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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible
'Leave' campaigners are already resigning, dodging, squirming and pushing off the triggering of article 50, but is there any other alternative to actually going through with it? Can the government/parliament just ignore a referendum result, even if they don't actually want anything to do with it (as is so patently the case)? It would be audacious and there'd be a lot of ultra-unhappy Brexiters. I dread to think what the political climate - already somewhere between unpleasant and nasty - would be like if Brexiters were to realise they'd been had by a bunch of cowardly, careerist charlatans
Aye, the Govt can wheedle out of it- by giving Parliament (currently about 80-20 for Remain) the final say. Or by having another referendum, or a series, until the result changes. Remember, this is a country which has some flunkey in knickerbockers carrying an outsize gold-plated broomstick supposedly administering our legislature.You have to laugh etc.
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Farage ducking out of accountability now too is farcical. He's bragging about "victory" yet article 50 hasn't even been triggered. If he had any credibility or conviction, he'd see this mess out and continue pressing on the matter to finality and then ensure stability, but, no, he's just another con-man
While taking it as read that Nige's politics make him a complete c*nt, there are other factors. Including poor health- he's survived cancer and a plane crash. Or the widely-rumored scandal about to break, whether sexual, financial or otherwise. And as most hacks agree, he's not a details guy. I wouldn't be sure they'll win many seats in the next election, regardless of who leads.
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I'm not an economist, nor would I have any confidence remotely in discussing economics, so I can only leave that to others with a much greater degree of expertise and literacy in the sphere than myself; David McWilliams, for example (and as we discussed before), made a good economic case for unity in May (taking Brexit into account) and Michael Burke's analysis (in which he asserted that unity could benefit the island by €35.6 billion over eight years) has been accepted by other economists (unionist Newton Emerson, for example) as sound
I scraped through A-Level (the teacher had an unrelated nervous breakdown). Thing is, as you admit you're using McWilliams and co not to discuss the economics (or even politics) but really as a counter-factual history. The Republic is claimed to be economically vibrant, socially-cohesive, post-religious and the rest, all to get even better IF the new 40% extra population join up voluntarily and don't start squabbling. It's a big if. I thought Emerson's background was as a journalist?
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But, essentially, nationalists/republicans have to be prepared to extend to unionists in a united Ireland what we expect for ourselves in the north at present. That all means, most likely, a new state, constitution (with emphasis on protection of rights), flag, symbolism, parity of esteem and institutions inclusive to all
One step at a time. What evidence is there that a majority of your fellow citizens want a new State, for fairly crucial example?
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I'd like to think a progressive political case could also be made. The same-sex marriage referendum was a real statement of social progression in the south - a sure sign of total departure from any hint or notion of "Rome rule" (a fear of which has been ingrained in unionist thinking for decades) - and another may soon follow on repealing the eighth amendment in respect of the virtual ban on abortion. I think that sort of momentum could (hopefully) win over liberal unionists who are turned off by the DUP's extreme social conservatism
I'm guessing broad attitudes to sexuality, abortion etc. are pretty similar North and South- see that joint survey by RTE and BBC last October. The divide isn't by nationality, but age basically. The DUP and TUV have tried to muddy this with their posturing, but I'm not convinced. They may have been trying to maintain a tribal politics where, regardless of issue, unionist and nationalist are duty bound to take different sides.
Unionist voters (whatever their psyche*) must have realised that 'Rome Rule' is as dead as the dodo. How long is it since the Casey scandal, 20 years?
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So, that considered, I don't think I personally could be accused of side-stepping the matter.
I don't think you've offered any real evidence of opinion in the South changing from ingrained partitionism. It's an essential first step which must precede a UI.
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As an aside, I think the good-will extended to the NI team from fans of our own team during the Euros probably also helped build a few bridges or at least convinced many northern unionists that their identity wouldn't actually be under threat in a new Ireland. It would be welcomed, protected and embraced
I was in the South of France for the first week (couldn't budget for Paris so only met a handful of your fans). It's well-known that your fans travel in huge number and widely-assumed they'll be popular with the locals. Perhaps a surprise that ours generally acted likewise, with very few examples of them taking over Ma Nolan's or the James Joyce for a Sash-fest. All that said, I doubt a few lovable drunks from either camp overloading youtube with their antics will change the way many vote. That's just wish fulfilment*, isn't it?
* good BBC doc on Freud the other day. My favorite bit was Carl Gustav Jung calling out Siggi's obsession with sex- which is a bit like Willie McCrea accusing Ian Paisley of being too Free Presbyterian...
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Yup, to be fair to the more-sensible UUP, they've been vocal about their concerns and the potential/foreseeable implications. I should have singled out the DUP, who are the significant/majority branch of political unionism at present (according to most recent voting anyway)
Yes, four Unionist parties contested (it was five with the hapless NI21 in 2014), but Arlene clearly has support right across Unionism, from the sink estates to rural hillbillies. Though that can change, it has before.
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The DUP trying to stymie the north-south forum idea (like how they effectively blocked the presidential Rising dinner in Belfast a few months back) is just so churlish and that sort of petty, negative carry-on will only prove self-destructive further down the line
Disagree. It's just politicking, we all do it. There are already talking shops, who needs another? Party Marty immediately and predictably went into pained Statesman mode. As for the other thing, I'm assured Michael D and his camp followers didn't go hungry.
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Also, I thought it was funny when Arlene (who I actually admire in an odd way, despite not agreeing with her on much, in contrast to the contempt in which I hold the likes of nincompoop Edwin Poots, wind-up Gregory Campbell or haughty Nelson McCausland) tweeted to wish us congratulations after our great victory over Italy
Good for Arlene. Naturally you had my support too, against Italy if not France. Just like youse were all cheering England against Slovakia when ye needed a favor ;)
For sheer dimness I'd put Mancausla ahead of the others. Probably kicked in the head too often playing rugger at Oxbridge.
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Originally Posted by BackS to the Wall
It is no longer ROI being asked to support this. It is the EU, and I would hope Europe would be willing to put their hands in their pocket to support reunification. Of the European capitals there would at least be ample sympathy in Berlin for putting a country back together again after partition
Sounds like more wishful thinking to me. Why would Germany or anybody else stump up cash for this? They haven't rushed to reunite Korea, Scandinavia or Yugoslavia last time I looked ;
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Originally Posted by Crafty Toepoke
On that note, do you guys really think the Westminster mandarin crew and hierarchy will actually let a misguided protest vote from provincial England undo all it threatens to ? Their place in the EU, the UK itself, etc etc. I can't see it happening and surely its just a matter of how gently this is news is broken to them, we have seen democracy used to further a career & win an election, and now we will see it being circumnavigated is my opinion, perhaps without it even going back to the people. No winners here
Don't know, honestly. Best ask Knickerbocker guy mentioned above.
