clubs should have the capability to recruit, coach and retain local
talent from under age through to the Senior team. Ideally, the club should work in
partnership with all clubs in its area to support the development of players and
create a genuine partnership between the local amateur clubs and the league club.
As outlined above, each amateur club/league should be attached to a league club.

For this to work efficiently the issue of compensation to
amateur/schoolboy clubs/leagues should be addressed and a clear
protocol agreed.
Off the field, the clubs should invest in building closer relationships with the local
schools, clubs, and the community in general. There are numerous examples of
innovative community-based schemes in sports throughout the world. For example,
most UK clubs operate a ‘Football in the Community’ scheme. Bolton Wanderers’
scheme included over 20,000 adults and children last year in a diverse range of
activities. By developing community-based schemes, clubs can attract new fans to
the club and strengthen the loyalties of longer established supporters.
It is possible that public funding may be available for Football in the Community
officers to be appointed at league clubs. This should be pursued aggressively.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

Cork were a new club though so there couldn't really be a rule about them coming at a particular level.

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Presumably they'd argue they were the best qualified of the A Championship teams, just as Fingal were when Kilkenny left.

The Genesis Report has been discredited so many ways that it really shouldn't be allowed in any serious discussion.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Presumably they'd argue they were the best qualified of the A Championship teams, just as Fingal were when Kilkenny left.

The Genesis Report has been discredited so many ways that it really shouldn't be allowed in any serious discussion.

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I wouldn't knock all points made in the report, especially regards a pyramid structure.

Given that the report was seemingly put together by monkeys with typewriters, any vaguely sensible recommendations are likely to be pure chance. Which means that they're perfectly admissable in a discussion if and only if they're separately backed-up. Which means that the Genesis Report - being written by monkeys with typewriters - can be dismissed.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

While lots of mud is thrown at Sporting Fingal, they were lumped into the league ahead of time and have been getting along nicely. Remember they originally went for the A Championship, in the real world they would have started in the 7th level. As it stands our system doesn't work.

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More likely, they'd have done an MK Dons and bought out a club at level three or four.

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Originally Posted by micls

Is it? If football was about entertainment and atmosphere then last season we would have had 0 fans. Football is about identifying and supporting your local team. It can be incredibly boring, most clubs dont have a great atmosphere every game, but it's part of what you are, so you go and you support YOUR team. And when the good times and entertainment comes it's all the sweeter.

For any die hard football fan it's about a lot more than entertainment and atmosphere. To casual fans and teenagers you may be right.

None of the above shows any reason for excluding Monaghan though. If we excluded every club that wasn't entertaining or had a good atmosphere then we'd be left with about 3 clubs a year.

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Football properly played - the kind of attacking, passing, skillful way that Fingal play - is by definition entertaining. It's hardly something that only teenagers and casual fans find important. Fingal play the game as it should be played and for that reason if we do go t**s up then it'll be a tragedy for the league. Fingal's support increased steadily over 2010, due to large part to how they play the game. We're doing the right thing. Attendences will grow because people want to see the beautiful game played beautifully.

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Originally Posted by bingoballs

No disrespect to Fingal fans but I wouldn't be sorry to see them going belly up. Whats their average home attendance? When they went 2-1 up against Shams in a Dublin derby in Tallaght you would imagine their fans would have gone mad, all eight of them did alright! Surely they are relying on European qualification to fund themselves for next season. They have a handful of fans and should they qualify for Europe, they would only be depriving Sligo Rovers or Pats fans a European adventure that their seasons truely deserve.

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There were 100 + of us at that match. A few more than '8' or a 'handful'. Numbers are growing all the time...wait and see!

We are waiting...
Hopped in here thinking that you were making the fabled announcement.
Ah well... we live in hope.
But seriously, b2bw, ye do play a variety of attractive football, but give over your talk, you make it sound like Arsenal are playing in Morton.

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Originally Posted by born2bwild

It's hardly something that only teenagers and casual fans find important.

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Who said it was?

There's a difference between finding it important and it being the reason you follow your team.

Sure they're only new. Support will come along eventually and they're in a catchment area, North County Dublin, where no other clubs have a definite support base.

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Originally Posted by RahenyBohs

Sure they're only new. Support will come along eventually and they're in a catchment area, North County Dublin, where no other clubs have a definite support base.

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Apparently they've enquired to Shels about renting Tolka next season, Sporting Dublin City Council would be a more apt name for the club if that happens

Smart move. They really need a bigger stadium.

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Originally Posted by total hoofball

Apparently they've enquired to Shels about renting Tolka next season, Sporting Dublin City Council would be a more apt name for the club if that happens

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hardly a major geographical switch if true and certainly unlikely to have much impact on crowds one way or the other. still sourcing a new ground hardly backs up the "fingal going bust theory".

Tolka is more of a footballing stadium, it'd be a good move until they can set-up base in Lusk whenever that might happen.

It's also Shels' home ground; we've seen what's happened Rovers and Dublin City when they've been groundsharing in areas where their rivals are established (as much as anyone in this league is established in their area).

Also, I'd be surprised if Lusk didn't go the way of Bohs, Pat's, Shels, Cork and Drogheda's (and Derry's?) new ground plans. Bit of a trend there...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's also Shels' home ground; we've seen what's happened Rovers and Dublin City when they've been groundsharing in areas where their rivals are established (as much as anyone in this league is established in their area).

Also, I'd be surprised if Lusk didn't go the way of Bohs, Pat's, Shels, Cork and Drogheda's (and Derry's?) new ground plans. Bit of a trend there...

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If I were in charge of Fingal, I'd get into Lusk as soon as possible. Even if they had to play in a field. Get onto the site by whatever means you can, throw up a fence, some turnstiles, and a small stand (the Rehab Bingo stand in Bray can't have cost much!), and do the bare minimum to get licensing. All the fancy stuff can come later, but they have to start building their fan base in Lusk now. Could building a small, tidy, interim ground really cost that much more than the rent on Tolka would?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's also Shels' home ground; we've seen what's happened Rovers and Dublin City when they've been groundsharing in areas where their rivals are established (as much as anyone in this league is established in their area).

Also, I'd be surprised if Lusk didn't go the way of Bohs, Pat's, Shels, Cork and Drogheda's (and Derry's?) new ground plans. Bit of a trend there...

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yea, agree 100%. I suspect Sporting fingals proposed new stadium may well go "on the long finger" especially as the clubs main funder is hardly likely to be putting much money up. i seem to recall that some deal had been agreed so may be some way up road ?

cant see any new stadia built any time soon given the economic situation

Bohs could try to sell them Dalymount maybe??

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Bohs could try to sell them Dalymount maybe??

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..........Only if they agree to buy it TWICE :cool:

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Bohs could try to sell them Dalymount maybe??

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lessons on business administration from a Limerick fan?!?!?! :eek::p

Lessons on business administration from a Limerick fan to a Bohs fan

So I think we can allow it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Lessons on business administration from a Limerick fan to a Bohs fan

So I think we can allow it.

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hey hey - sure Bohs are in a spot of bother for now but we're not the ones who reformed 37 times or something (thats what the 37 referred to, right?) ;) ;)