Another Nordie thread

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke
one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted.
In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland.
I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue.
It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go.

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I posted a clip which included highlights from the game in question. Amongst these was a fingertip save by Jennings from a "Hoddle Special" and an equally wondrous save by him where he tipped a Kerry Dixon effort over the bar. The Harlem Globetrotters could not have contrived such a conjuring trick.

Plus you have completely ignored the victory which England had previously achieved in Belfast, which meant that in order to achieve second place in the Group, NI needn't not only a draw at Wembley, but victories home and away against the Romania of Georgie Hagi etc.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that having already qualified, the England players will have been desperate to book their place in the squad for Mexico. Are you really contending that Kerry Dixon would deliberately miss chances for the sake of the NI team, when the battle for the centre forward spot in the England team was between him and Gary Lineker? :eek:

There is no point in arguing with you on this. I said before that anyone who professes to know anything about football and genuinely believes that this game was a fix, must be an idiot.

I don't believe you to be an idiot. Sadly, it is worse than that; by your persisting with your conspiracy theory, even in the face of all the evidence, I can only conclude that you are prejudiced, either against the English, the Northern Irish, or both.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Double Standards if ever there were.

The FAI asserts its right to pick any player born anywhere on the island. Fine. Yet it flies a flag and plays an Anthem with which a significant minority (1 million) does not identify.

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The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Therefore, if the FAI truly wants to be accessible to everyone in Ireland, this must mean adopting a neutral flag and anthem, plus the suppression of all divisive behaviour (e.g. booing of Rangers players, "Up the Ra" during FOA, "Stand Up if you hate the Brits" etc) by their fans.

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The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Otherwise, if they are not prepared to do so, then they are clearly not genuinely interested in attracting support from every Irish person, presumably because their definition of "Irishness" is essentially a political one.

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Like I said the FAI represents the country of Ireland. The fact that the FAI can pick players born in NI does not diverge from the fact that it represents the country of Ireland.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

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The FIFA eligibility issue was only recently resolved. Give the FAI time. :D

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Are you familiar with the phrase "Bloody Hypocrites"? :rolleyes:

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Familiar with the phrase you can't teach an old dog new tricks. You see the FAI as the root of evil attached to NI football, an opinion that has been long ingrained in your mind.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

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Clear policy? Alan Kernaghan?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I posted a clip which included highlights from the game in question. Amongst these was a fingertip save by Jennings from a "Hoddle Special" and an equally wondrous save by him where he tipped a Kerry Dixon effort over the bar. The Harlem Globetrotters could not have contrived such a conjuring trick.

Plus you have completely ignored the victory which England had previously achieved in Belfast, which meant that in order to achieve second place in the Group, NI needn't not only a draw at Wembley, but victories home and away against the Romania of Georgie Hagi etc.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that having already qualified, the England players will have been desperate to book their place in the squad for Mexico. Are you really contending that Kerry Dixon would deliberately miss chances for the sake of the NI team, when the battle for the centre forward spot in the England team was between him and Gary Lineker? :eek:

There is no point in arguing with you on this. I said before that anyone who professes to know anything about football and genuinely believes that this game was a fix, must be an idiot.

I don't believe you to be an idiot. Sadly, it is worse than that; by your persisting with your conspiracy theory, even in the face of all the evidence, I can only conclude that you are prejudiced, either against the English, the Northern Irish, or both.

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Ealing green I fear you protest too much.
Don't take it so seriously its only another man's opinion about some football games.
I will just ignore the personal abuse(oops)
Three games three right results for the teams that needed to qualify including the republic of Ireland.
If I am winding you up I do not mean to.I think you might be winding yourself up.
Northern did well in the other matches and did deserve to qualify but if you could find a neutral(on these boards) I believe they would be a bit suspicious of the result always working out.

On another point I would say that the present NI team would be as good (or nearly)as the team that qualified in 82/86 and I wonder does this show that it is harder to qualify for tournaments now

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Originally Posted by Kingdom Kerry

You might as well have shoved your degree because IMO you will never again see the loyalist team in the World Cup finals

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Given that we qualified three times when it was difficult, I reckon we've a decent chance of doing so again when it becomes easier (ie with 24 Euro places to scrap for). And maybe 48 in the WC?

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans)

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Almost all fans wear green; most banners feature the red hand. Sadly, despite searching high and low through the Maribor stadium, I couldn't see a single tricolor to reassure TP.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZQaL7eS3s

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

I would respectfully suggest that you are guilty of much greater naivity if you think that the behaviour of your supporters is in any way welcoming and inclusive. Never mind the grass roots initiatives, if you are in any way serious about attracting more nationalists to the NI team, get yourselves a neutral flag, a neutral anthem and enforce a ban on any emblems, flag, chants and songs that are explicitly partisan. If that is beyond you then maybe we should have an All Ireland team with neutral flag and anthem as the only means of banishing divisive and sectarian posturing at what should be sporting events

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I would respectfully suggest that you stop stirring the sh*t. We're not interested in an all-Ireland team nor scratching anyone else's team. Nobody is posturing bar you and some other comedians on this thread. Most of whom clearly haven't been near an NI game in years, if ever. Even if their mammy knows Pat Jennings and their anonymous mate's a journalist.

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Originally Posted by 1FK

Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out

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Thanks for your post, the content of which has been noted. Got a problem with "lassies"?

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Originally Posted by Seanfhear

Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted. In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland. I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue. It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go

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Ha ha. Are you on drugs? Even by the obsessive, wind-up standards on this thread, really...

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Originally Posted by third policeman

I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans)

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Really? And who were this lot in Maribor? Nigerians? You seem to misunderstand the difference between "Loyal" - as in "Loyal Supporters", a chant heard wherever football fans gather - and "Loyalist". The below picture is only one half of the NI tribune (I couldn't get a clear photo of the other end), but I see all sorts of banners there, with the overall impression of the fans themselves being a Sea of Green...
http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/upload/sport/tribuna1_1.jpg

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Originally Posted by ifk101

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.



The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.



Like I said the FAI represents the country of Ireland. The fact that the FAI can pick players born in NI does not diverge from the fact that it represents the country of Ireland.



The FIFA eligibility issue was only recently resolved. Give the FAI time. :D

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"Ireland", "island", "country", "national" etc - it's all semantic flim-flam.

The simple fact is that as far as the Irish Government is concerned, anyone born anywhere in Ireland is entitled to citizenship/Passport. Which the FAI then uses as the pretext for eligibility for the ROI side - which its supporters now assure us is a de facto All-Ireland side.

Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

You see the FAI as the root of evil attached to NI football, an opinion that has been long ingrained in your mind.

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Where did I ever apply the epithet "evil" (or anything like it) to the FAI? I think they've got a cheek, granted, but that's someway short of labelling them "satanic" etc.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Clear policy? Alan Kernaghan?

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First, Kernaghan was born in England, not NI.

Second, he was not wanted (stupidly, imo) by the IFA.

Third, in his desire to play international football, he is as likely to have approached the FAI as the other way round.

My point was that the evidence shows the FAI only approaches youngsters from the Nationalist community in NI, not from the Unionist community.

And the net effect of such a clearly discriminatory (true sense of the word)policy must be to reinforce further the divisions on this island, especially in NI.

In my opinion, this is disgraceful.

EG, for those that bring union jacks and display them, lets say some nationalist supporters brought a tri-colour, would you object to it being hung along with, and beside those Union jacks?

BTW, seanfhear, actuary is not a case of thought, but statistics, and its certainly not based on 3 games only. We got a draw, which wasn't a right result at the time, only in the end after the Denmark game was it "the right result". I can't say about the other games as I was too young but to try and suggest that the right result was agreed on and executed is beyond beleif, perhaps and this is perhaps, it came about by certain individuals but thats the closest you could realistically claim.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

First, Kernaghan was born in England, not NI.

Second, he was not wanted (stupidly, imo) by the IFA.

Third, in his desire to play international football, he is as likely to have approached the FAI as the other way round.

My point was that the evidence shows the FAI only approaches youngsters from the Nationalist community in NI, not from the Unionist community.

And the net effect of such a clearly discriminatory (true sense of the word)policy must be to reinforce further the divisions on this island, especially in NI.

In my opinion, this is disgraceful.

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You have left a bit of an open door here Ealing Green and I might as well walk in.
I hearby invite all players from whatever backround to avail of the present ruling from FIFA to exercise their right to play for the Republic of Ireland if they choose to do so.All are welcome.
My own preference is for a united Ireland team but nobody can have it all for the moment at any rate.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.

....The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.

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That's about it.
Looks like some NI soccer fans in the 6 counties have still got a lot of growing up to do.

FIFA is satisfied with the full Irish nationality automatically given at the time of birth to people born in the 6 counties.
That same 100% Irish nationality has already been accepted by the people of NI in a plebiscite and moved into NI constitution, a formal recognition that you can be born in the 6 counties and only regard yourself as 100% Irish.

Long before the FAI selected any NI born youngsters, as far back as when research was first done, the vast majority of NI Nationalists (who are soccer fans), identify first with the Republic. This identity was not in the least affected, one way or the other, by the selection of any number of nationalists on the NI team.

Is there one fan in the Republic who gives the slightest whohaw what religion Darron Gibson or Marc Wilson has?
While on the OWC board it caused some deal of consternation, how could Marc Wilson declare for the Republic? look where he grew up - he must have been a protestant etc etc.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

My own preference is for a united Ireland team

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:D

Unlucky.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

EG, for those that bring union jacks and display them, lets say some nationalist supporters brought a tri-colour, would you object to it being hung along with, and beside those Union jacks?

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Well I honestly can't imagine why any NI fan should want to bring a Tricolour to an NI match (at least where the ROI weren't the opposition).
If it were meant as a provocation, then i would condemn it, just as I have condemned the idiot who brought a King Billy flag to an NI game on one occasion, or those ROI fans who brought Palestinian flags to Lansdowne for the visit of Israel.
If, however, it were brought by someone who was genuine enough in his motives, but somewhat confused(!), it should be tolerated.
Anyhow, my point is that NI fans tend to bring four types of flag to NI games.
1. (Specially commissioned) Supporters' Club flags;
2. Green and White, or IFA, flags;
3. NI flags;
4. Union Flags.
As regards numbers, I would estimate that Union flags are by some way the fewest (and decreasing?). Personally, I think them inappropriate for a number of reasons, although technically the Union Flag is the official flag of NI.
As for NI flags, though no longer possessing official status, this is the flag which FIFA and UEFA both use, and it is uniquely Northern Irish. Of course, I accept it is also one flown e.g. by Loyalist paramilitaries etc, but that should not be an excuse for us not to use it (imo). Otherwise, the ROI should not use the Tricolour, since that is used by Republican Paramilitaries, or England fans should not fly the Cross of St.George, since Combat 18 etc fly that one.
Anyhow, I would estimate the first two categories outnumber the third, which far outnumbers the fourth. Which, combined with the ubiquitous wearing of green (home) and white (away) replica tops, creates the overwheming impression of a Sea of Green (and White) wherever we go.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

BTW, seanfhear, actuary is not a case of thought, but statistics, and its certainly not based on 3 games only. We got a draw, which wasn't a right result at the time, only in the end after the Denmark game was it "the right result". I can't say about the other games as I was too young but to try and suggest that the right result was agreed on and executed is beyond beleif, perhaps and this is perhaps, it came about by certain individuals but thats the closest you could realistically claim.

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Glad to see you've not lost your senses completely, Paul! ;)

Something else which the conspiracy theorists overlook is the fact that if it ever got out that the English FA had connived in fixing the result, they (and NI) would have been thrown out of the Finals and heavily fined, suspended etc.
Indeed, such a disclosure would be used as an excuse by those who resent the UK having 4 separate teams to insist on a single UK team in future (and with good reason, i'd have to admit)
Or if it had been individual England players who fixed it by going easy (e.g. Kerry Dixon deliberately missing sitters), not only would they have been doing harm in the eyes of the manager to their chances of getting picked in the World Cup itself, but if it emerged that they had so cheated, that would have been the end of their football career - both country and club.
Does anyone credibly believe that the likes of Glenn Hoddle would take such a risk, on behalf of e.g. Pat Jennings?

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

You have left a bit of an open door here Ealing Green and I might as well walk in.
I hearby invite all players from whatever backround to avail of the present ruling from FIFA to exercise their right to play for the Republic of Ireland if they choose to do so.All are welcome.

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Although I personally regret that FIFA tolerates such a situation, you must be entitled to make such an invitation. However, whilst the FAI insists on only using the emblems and symbols of one of the two main communities on this island, also only one of the two political jurisdictions, then it will never be acceptable to a sizeable minority of the very same Irish people it purports to attract.
Unless, of course, the FAI is not actually interested in attracting those Irish people from the Unionist community on the island, in which case that is a disgracefully prejudiced and hypocritical attitude to take.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

My own preference is for a united Ireland team but nobody can have it all for the moment at any rate.

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You could have it tomorrow if the FAI realised the error of its ways, accepted they were misguided to split back in 1921, and asked to be readmitted to the IRISH Football Association ("Original and Best"). All are welcome. ;)

For myself, unlike a seemingly large percentage of ROI fans, I am not so unhappy with, or lukewarm about, my international team that I would want it to disappear, whether that be into a United Ireland team or a United Kingdom team (or a United Nations team, for that matter)

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Originally Posted by geysir

That's about it.
Looks like some NI soccer fans in the 6 counties have still got a lot of growing up to do... ...you can be born in the 6 counties and only regard yourself as 100% Irish.

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Aside from the fact that it is hardly very grown up to insist on typing out "the 6 counties" when NI is both quicker and more accurate, it is you whose understanding is somewhat limited. For you see, opting to play for the NI team does not make someone more British/less Irish, or automatically a Unionist/no longer a Nationalist.
Gerry Armstrong, for instance, was brought up on the Falls, with a Nationalist background. As a boy, he was proud to represent with distinction his local GAA club when they played at Croke Park under the Tricolour, to the sound of the SS etc.
Later as an adult, he was equally proud to represent NI with similar distinction, under the NI flag and anthem.
Certainly, when he scored the winner the first time NI played the ROI in his home city, I didn't sense any less joy in his celebrations than when e.g. he scored the winner over Spain in Valencia in 1982!
He had no problem in maintaining a sense of perspective over such matters, nor did any of his teammates, managers, supporters etc, so why cannot everyone else?
In the end, if other people insist on ascribing overriding political significance to a sportsman representing his own wee patch of land in a sporting challenge against someone elses patch, then that is their problem, not the sportsman's.
P.S. I am Irish and I daresay as Irish as you - regardless of our respective political affiliations. This is because I was born in Northern IRELAND. As it happens, my maternal grandparents were both born in what is now the Irish Republic. However, had I been good enough, there is no question of which of the two Associations for which I was eligible I would have preferred to represent: it would have had to have been that in whose jurisdiction I was born and brought up. Simple, really. (Of course, in doing so I would have had to tolerate standing up for GSTQ before NI games, but I would have found this no greater hardship e.g. than when I stood up for the Soldiers Song at Lansdowne before Ireland rugby games)

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Originally Posted by geysir

Long before the FAI selected any NI born youngsters, as far back as when research was first done, the vast majority of NI Nationalists (who are soccer fans), identify first with the Republic. This identity was not in the least affected, one way or the other, by the selection of any number of nationalists on the NI team.

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I don't know when this research you refer to was first conducted, but I doubt whether it predated the first rolling of Big Jack's Bandwagon. In which case it is hardly a definitive guide to the attitude of NI nationalists towards the NI team. After all, it would postdate 65 (arguably 106) years of the actual experience of supporting the NI team. These are years which, inter alia, include the appointment of Nationalist/Catholics as President of the IFA, or manager or trainer or captain of the NI team etc, all factors which would have encouraged Nationalists to support, as well as participate in, the team - as I well remember from my own direct experience.
It would also postdate e.g. the period in the 60's/70's when the ROI went six years without a home win, a time when I don't recall anyone in NI giving a flying fcuk about football south of the border...:eek:
P.S. I don't know when you imagine the FAI first selected NI born players, but you might Google "Tommy Donnelly" or "Mick Hoy", for example. Or any of the number of NI-born players who represented both Associations. You might even further your education by researching those ROI-born players who agreed to represent the IFA - sometimes even in preference to the FAI. Of course, these were all before 1950, when both Associations came to a Gentleman's Agreement not to pick players born in each other's jurisdiction. So while you're at it, you might then Google "Gentleman's Agreement" and forward your findings to the fine Gentlemen (and Ladies) of the FAI...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by geysir

Is there one fan in the Republic who gives the slightest whohaw what religion Darron Gibson or Marc Wilson has?
While on the OWC board it caused some deal of consternation, how could Marc Wilson declare for the Republic? look where he grew up - he must have been a protestant etc etc.

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Re Gibson, whilst I regret the precedent he represents, I have no practical regrets whatever that he is no longer available to us, not least since at the last count, we now have at least 8 midfielders (6 of them central midfielders) whom I would pick before him.
As for Marc Wilson, I have seen it written that he is Protestant. That said, he was brought up in Aghagallon, which is apparently 96.6% Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghagallon )
Either way, I couldn't give a flying one what religion he is. Moreover, I don't care that he represents the ROI, for two reasons. First, it was he who approached the FAI, not the other way round, following a falling out by him with the IFA. And if he doesn't want to play for us...
Second, I am led to believe by a seemingly reliable source that one of Wilson's grandfathers is from Dublin.
You're welcome to him.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

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Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.
.:rolleyes:

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Ingenious argument EG but I can think of one crucial difference. The people that are being "excluded" by the national emblems of the ROI team dont actually live in the ROI and dont identify with its politics or culture (Although it could be argued that their tradition is represented fairly prominently on its national flag). The people who are excluded by the overtly unionist iconography that surrounds the NI team are your neighbours and fellow citizens.

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive. It's sad that you cannot manage to do this with respect to the obviously divided community in NI. I also think its lame to suggest that if the politicians cannot manage it, then its not up to football to resolve this. Football is potentially one of the things that could unite people in NI and transcend historic communal loyalties. It's just sad that the IFA and evidently most NI fans either cannot grasp this.

PS Yes I do choose to take your testimony about the inclusiveness of the culture at NI games with a pinch of salt, because it conflicts with the evidence of someone who I have known for many years and whose profession requires him to be objective and accurate.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.

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And what I wrote was

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Originally Posted by ifk101

EG - the onus is on the IFA to make the NI football team more accessible for everyone in NI as a large minority of the population does not identify with the team. Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out.

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Where exactly am I urging the IFA to "adopt" neutral anything?

Prejudiced and hyprocritical :rolleyes:

Your opinion is so coloured that you are assuming and reading things that aren't there.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Ingenious argument EG but I can think of one crucial difference. The people that are being "excluded" by the national emblems of the ROI team dont actually live in the ROI and dont identify with its politics or culture (Although it could be argued that their tradition is represented fairly prominently on its national flag). The people who are excluded by the overtly unionist iconography that surrounds the NI team are your neighbours and fellow citizens.

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Straw Man. It is not for the people of NI - Nationalist or Unionist - to dictate to the FAI what emblems it may/should use, only the FAI can/may do so.
And if the FAI is going to exploit the Irish Government's Nationality provisions for the purposes of footballing eligibility, neither can any of us stop them doing so, even in a manner which discriminates (proper sense of the word) in both practice and imagery in favour of Nationalists from NI and against Unionists. (Even though I think it disgraceful, since it is effectively creating a sort of "sporting Apartheid" in NI).

My point, however, is that any supporter of the ROI team who points the finger at NI for employing partisan symbols and images etc is being a prize hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive. It's sad that you cannot manage to do this with respect to the obviously divided community in NI.

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I think part of the problem here is one of terminology. When you (and others) say "neutral", I think you mean non-partisan.
I do not see why the NI team should use "neutral" imagery (e.g. the flag of FIFA, or the United Nations etc), when no other of the 208 FIFA Members are required to do so.
As for the fact that out of political considerations, a section of the NI population doesn't not like the NI symbols which we currently employ, then that is hardly anything unique. Many countries have a minority (e.g. Spanish Basques or Catalans) which don't like the nation which they live in. However, I don't hear anyone demanding that the Spanish FA e.g. cease using the Spanish flag because it has a Crown on it.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive. It's sad that you cannot manage to do this with respect to the obviously divided community in NI.

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Any all-Ireland team should be non-partisan (imo), since it would be representing two jurisdictions ("parts") of the island. I think that goes pretty much without saying - though the IRFU has recently managed to ignore that.
No matter, there is not an all-Ireland football team, there is not going to be one in the foreseeable future (imo), so I fail to see what such a hypothetical example adds to the debate.
Btw, I also think it sad that many Nationalists in NI cannot set aside their political prejudices when it comes to their choice of football team, now that there is no effective barrier to anyone joining in in support of the team. By the same token, I find it highly disappointing that certain Loyalists cannot do so, either, when they prefer to follow England, on account of the NI team not being "British" enough for them...:eek:
Anyhow, you cannot force people; just as it is their choice, it is also their loss...

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Originally Posted by third policeman

I also think its lame to suggest that if the politicians cannot manage it, then its not up to football to resolve this. Football is potentially one of the things that could unite people in NI and transcend historic communal loyalties. It's just sad that the IFA and evidently most NI fans either cannot grasp this.

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Let's be honest about this. If the flag and anthem were changed, what barriers (if any) would remain to prevent NI Nationalists supporting NI?
And while you're pondering this, let me state my views on these factors. I have long wanted to see GSTQ replaced, essentially for two reasons. First, it is the Anthem of the UK, but we are not a UK team. Therefore I would like it replaced by something like Danny Boy - not because such a tune is "neutral", or even "non-partisan" (though it is both), but rather because it is distinctively "Norn Iron". Second, because it is a dreary and uninspiring dirge (imo), with no reference to football or NI.
As for the flag, do you accept that NI has, like every other FIFA Member, to have its own flag? If so, the "proper" (official) flag would have to be the Union Flag. Yet I do not support that, since like GSTQ, it is not distinctively "Norn Iron". Therefore, that leaves us with the NI flag.
Now I have no special thoughts on that flag either way. Indeed, if our political representatives were to agree to a new flag for NI, then I would have no problem in adopting whatever they came up with.
In the meantime, however, we are left with what we have. and as I always say to anyone who doesn't like it: "Don't fly it, then - just wave a green and white flag, if you must.
But on this subject, generally, I will make two points. First, I do not see why a mere flag and a 90 second Anthem should deter anyone from supporting NI, if they really want to. After all, when i used to go to Lansdowne to follow the Ireland rugby team, it was no great hardship that they played the SS (twice!) and waved Tricolours on all sides of me. Big Deal.
Second, for some (many?) Nationalists in NI, no team which calls itself "Northern Ireland" will ever be acceptable, even if they were all to play in Green shirts, White shorts and Oranges socks, all wear Gerry Adams masks and all stop play to stand for "Sean South of Garryowen" every five minutes.
In the end, we are the Northern Ireland team, and so long as there is nothing offensive or discriminatory (correct sense) in our practices and procedures, we should not have to apologise for that. People must decide for themselves whether they join in with us or not - all who do so are welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by third policeman

PS Yes I do choose to take your testimony about the inclusiveness of the culture at NI games with a pinch of salt, because it conflicts with the evidence of someone who I have known for many years and whose profession requires him to be objective and accurate.

---

Ah, the old "(unnamed) mate argument".
Listen, you don't have to take my word for it over his (though I'd be interested to know whether he his experience dates as far back as my own).
Instead, you only have to take the testimony of one of your own fellow ROI fans, Gspain, when he wrote:
"I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green.
GSTQ is played beforehand but if it is really that offensive to stand for it you can always disappear to the toilet for a couple of minutes or arrive late."
Or if that's not good enough for you, why not accept the testimony, commendations and awards etc of FIFA, UEFA, the City of Brussels, the NI Community Relations Council, SARI, the Strathclyde Police etc etc etc.
No?
OK, well here's an even better one. You have stated that you have a source for tickets at the IFA. Why not take him/her up on that and go to a game yourself?
Or are you afraid that the evidence of your own eyes and ears would contradict what you appear to believe to date? :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ifk101

And what I wrote was



Where exactly am I urging the IFA to "adopt" neutral anything?

Prejudiced and hyprocritical :rolleyes:

Your opinion is so coloured that you are assuming and reading things that aren't there.

---

What I posted was "if" (you are urging etc).
This followed your bringing up the topic of neutral symbols etc.
I do not propose any "neutral" symbols etc, for any National team.

Anyhow, are that the best nail you can hang me on from what I've posted? If so, I think I must be doing OK.

Unless, of course, you're not doing very well...;)

[QUOTE]
Y

Quote:

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ou could have it tomorrow if the FAI realised the error of its ways, accepted they were misguided to split back in 1921, and asked to be readmitted to the IRISH Football Association ("Original and Best"). All are welcome. ;)

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I do actually agree with you on that point and the FAI should not have broken away.As they were the ones that did break away they should admit that it was a mistake and ask for the re-unification of the two FAs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

:D

Unlucky.

---

maybe surprisingly to some but sometimes I do get lucky :D

EG, I’m not sure that posting a few utube links of ni fans singing really proves your point, one could post links of fans singing ‘God Save The Queen’ or shouting the loyalist ‘No surrender’ during the English anthem or singing ‘ Ten German bombers’ or ‘The Sash’ to counter your argument of a changed atmosphere among the support or an embracing of 'Football For All'.

So it does not really wash!

One could also point to the singing of ‘Rule Brittania’, The Dambusters & ‘The Famine Song’ at the game in Slovenia as another example of ‘business as usual’ among some in the ni fan base.(As well as apeing Glasgow Rangers supporters)

As regards banners, not sure why ni fans have recently started hanging a large ‘ God Save The Queen’ banner behind the goal at games or why they saw the need to celebrate Healy’s playing of the flute with ‘Our Culture Is Not A Crime’ banner.

Hardly any more football related than bringing flags with the names ofloyalist flute bands on them to games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

And if the FAI is going to exploit the Irish Government's Nationality provisions for the purposes of footballing eligibility, neither can any of us stop them doing so, even in a manner which discriminates (proper sense of the word) in both practice and imagery in favour of Nationalists from NI and against Unionists. (Even though I think it disgraceful, since it is effectively creating a sort of "sporting Apartheid" in NI).

---

Nothing to do with the Irish Government’s Nationality provisions, I suggest you read up on the Belfast agreement, it automatically makes me an Irish citizen.

I think ‘sporting apartheid’ is more like when a governing body takes generations to start too tackle the sectarianism that infested its own support. One would have thought that they might have made some effort to counter the sectarian bile directed at Pat Jennings and Martin O’Neill during the eighties, but it continued, and Rogan & Lennon suffered the same fate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

IOK, well here's an even better one. You have stated that you have a source for tickets at the IFA. Why not take him/her up on that and go to a game yourself?
Or are you afraid that the evidence of your own eyes and ears would contradict what you appear to believe to date? :rolleyes:

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Not at all afraid and as said earlier I would be honoured if you accompanied me if the tickets can be secured.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

For you see, opting to play for the NI team does not make someone more British/less Irish, or automatically a Unionist/no longer a Nationalist.

---

I never said playing for NI made someone less Irish.
Nor that the players like Jennings did not play with pride. Indeed Jennings has publicly said that politics or religion was never an issue between the players as it was for all the fans who abused him.
Irish nationals have a choice now who they want to play for with pride.

Quote:

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I don't know when this research you refer to was first conducted, but I doubt whether it predated the first rolling of Big Jack's Bandwagon. In which case it is hardly a definitive guide to the attitude of NI nationalists towards the NI team:

---

The Charlton bandwagon jibe is fine if it was a bit of banter but you appear to believe it, which indicates that you have not much of a clue about the Nationalist community and their lack of relationship with Windsor Park during the 1980's.
But I know you know better than that.
In 1991 over 90% of Nationalist considered the Republic to be Nr1.
80% of Nationalist took more satisfaction from the Republics 1990 World cup venture than NI in 1982, about 18% took equal satisfaction from both.
That research indicates to me that vast majority preference for the Republic dated from before Big Jack's tenure.
People could also tell the difference between a multi denominational NI team which they wished well in the WC and the Windsor Park experience.

Quote:

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As for Marc Wilson, I have seen it written that he is Protestant. That said, he was brought up in Aghagallon, which is apparently 96.6% Catholic

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Of course you have seen it written because it was debated on the OWC board - how could a Protestant declare for the Republic etc? The debate stopped when somebody pointed out that he could possibly be a Catholic.
It was not the FAI who drew up the lines in NI. Their job is to make sure that interested Irish Nationals know about their options and declare for the Republic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

What I posted was "if" (you are urging etc).
This followed your bringing up the topic of neutral symbols etc.
I do not propose any "neutral" symbols etc, for any National team.

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And what context was your "if-ing" in? :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Anyhow, are that the best nail you can hang me on from what I've posted? If so, I think I must be doing OK.

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If you insist on selective copy and paste from wikipedia/google/Shamrock Rovers' forum, please provide the link so that the reader can read the original source. Otherwise your posts come across as the meandering drivel of an old man that the reader will skim through (if that).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Unless, of course, you're not doing very well...;)

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What exactly am I suppose to be doing well at? :confused:

I point out that the FAI represents the country of Ireland, its flag, its national anthem and its people and the IFA should look after its own affairs, to which you get all hot under the collar about and suggest I'm prejudiced and hypocritical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by co. down green

One could also point to the singing of ‘Rule Brittania’, The Dambusters & ‘The Famine Song’ at the game in Slovenia as another example of ‘business as usual’ among some in the ni fan base.(As well as apeing Glasgow Rangers supporters)

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I can categorically state that "The Famine Song" was not sung at the game in Slovenia.

What was sung was "The Maze is over, why don't you go home?", directed at Howard Wells.

EG, I beleive that there must be some Nationalists in the OWC who identify with the republic and the republic flag, who go to GAA matches and who have attended croke park, but who are solely NI supporters. And this is where my question was coming from, there are obviouslly fans of NI who bring the Union flag, as they are unionists and feel part of the territoris of UK and NI. That is their right and belief, but therefore it is also the right and belief of a NI supporting nationalist who identifies with the tri colour therefore I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed withour fear or prejudice to bring their flag along in an all inclusive supporter base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul O'Shea

EG, for those that bring union jacks and display them, lets say some nationalist supporters brought a tri-colour, would you object to it being hung along with, and beside those Union jacks?

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It'd be hilarious, I'd have no objection to it. But it's about as likely as your numerous Britain-based fans rolling up at Croke with a union jack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul O'Shea

to try and suggest that the right result was agreed on and executed is beyond belief

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Seanfhear is obviously just winding us up (as he admitted in post #224, being only a "little serious").

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geysir

That's about it. Looks like some NI soccer fans in the 6 counties have still got a lot of growing up to do

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Winding up ad nauseam, snide asides and embittered prejudice aren't adult.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geysir

FIFA is satisfied with the full Irish nationality automatically given at the time of birth to people born in the 6 counties

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Not quite. As FIFA's statutes confirmed in May 2008, nationality isn't in itself a sufficient criterion for selection. The territory of the relevant association doesn't include Northern Ireland; conceivably a player from there wouldn't have residence or birth qualification, or even a parent or grandparent born elsewhere in Ireland.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FIFA

Article 16

Nationality entitling players to represent more than one Association

A player who, under the terms of art . 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions:

(a) He was born an the territory of the relevant Association ;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born an the territory of the relevant Association ;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born an the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously an the territory of the relevant Association for at least two years.

Regardless of par. 1 above, Associations sharing a common nationality may make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit. Such agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

Although it could be argued that their [unionist] tradition is represented fairly prominently on its national flag

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Ha ha. As nobody half wise would actually argue it, I can see why even you demur.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive

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I doubt that, but go on, tell us. What neutral and inclusive anthem and emblems?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

It's just sad that the IFA and evidently most NI fans either cannot grasp this

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We grasp your witless wind-up well enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Third Policeman

PS Yes I do choose to take your testimony about the inclusiveness of the culture at NI games with a pinch of salt, because it conflicts with the evidence of someone who I have known for many years and whose profession requires him to be objective and accurate

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Even if your anonymous mate actually exists (which I doubt), I'm not sure you fully understand how the shock-jock profession actually works. You claim said mate knows authoritatively that no Catholics attend NI away games. Did he do a survey as they entered the ground, or what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1FK

Where exactly am I urging the IFA to "adopt" neutral anything?

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Er, "Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you" looks fairly explicit, given that you repeated three times. No-one expects you to trawl the whole thread, but I think we might reasonably expect you to remember your own posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Co Down Green

EG, I’m not sure that posting a few utube links of ni fans singing really proves your point

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As EG made clear, it illustrates the point rather than proving it. Among other anecdotal evidence, recognition from other countries' fans, football authorities etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geysir

The Charlton bandwagon jibe is fine if it was a bit of banter but you appear to believe it, which indicates that you have not much of a clue about the Nationalist community and their lack of relationship with Windsor Park during the 1980's. But I know you know better than that. In 1991 over 90% of Nationalist considered the Republic to be Nr1. 80% of Nationalist took more satisfaction from the Republics 1990 World cup venture than NI in 1982, about 18% took equal satisfaction from both.That research indicates to me that vast majority preference for the Republic dated from before Big Jack's tenure.

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Do you have a source for that research, looks interesting?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by co. down green

EG, I’m not sure that posting a few utube links of ni fans singing really proves your point, one could post links of fans singing ‘God Save The Queen’ or shouting the loyalist ‘No surrender’ during the English anthem or singing ‘ Ten German bombers’ or ‘The Sash’ to counter your argument of a changed atmosphere among the support or an embracing of 'Football For All'.

So it does not really wash!

One could also point to the singing of ‘Rule Brittania’, The Dambusters & ‘The Famine Song’ at the game in Slovenia as another example of ‘business as usual’ among some in the ni fan base.(As well as apeing Glasgow Rangers supporters)

As regards banners, not sure why ni fans have recently started hanging a large ‘ God Save The Queen’ banner behind the goal at games or why they saw the need to celebrate Healy’s playing of the flute with ‘Our Culture Is Not A Crime’ banner.

Hardly any more football related than bringing flags with the names ofloyalist flute bands on them to games.

---

My, you have been busy! ;)
Re. the Sash in Cardiff, I won't try to defend that - it should have no place in a football context. All I will say is that if a group of fans from amongst 4,000(?) get p1ssed and start singing it outside a pub at an away match, what can be done? I'm sure it wasn't sung inside the stadium, nor has it been sung at Windsor in years.
And a (single) NS chant during GSTQ is an infortunate add-on by a minority (like e.g. Up the Ra during TFOA) which is impossible to suppress.
As for the rest - I really think you need to get real. GSTQ in Denmark - so what? Is that any worse than e.g. ROI fans singing about "hating the Brits" etc in Germany? Dambusters? Ten German Bombers? Or Rule Britannia - sung as a p1sstake?
As for the Banners - the GSTQ one is the work of one idiot (imo), who has been scorned by the majority on OWC. Personally, I don't agree with it; then again, as an Atheist, I find e.g. those John 3:16 Banners at football grounds a bit of a joke - so what?
The "Culture" Banner was, I assume, a direct response to those Celtic fans amongst the Scotland support who were pathetically "offended" by Healy's joke at Craven Cottage. I was in Hampden and didn't even see the banner, like most of the NI support, since we were seated behind it.
As for the ("All-Ireland Champions") Flute Band - if they are welcome e.g. in Limerick for the Shannon International Festival of Music, I fail to see how some of their members bringing an NI flag to an NI game is any more objectionable than e.g. some ROI fans bringing a Tricolour with e.g. "Chelsea FC", or some pub name, written across it to one of their games.
In fact, if Football For All is to mean anything, it must be that anyone who wishes to attend an NI game should be able to do so without being deterred, threatened or intimidated on account of their religion, colour, politics, disability etc.
And as someone who regularly attends games, home and away, in the company of people from all backgrounds, I can assure you that none of them is any more discouraged by the experience, than to make an occasional shake of the head.
On the contrary, for e.g. the Scotland game which you cite, with 6,000 fans going to Glasgow during the marching season, and Celtic/Rangers, ferries, all-day drinking and all the rest, the potential for trouble might have been thought to have been higher than usual. Yet I don't think there was one single arrest, as fans of both teams mingled entirely without problems for one almighty session. Indeed, the Strathclyde Police wrote a letter afterwards commending the impeccable conduct of the NI fans throughout the whole trip.
And that is the reality of following NI with the GAWA these days - like every set of fans, we have a small percentage of d1ckheads. The point is, however, that those d1ckheads no longer dictate the behaviour of the vast majority, nor do they have the capacity to threaten any individual with whom they might disagree over irrelevant, non-footballing issues.
(P.S. I wasn't in Slovenia, myself, so can't comment. Then again, from Not Brazil's post, it is clear that neither were you... )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by co. down green

Nothing to do with the Irish Government’s Nationality provisions, I suggest you read up on the Belfast agreement, it automatically makes me an Irish citizen.

---

I suggest you read the Agreement! NI-born people were entitled to Irish citizenship long before the GFA and consequently, the FAI was entitled to select such people long before as well - and did. (Did you not check out my reference to Donnelly and Hoy, for instance?)
However, they also voluntarily joined with the IFA in a Gentlemans Agreement in 1950(?) not to do so any more, until they reneged on this during the tenure of Brian Kerr.
So the GFA - which doesn't even mention football - is entirely irrelevant.
P.S. The GFA does not "automatically make [you] an Irish citizen"; rather, it endorsed the status quo ante, which is that you are entitled to take up Irish citizenship from the moment of your birth, should you so wish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by co. down green

I think ‘sporting apartheid’ is more like when a governing body takes generations to start too tackle the sectarianism that infested its own support. One would have thought that they might have made some effort to counter the sectarian bile directed at Pat Jennings and Martin O’Neill during the eighties, but it continued, and Rogan & Lennon suffered the same fate.

---

It is the FAI which is, as we speak, currently conducting a clearly discriminatory selection policy in the NI context, not the IFA. Which is the real problem, which you seem anxious to avoid.
Whilst in the meantime, we are supposed to change History, then? Sorry, but I have to live in the present (and hope to live into a the future for another good few years). You might do well to do the same. You never know, you might even enjoy it - so long as you keep an open mind...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It is the FAI which is, as we speak, currently conducting a clearly discriminatory selection policy in the NI context

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How??? :confused:

The FAI has a history of picking anyone and anybody regardless. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geysir

I never said playing for NI made someone less Irish.

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No, but that is the clear implication of your contention (i.e. that no-one who is "Irish" could prefer to play for NI over ROI)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geysir

Irish nationals have a choice now who they want to play for with pride.

---

And I have indicated here and elsewhere why I think FIFA, in failing to apply to the FAI the same birth/ancestry/residence provision as they do to 206 other Member Associations, is wrong to accord such a choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

The Charlton bandwagon jibe is fine if it was a bit of banter but you appear to believe it, which indicates that you have not much of a clue about the Nationalist community and their lack of relationship with Windsor Park during the 1980's.
But I know you know better than that.
In 1991 over 90% of Nationalist considered the Republic to be Nr1.
80% of Nationalist took more satisfaction from the Republics 1990 World cup venture than NI in 1982, about 18% took equal satisfaction from both.
That research indicates to me that vast majority preference for the Republic dated from before Big Jack's tenure.
People could also tell the difference between a multi denominational NI team which they wished well in the WC and the Windsor Park experience.

---

My point was twofold.
First, being deterred from following one team and deciding to follow another are two separate events - even if the latter may follow the former soon after. For instance, I have no doubt there were NI Nationalists who eg were turned off from following NI in the 70's, who did not immediately switch to following the ROI.
And if the success under Charlton suddenly produced a surge in support for the ROI team amongst people in the Republic, why should the "bandwagon" factor not have been equally pertinent to increased support for the team from amongst Northern Nationalists?
Second, you appear to be choosing a survey from 1991, to validate your views on Northern Nats attitudes towards the NI team generally. You do not demonstrate how the survey results reflect the situation during the decades from the 20's through to the 70's, when attitudes were almost certainly somewhat different. Nor can such results be used to "prove" attitudes in much more recent times, when the whole match day experience is radically different from the bad old days of the 80's and 90's etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

Of course you have seen it written because it was debated on the OWC board - how could a Protestant declare for the Republic etc? The debate stopped when somebody pointed out that he could possibly be a Catholic.
It was not the FAI who drew up the lines in NI. Their job is to make sure that interested Irish Nationals know about their options and declare for the Republic.

---

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make. If it is that the occasional NI Protestant might opt for the ROI and be accepted equably, then I would not disagree.
Just as I would hope you might agree that NI Catholics like Baird and McKenna might decline the advances of the FAI, or even that the likes of Kane and O'Connor might willingly revert to representing NI, even after a dalliance with the FAI.
But that does not negate my general point, which was that by only approaching members of one community in NI to play for them, the FAI is operating a discriminatory policy which serves only to reinforce division in NI, not heal it. Worse still, those ROI fans who accuse the IFA of acting prejudicially are being hypocritical, especially when faced with all the evidence, such as "Football For All" etc.
As for Wilson, my view is clear. He approached the FAI after a personal fall-out with an IFA coach. Moreover, he was entitled to do so under the (imo misguided) FIFA ruling on eligibility. Now as it happens, it seems that with a Dublin grandfather, his eligibility for the ROI need never have been questioned. Therefore, if he doesn't want to play for us, so be it.
Beyond that, I neither know nor care what religion he is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for the Banners - the GSTQ one is the work of one idiot (imo), who has been scorned by the majority on OWC. Personally, I don't agree with it;

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EG,

The GSTQ Banner first surfaced in Slovakia.

It is not without coincidence that this was in the aftermath of a, very public, debate about what the Northern Ireland team should use as an anthem in future....you will recall, a Unionist MLA (Basil McCrea) called for a change in anthem policy for Northern Ireland fixtures.

As you have also alluded to in this thread, this is an issue that has been extensively discussed amongst the Northern Ireland fanbase for several years now.

In my opinion, the banner was a statement by some of those who support the retention of GSTQ as the anthem representing the Northern Ireland team...perhaps it is a sign that they realise the momentum for change is growing?

I am pro change, but I support unequivocally the right of anyone to hold a different opinion, and to put that opinion forward for discussion.

The "anthem" issue is a potentially very divisive one amongst the Northern Ireland fanbase - it requires to be dealt with sensitively, and with patience.

One thing is for certain - there will be no change to the current anthem policy to placate those who demonise and vilify everything "Northern Ireland", and seek the demise of our international team.

Change will take place if and when those with the best interests of the Northern Ireland team ie. Northern Ireland supporters, decide it is in our best interests to do so.

The case for change is strong. Given time, I firmly believe that those whose insecurities dictate that adopting a new, "sporting", anthem for the Northern Ireland team constitutes a sop to our detractors, will see beyond the "not an inch" mentality, and realise that the strenthening of a "Northern Irish" identity is a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ifk101

The FAI has a history of picking anyone and anybody regardless. :D

---

Tell me about it - FAI = Find An Irishman...;)

But to be serious, there is clear evidence that since Kerr was in charge, the FAI has reneged on the previous Gentleman's Agreement whereby they would not select NI-born players.
Moreover, they do not just wait to be approached by such players, but are actively engaged in making the first approach.
However, it is also clear that they are only approaching players from one of the two communities in NI.
Therefore, this discriminatory (correct sense) policy undoubtedly has the capacity to reinforce division and segregation in NI, not end it.

Which I think is shocking, disgraceful, hypocritical and indefensible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

EG,

The GSTQ Banner first surfaced in Slovakia.

It is not without coincidence that this was in the aftermath of a, very public, debate about what the Northern Ireland team should use as an anthem in future....you will recall, a Unionist MLA (Basil McCrea) called for a change in anthem policy for Northern Ireland fixtures.

As you have also alluded to in this thread, this is an issue that has been extensively discussed amongst the Northern Ireland fanbase for several years now.

In my opinion, the banner was a statement by some of those who support the retention of GSTQ as the anthem representing the Northern Ireland team...perhaps it is a sign that they realise the momentum for change is growing?

I am pro change, but I support unequivocally the right of anyone to hold a different opinion, and to put that opinion forward for discussion.

The "anthem" issue is a potentially very divisive one amongst the Northern Ireland fanbase - it requires to be dealt with sensitively, and with patience.

One thing is for certain - there will be no change to the current anthem policy to placate those who demonise and vilify everything "Northern Ireland", and seek the demise of our international team.

Change will take place if and when those with the best interests of the Northern Ireland team ie. Northern Ireland supporters, decide it is in our best interests to do so.

The case for change is strong. Given time, I firmly believe that those whose insecurities dictate that adopting a new, "sporting", anthem for the Northern Ireland team constitutes a sop to our detractors, will see beyond the "not an inch" mentality, and realise that the strenthening of a "Northern Irish" identity is a good thing.

---

Thanks. Although I was in Slovakia (and sober enough!), I didn't actually see the banner there.

As for the rest - agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Tell me about it - FAI = Find An Irishman...;)

But to be serious, there is clear evidence that since Kerr was in charge, the FAI has reneged on the previous Gentleman's Agreement whereby they would not select NI-born players.
Moreover, they do not just wait to be approached by such players, but are actively engaged in making the first approach.
However, it is also clear that they are only approaching players from one of the two communities in NI.
Therefore, this discriminatory (correct sense) policy undoubtedly has the capacity to reinforce division and segregation in NI, not end it.

Which I think is shocking, disgraceful, hypocritical and indefensible.

---

But give examples. Can you say to 100% certainty that the FAI has never approached players from the second communtiy you mention?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

EG, I beleive that there must be some Nationalists in the OWC who identify with the republic and the republic flag, who go to GAA matches and who have attended croke park, but who are solely NI supporters. And this is where my question was coming from, there are obviouslly fans of NI who bring the Union flag, as they are unionists and feel part of the territoris of UK and NI. That is their right and belief, but therefore it is also the right and belief of a NI supporting nationalist who identifies with the tri colour therefore I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed withour fear or prejudice to bring their flag along in an all inclusive supporter base.

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I see what you are saying, but fear you are missing the point.

When a fan brings a flag to a game, he is (or should be) demonstrating his allegiance to the team. Of course, in the NI context, carrying an NI flag or a Union flag* will also invariably denote his political allegiance, as well.
However, the NI flag is the flag of the NI team (and the UF is technically the official flag of NI itself).
Whereas, the Tricolour is the flag of another international team (and country).
Therefore, it would be barmy (imo) for someone who supports the NI team to carry the flag of a rival team, whether that rival be ROI, England or Ivory Coast!
Otherwise, if/when NI next plays ROI, which team would our mythical NI Nationalist be seen to be supporting were he to bring along his tricolour? :confused:

The answer to this conundrum is clearly to wave a Green flag, or an IFA one. I myself used to wave a green and white chequered one, which I am pretty certain was originally a Fermanagh GAA flag(!), until one of my fellow NI fans nicked it. I wonder was he a Nationalist? Or if he was a Unionist, does he know what he acquired? ;)


* - I personally think it entirely inappropriate, on several levels, to bring a Union flag to an NI game, but there you go.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

But give examples. Can you say to 100% certainty that the FAI has never approached players from the second communtiy you mention?

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There is clear evidence, including from players themselves, that the FAI is actively approaching NI-born players with a Nationalist background. Further, every single NI-born player (with the possible exception of the atypical Wilson and the earlier equally atypical Kernaghan), who has actually selected by the FAI, has been from a Nationalist background.

Moreover, it would make sense for the FAI to tread very delicately with NI Unionists, since such players would be both much more likely to decline an invitation, as well as liable to embarrass the FAI by making it public etc.

But of course, I cannot "prove" that the FAI has never approached NI Unionists. Then again, I cannot "prove" eg that there is no Loch Ness Monster. But I am certain enough in my own mind that Nessie is a load of tosh....

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Not quite. As FIFA's statutes confirmed in May 2008, nationality isn't in itself a sufficient criterion for selection. The territory of the relevant association doesn't include Northern Ireland; conceivably a player from there wouldn't have residence or birth qualification, or even a parent or grandparent born elsewhere in Ireland.

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As I said some NI fans have a bit of growing up to do:rolleyes:
You should know by now that you are not up to engaging in an eligibility debate.
Please refer to eligibility threads on the OWC and here.

Irish nationals qualify under Article 15, a permanent nationality which does not depend on residence.

The article you quoted is article 16, for a single nationality which qualifies you to play for more than one association. Eg. a British nationality.
An Irish Nationality does not come under article 16 because an Irish nationality only entitles you to play for the Republic. An Irish nationality does not entitle you to play for NI.

Don't you remember EG's obsession with interpreting nationality to mean nationalities?:D

More hot air from Reykjavik. It's quite clear what FIFA's statutes mean, not that I agree with them. For players from NI wanting to play for the South, nationality isn't enough in itself for eligibility. I'll take FIFA as the authority thanks, not the web ramblings of a few Scandinavians.

An Irish nationality doesn't entitle to play for Northern Ireland? Aye, right.

Jaysus lads,
have ye no jobs???

Essays being written on here..

i have a suggestion for a new flag that would incorporate the island of ireland.
Perhaps, some green that symbolises the nationalist community ( and also green for teh emerald isle) and perhaps some orange which could represent those living here of the unionists belief. And to merge the unity of the 2, some white for a bit of peace and love :D
we could replicate those 3 colours on the french national flag and have said 3 colours vertically across.. any thoughts?? :D