Clubs divided over future LOI format?

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Originally Posted by Macy

Licencing isn't a completely seperate issue - would be where we are if it had ever been done properly? Monaghan going bust mid season, on top of others in recent seasons is what's left the first unsustainable. Sporting Fingal being able to get around licencing to earn promotion, kept other sustainable clubs down. It's part of the context which has left us where we are.

Ideally any changes would be properly researched and would be accompanied with a PR blitz. Unfortunately the FAI doesn't seem to have the capabilities to do either. Even if the latter can be as little as just keep on putting up people for TV and Radio stations, which are desperate for easy content.

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Monaghan and Sporting Fingal were both Premier clubs at the time they went bust. The problems of the FD are not related to their going bust but to the LOI solution of filling the gaps from (potential) FD clubs - through additional promotion and/or no relegation.

Would a single Division have "saved" Fingal ? No. Monaghan ? no again. Galway ? see previous answer. Would it have prevented the problems Shams, Shels, Cork Bohs etc got themselves into ? Of course not.


Clubs can and have gone bust in a single division entity so it is no solution to clubs going bust. Proper rigourous licencing is probobly the best/only deterrent and that can/cant apply irrespective of the number of Divisions.

I wouldn't be totally in favour of somewhere like Monfort coming in to research this as we have plenty of quality expertise in Ireland, in fact we have far better expertise than in the UK. It doesn't matter what is done, whether by a private company or University or Barack Obama, Irish football is extremely dysfunctional and the FAI have neither the will nor the bottle to take on constructive changes. As everyone who has posted here, and on other threads, has agreed, changing the league structure means nothing if it's just moving clubs from one division to the next or into one big dollop of a division. The only thing that matters is having a viable, sustainable and productive league system - which feeds up into the national team and generates opportunities for those not fortunate enough to get full-time contracts abroad (this is a hot topic admittedly).

The first step the FAI needs to do, in my opinion, is extremely radical, may well be contended by me feiners under EU law, but one which will generate income to support football in the country and not destroy young footballers as it does now. Each footballer, no matter where they're from in the country, is contracted to the FAI. If the FAI own the contracts of each player in the country (Irish) then they can ensure proper treatment, the self-generating publicity seekers in the PFAI are redundant, and clubs cannot overspend as all contracts are centralised.

How is this good?
1. It helps simplify licencing - the FAI knows how much each player gets, the clubs know it too, so there's no discussion (feeling sad already for Sligo and Rovers fans if this is the case), it also allows for a proper salary cap.
2. It prevents schoolboy clubs (I almost said "prostituting" but that's too harsh) youngsters out to English clubs and grabbing what they can. Any player who leaves, the fee comes back to the FAI who can then divvy it out, as well as keep a chunk for general development.
3. It builds a development system in and of itself - which flows over into the game.

The FAI is our governing body, it is a mish-mash of "stakeholders" who have their own vested interests, not football, and not the healthy development of it's participants. They have a real chance to do something now, make a real difference and deliver.

I suppose the obvious Irish candidate to carry out a proper study would probably be UL, but, and this is just a personal thing, I'd prefer it not to be carried out by someone who could have accusations of bias thrown at them, whether they were justified or not. And that unfotunately means looking outside of Ireland.


I do approve of central contracts in principle, but:

-The FAI are a famously incompetent and biased organisation. I wouldn't trust them to hold central contracts. Imagine what they would have done to Limerick over Barcelona-gate if they had held the contracts of all their players!

-Wouldn't a move like this require the votes of all the various squabbling entities in Irish football? So even if it is a good idea, it's never going to happen?

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Would a single Division have "saved" Fingal ? No. Monaghan ? no again. Galway ? see previous answer. Would it have prevented the problems Shams, Shels, Cork Bohs etc got themselves into ? Of course not.

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Not at all, but there are other bad things that can happen to a club apart from going bust.

Would a single division have prevented the lacklustre crowds and a general lack of interest that seems prevalent in the First Division this season? It might well have. And that would have been to the benefit of the LOI as a whole.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

I suppose the obvious Irish candidate to carry out a proper study would probably be UL, but, and this is just a personal thing, I'd prefer it to be carried out by someone who could have accusations of bias thrown at them, whether they were justified or not. And that unfotunately means looking outside of Ireland.


I do approve of central contracts in principle, but:

-The FAI are a famously incompetent and biased organisation. I wouldn't trust them to hold central contracts. Imagine what they would have done to Limerick over Barcelona-gate if they had held the contracts of all their players!

-Wouldn't a move like this require the votes of all the various squabbling entities in Irish football? So even if it is a good idea, it's never going to happen.

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Agreed on the bias thing being thrown at UL, or UCD, QUB might be good. Though no matter what is done it'll be bitched about.

Agreed too on the incompetence of the FAI, however......this is something they can tie in with the government (under some sort of system aligned to social welfare, department of health etc) so that there is oversight provided. Again, it's whether anyone can be trusted. So then the only thing to do is for the FAI to set up a holding company of sorts for this enterprise. And if they did try to mess with Limerick (for that example) they would be destroyed in court as all the clubs and entities would be affected.

I don't know if it requires the agreement of all parts of the FAI, though I'm sure enough of them would go for it. It may be possible to read down as a dictat, though legality issues could arise. For sure the government couldn't step in, though if anyone can sell it, JD can.

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Monaghan and Sporting Fingal were both Premier clubs at the time they went bust. The problems of the FD are not related to their going bust but to the LOI solution of filling the gaps from (potential) FD clubs - through additional promotion and/or no relegation

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It's all part of the same problem - clubs going bust is a licencing problem, which has lead to the 1st being unsustainable. Even the fact that they couldn't get clubs to come up is supposedly due to licencing. Nothing is in isolation as you suggested earlier.

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring.

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Clubs can and have gone bust in a single division entity so it is no solution to clubs going bust. Proper rigourous licencing is probobly the best/only deterrent and that can/cant apply irrespective of the number of Divisions.

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I don't see a single division as a long term solution. It's a short term fire fighting measure because as things stand, we have only 7 teams in the 1st for next year which isn't sustainable.

Long term I'm in favour of something more radical than x teams in the premier, y in the 1st division. I've put forward a possible structure, but I'd prefer a credible outside organisation to do proper research and produce a proposal, and for the FAI to be strong enough to implement and support and market that proposal.

btw I wouldn't see UL. Maybe it's due to the rantings of it's former president, but my perception would be of an ideologically bias from that University.

Bertie Ahern will sort this sh!t out, sure look at how he sorted the country out...

What's Roy Dooney up to these days?

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

UL, or UCD, QUB might be good.

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Might they have the skills? Possibly. But they'd all be accused of bias. If it were done, it has to be someone outside of Ireland. And in my view, it would be best done by a University department that has a longstanding reputation of research excellence. The reason I would tout for a Uni to do it over a private research company is the latter are all too often employed to come up with, or support an implicit, "business plan" as their main research objective. This is important, sure, but what I think we need is an analysis of the historical socio-economic and cultural context of why certain models work in the way that they do.

All pie in the sky of course. I don't think the FAI would spend the cash, or have the foresight to get it done properly.

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Originally Posted by gormacha

Might they have the skills? Possibly. But they'd all be accused of bias. If it were done, it has to be someone outside of Ireland. And in my view, it would be best done by a University department that has a longstanding reputation of research excellence. The reason I would tout for a Uni to do it over a private research company is the latter are all too often employed to come up with, or support an implicit, "business plan" as their main research objective. This is important, sure, but what I think we need is an analysis of the historical socio-economic and cultural context of why certain models work in the way that they do.

All pie in the sky of course. I don't think the FAI would spend the cash, or have the foresight to get it done properly.

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You could always email them and suggest it. The worst they'll do is continue to do the same as they're doing now!

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Originally Posted by Sam_Heggy

Bertie Ahern will sort this sh!t out, sure look at how he sorted the country out...

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Now now. Don't speak ill of the dead.

Edit: I cannot believe that this was my 5000th post. Fack!

How is there a future for the league when we have a crowd of CLOWNS who run it. DCFC this month arranged to postpone its match with St Pats due to Pats being in Europe with the condition that DCFC would not be disadvantaged. To our amazement what have the league done, they send us twice travelling to Dublin in 4 days, tonight against Shelbourne and then away to Pats on Monday night. Ridiculous as it might seem, we then find out guess what PATS HAVE NO GAME TONIGHT so they have extra days rest and no travel. So we help PATS and help try and improve the leagues Cooefficent and get punished as a result. The quicker fans of the league we love get these moroons out the better they couldnt organise anything

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

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Originally Posted by Flexy

How is there a future for the league when we have a crowd of CLOWNS who run it. DCFC this month arranged to postpone its match with St Pats due to Pats being in Europe with the condition that DCFC would not be disadvantaged. To our amazement what have the league done, they send us twice travelling to Dublin in 4 days, tonight against Shelbourne and then away to Pats on Monday night. Ridiculous as it might seem, we then find out guess what PATS HAVE NO GAME TONIGHT so they have extra days rest and no travel. So we help PATS and help try and improve the leagues Cooefficent and get punished as a result. The quicker fans of the league we love get these moroons out the better they couldnt organise anything

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Ah would you stop, you were getting beat either way ;)

It was known at the time that Pats had no game too. You only find out today?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

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League, but its not unilateral

Hold on a minute Dodge, we helped yous out by agreeing to postpone the game.

Now the league only told us this week that the game had to be played on Monday as there are no alternative dates available between now and end of season ( A load of Tosh ).

Without having your St Pats glasses on, would you be happy if the tables were turned and having two 300 mile round trips in a space of 4 days and knowing your oppenents had a good rest. Dont think so

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Originally Posted by Flexy

Without having your St Pats glasses on, would you be happy if the tables were turned and having two 300 mile round trips in a space of 4 days and knowing your oppenents had a good rest. Dont think so

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I certainly wouldn't be moaning about it on the internet. These things happen. The one game rest means nothing. In the past 6 weeks I'd say Pats have had twice the games Derry have had. A game tonight isn't that big a deal.

Couldn't be next Monday as there's league games
Couldn't be the following one as there could be cup replays
Couldn't be the week after as Pats/Rovers moved to midweek for league cup

So do you not think this Monday was as good as any?

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Not at all, but there are other bad things that can happen to a club apart from going bust.

Would a single division have prevented the lacklustre crowds and a general lack of interest that seems prevalent in the First Division this season? It might well have. And that would have been to the benefit of the LOI as a whole.

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Not a lot much worse for a club than going bust Peadar :eek:

Would a single Division have led to smaller gates for some (current) Prem clubs games (home game V Wexford Youths replacing homne game V shams) ?

While I do not disagree with a single Division concept the only rationale todate has been a couple of bigger gates for First Division clubs (probobly at the expense of Prem club gates).

Sorry, but this does not benifit the LOI as a whole and furthermore allows the authorities to avoid making the hard decisions required that might benifit the LOI as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

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league has to ratify any fixture. Following Bohs, ahem, endeavours in Iceland (dont mention the war) we sought to move our League game to Monday night. Our opponents UCD were happy enough to change but the Abbotstown jobworths refused to sanction it and insisted the match go ahead on Sunday afternoon -apparently it would break some (unspecified) rule :confused:

Cork and Bray looked to move their League game (next monday) to the following Frday as they were both free (out of the cup). League didn't allow it

I think there's a rule that says a game can't be moved within 2 weeks it being due to be played. Can't find a link to the rules to check mind you. If clubs don't like this I'm sure they can propose a change.