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The thing is that I am not sure the English team has a tradition of turning to face their flag - just from what I recall, they, and many other teams, just stay facing the way they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
No idea why the West Brom team made up of players of different nationalities turned at all.
I think we have had a tradition of facing our flag since Jack Charlton introduced it as a motivational tactic. I think we're very unusual in that regard, it's definitely not the norm.
Maybe that's what happened. They all turned the wrong way and McClean was the only one facing the right way!Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Protocol states we should face the flag when the anthem is played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
http://www.military.ie/info-centre/d...national-flag/Quote:
Originally Posted by Defence Forces
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-31064482.html
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/p...tions/1104.pdf
Isn't it interesting that this breaks around the same time as a Nazi-saluting Princess Elizabeth is front page of the sun. I just don't understand the fuss. I understand what he did and why he did it and he is as entitled to do it as the boys in Mexico did. And remember the Aussie (I think it was) who was also a medalist was hammered for congratulating them! A political/personal statement is the right of any person to make. No matter how we personally might not agree with or understand it. The OTT carry on the year before last over a kiss between 2 Russian athletes on the podium was in Europe and the USA, in Russia it just didn't matter, they had won medals. Then last year the madness in Sochi over having rainbow painted nails and badges, the locals just ignored it and watched the sport.
Unfortunately the majority of meeja are currently covering "events" not sports and so find it boring, or are patently unable, to report on what matters (sports) and choose to focus on what their editors will cream themselves over - scandal!
I personally wouldn't have behaved as James did and had to endure GSTQ, Flower of Scotland and the bloody Italian dirge and each time just wanted to go back to the dressing room and rest.
I might have missed this in the thread, but whats this story?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_O...k_Power_saluteQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
think it's a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_O...k_Power_saluteQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
The reference to Mexico City was what made me think of it, the two incidents have nothing in common. Peter Norman (the Aussie) came up with them sharing the pair of gloves.
Oh yeah forgot about that...............jeez this thread
It's unlikely the peculiar circumstances will ever arise again, unless WBA make a cup final whilst McClean is in the starting line-up, but such an obligation would be completely out-of-order in any other place of work. If it's actually anything other than mere rhetoric to appease the outraged and, if enforced upon McClean and it had a detrimental effect upon his employment through reprimanding or some such on account of his conscientious objection, I'd imagine he'd have a good case for breach of his rights/direct discrimination on basis of belief under employment law. The Human Rights and Equality Acts apply in the workplace too. If my employer was instructing me in such a manner, I'd be flabbergasted. It would be utterly inappropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
He wasn't disprespecting it. He was respectfully disengaging (by bowing his head, closing his eyes and keeping quiet). If you could accept he was respectfully disengaging, would you concede at least some respect for his position?Quote:
Respect is a two way street, if you want people to respect your views you have to respect theirs. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't. But from the pictures it did look like he was making a point and insulting the flag and anthem. I can see both points of views.
Aye, I thought that bizarre myself. From memory, the England team always face forward. I'm sure I've even seen them linked with arms round one another on occasion too.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Was that introduced by Charlton? In spite of the guideline document from the Department of Taoiseach that Bonnie mentions above, the Irish rugby team stand arm-in-arm rather than face the flag when the anthem is played. Not that the guideline document lays out statutory requirements, but interesting all the same. It also advises that all present should salute the flag until the final note. Don't think I've ever seen any team anywhere of any nationality ever do that! Very militaristic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Personally, I like the camaraderie apparent in the arms-round-shoulders approach to anthems. It's more stirring.
This bit is interesting too:
http://www.esplanadehotel.ie/sites/1...anspoznan3.jpgQuote:
The National Flag should never be defaced by placing slogans, logos, lettering or pictures of any kind on it, for example at sporting events.
Oops...
Spanish national team players don't even sing their national anthem.
ok....
1. WBA knew what they were getting when the signed him... poppy kerfuffle and all over last few years...
2. Didn't disrespect the Flag / Queen / Country / Prince George / Davina McCall or any other British national treasure... respectful non participation I think it's called...
3. Did they know there was going to be anthems? Surely they did or they're disorganized amateurs...
4. If they did know, why didn't Jimbo discuss it with Pulis?
5. If they did know, why start him and put in him in that position? no anthem after 30mins / half time... eh boys?
6. He could have faced the flag and kept his head down.... or not... he didn't turn his back or do anything or say anything..
7. Apart from the likes of Freddie Kanouté there seems to be very few footballers with principles nowadays... so a man taking a stand is actually admirable..
8. To be fair... Cameron apologized for Bloody Sunday... maybe we need to strat the moving on process little by little
9. As a man born in Derry why shouldn't he play in England? UK was happy to create and retain NI all these years since 1922, why shouldn't he earn a living there?
10. How many countries/anthems/presidents have been deliberately and egregiously disrespected by UK football fans for no reason other than the opportunity presents itself..?
Things are moving on from the dark days and people/communities are reconciling. Certainly that is true. However, I think it is important to understand the context of the gesture so that we can actually try and interpret/discuss it properly. The gesture is ultimately rooted, not in bitterness or hate, but in a self-respecting fear of appearing subservient. Niall McGinn explained this on behalf of those nationalist lads who do the same thing when lining out for NI. James evidently doesn't hate the English or British; he gets along fine with them every day of living here. Likewise, he has no issues with his team-mates from NI and gets on perfectly well with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SalvadorSanchez
This fear or insecurity of appearing subservient, however, is very naturally more pronounced in a society moving on from a conflict that involved two "mutually exclusive" or incompatible sides attempting to violently out-balance, domineer and subjugate one another. For nationalists in the north, 'GSTQ' remains a very real symbol of those who, not just in living memory, but also contemporarily, gladly lord it over you and who crudely and insularly see your falling one step behind as a progressive leap for them. They measure their success by your failure. If you're a nationalist who is secure enough to be able to overlook that, great, but I will defend the likes of McClean if stepping above that is something over which he still has strong emotional and logical reservations. I won't hold him to blame for a reluctance to psychologically/apparently subjugate himself to an ideology of supremacy. Why should be feel bad for it?
Eamonn McCann's critical analysis of Saville is well worth a listen, by the way, if you're interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x83lt5zDRbg
Always worth re-posting some expert opinion:Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXfGAlc4i4w
Eamonn McCann was spot on on his thoughts on the Saville inquiry there.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Is Jaws Tours what that Aussie surfer was on the other day?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
One thing that bugs me is that the flag isn't above the south stand at home games and players don't face that way....pretty sure they did in jacks days. Now For anthem players face north stand..I. e away fans end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Interesting one here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY7F5j0PTIM
Wayne Rooney is not singing (unsurprisingly being from an Irish family ;) )
Also Gary Neville, indeed Gary seems to have his head bowed which seems to be the polite form of protest?
His stance is very much like this, maybe Gary is an anti-Royalist, but like Ian Brown of the Stone Roses (also form Manchester like Neville)
This seems to back up that idea, granted it is only a forum post.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...php?p=18835018
Not seen much mention of that in the British media, the sort of thing they would likely gloss over.
Quote:
Well I read once that Gary Neville in particular is a nationalist and so refuses to sing the anthem because he doesn't believe in the royal family.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKXW5gzWUAAaqf4.png
This article seems to go along with that.
See he is not just not singing he has his head bowed.Quote:
Wayne Rooney did not sing the national anthem at the start of his England career while Gary Neville, now an England coach, refused to join in as he said he preferred "focusing on the match" instead.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...63_468x286.jpg
I respect his beliefs but I don't agree with them. To McClean GSTQ and the flag mean something different but to me it doesn't. It represents my mother's family and my friends and also the people of Britain. I can also see why people would be offended and take it up the wrong way and feel insulted.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
As for the top bit, let's look at it this way. If you work in the catering business and one of your employee's tells you before hand that they wouldn't serve at a same-sex wedding because of their beliefs would you let them? Or what about the situation Newcastle found themselves in with Pa**** Cisse when he said he wouldn't wear the jersey because Wonga were the sponsors and it went against his religious values?
Pulis was making the point that we work together as a team and no one is bigger than WBA etc. He also pointed out that he gets on well with the rest of the squad even the two Northern Ireland lads, so that shows there was no bad blood in the camp and McClean isn't a raving 'Up the RA' Republican. Tony Pulis is right. We all have a personal beliefs but when you put on that West Brom shirt and walk on the pitch you leave them in the dressing room.
I like how we face the flag and prefer to to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Given the provenance of some in the rugby squad in general I would say it would be a tough one to implement them facing the flag.
I love the 'YOU'RE THE MEASURE OF OUR DREAMS' one.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
No, same as I wouldn't let McClean refuse to serve at a wedding of two British people. But then those are completely different to the issue of not bowing your head during a song.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
I was responding to Danny's claims in regards to Pulis comments that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
'such an obligation would be completely out-of-order in any other place of work. If it's actually anything other than mere rhetoric to appease the outraged and, if enforced upon McClean and it had a detrimental effect upon his employment through reprimanding or some such on account of his conscientious objection, I'd imagine he'd have a good case for breach of his rights/direct discrimination on basis of belief under employment law. The Human Rights and Equality Acts apply in the workplace too. If my employer was instructing me in such a manner, I'd be flabbergasted. It would be utterly inappropriate.'
So, if Cisse didn't want to wear the Wonga logo Newcastle United FC shouldn't have told him he had to? That's my point.
In an ideal world, I think the liberal position would be to respect that (as much as I might personally disagree with such a position). Perhaps their conscience/beliefs would be protected under employment law. It's not a great analogy though; catering at an event upon request would presumably be an integral part of the catering job roll for which they've signed a contract (not that the signing of a contract necessarily washes all employee's rights away either, mind). In McClean's case, paying reverence to 'GSTQ' isn't part of his job roll. If the wedding catering issue was really such a strong objection on conscience/religious grounds and compromise was viable, perhaps another employee could be found to do that particular job or the job could be sub-contracted (as was seemingly approved by the judge in the recent Ashers Bakery case in Belfast when a Christian-run bakery refused the provision of a cake celebrating same-sex marriage, although the case isn't directly relevant either as it dealt with and upheld a case of alleged customer discrimination as opposed to employee discrimination).Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Nobody was trying to be bigger than West Brom. If West Brom want personal beliefs left in the dressing room, that's fine, but that obviously isn't their policy if they're intent on engaging in overtly political spectacles such as anthem-playing and poppy celebration. And, as I've said, whatever about what Pulis might want to enforce, WBA, as an employer, are still subject to employment law like any other employer and are obliged not to mistreat, reprimand or dismiss their employees on grounds contrary to employment law.Quote:
Pulis was making the point that we work together as a team and no one is bigger than WBA etc.... We all have a personal beliefs but when you put on that West Brom shirt and walk on the pitch you leave them in the dressing room.
I'm not sure what would have happened there. Cisse might well have had a case if he stood his ground and Newcastle enforced their policy to the detriment of his employment. I can't say for sure as I simply don't know how a judge might have decided if such a case had ever been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
I wouldn't call it 'overtly political spectacles'. It's the custom in America to play national anthems before sporting events and the Poppy isn't regarded by many as a political symbol. The Poppy is to honour British services men, many who have played football and/or football fans. I don't think many people view it like that only the right-wing Britain First types. But surely McClean must have know that when he moved to England that there was a chance that he'd make it to a cup final?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
It's undeniably overtly political; all national anthems, flags and symbols in furtherance of a particular ideal are. I don't know how someone could argue otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
I'm sure McClean was and is aware of the possibility; he can just put his head down if he wishes to disengage, as is perfectly reasonable.
So how has James been doing this pre-season outside of the goal?
Quiet, he's been keeping his head down.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Well I wouldn't know enough to speak confidently on employment law but conscientious objection is well-established in the workplace so he could certainly have a case that it's an unreasonable demand to make of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
I assume McClean is going to have to wear the poppy at West Brom?
I wonder how many of the people complaining about McClean's stance had a problem with Jeremy Clarkson's risible behavior in the Falkland's? Not many I would hasten to guess.
Would English footballers be expected to face the Argentinian flag and respect their anthem? I have my doubts, but it's a one-way street as always; cultural dominance must be asserted.
I don't know anyone who had a problem with Sammy Morrow's behavior at the cup final in 2008. I personally wouldn't have the energy for it. I would pay respect to the English anthem and English flag, but I haven't heard a single one of the people spouting bile about McClean acknowledging precisely his reasons for doing so. It is not as black and white and simple as they portray.
And bringing up Gerry Adams and the I.R.A. I don't like the undertones there. A spade is a spade - Adams (personal opinion) & the I.R.A. are scum, but equally Ian Paisley incited hatred and poured gasoline on the fire and there were/are paramilitary groups on both sides.
...as I said, one way street.
National anthems should be played before International matches and that is it. Playing national anthems before club matches is an antiquated notion and must be left in the past.
Host countries should be respected, but also the nations/nationalities they are receiving.
West Brom have made no comment that would lead you to assume thisQuote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Clarkson did nothing wrong in Argentina, and the two incidents are unrelatedQuote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
How is a hypothetical game between a club with English players and an Argentinian club related to this? It isn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
You're bringing up the Falklands and Jeremy Clarkson.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
It's was a respectful act by the host club. Nothing more. Stop trying to blow playing the anthem into something it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Nobody, anywhere, is debating that the host club showed anything other than respectQuote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Yeah but what about the Nazis!?
It appears former Rangers defender Kirk Broadfoot has been banned for 10 games for sectarian abuse of James during a game last season. Charming.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...handed-6127136
I also recall the Scottish midfielder who was capped by Northern Ireland, Paul Paton, retweeting a sectarian tweet shortly after news of his declaring for Northern Ireland. I recall Aaron Doran & Richie Foran being the only two people in a group of Inverness players to get verbally and physically assaulted on a night out - and somehow the latter got reprimanded for defending himself! I recall Anthony Stokes receiving death threats.
I'm not delving into the past here, all of this has happened within a timeframe of roughly 12 months. God knows what we don't hear about. None of us have heard anything about this Broadfoot/McClean issue over the last 4 months. And it easily could have flown over our radar considering The Mirror are the only news group breaking this story.
I cannot see how McClean's actions are an issue in light of things like this.
I waded through dozens of comments on West Brom boards, and indeed boards of other clubs, and not one person mentioned anything about McClean's personal links to the atrocities in Derry; not one jot of comprehension or empathy over the broader issue - just vitriol. If he was from Offaly it's one thing, but....
He had to explain his actions to Dave Whelan - a person who made racist comments about Jewish people and Chinese people. Madness!
I looked it up. I see the number plate was deemed to be a coincidence. I didn't see that news story. I thought it was incendiary, and given Jeremy Clarkson's track record e.g. "slope", "lazy Irish" etc etc... I believed it was highly unlikely to be a coincidence at the time.Quote:
Clarkson did nothing wrong in Argentina, and the two incidents are unrelated
That's truly baffling. I love this line- He's clearly such a religious guy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
In comparison to Broadfoot, I think the only thing that James has done that could be perceived as being offensive in his time as a footballer is the incident with the Wolfe Tones song and I don't think the lyrics or story behind that song could be construed by the most bigoted of person as offensive. The main issue there was that the song refers to the IRA so by imbecilic deduction, he's an IRA supporter. The IRA in 1920, you insidious and ignorant dimwits. http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29092505.htmlQuote:
Broadfoot was born into a Protestant family in Ayrshire and is known to be a staunch supporters of certain cultural traditions relating to his religion.
Or am I missing something offensive he's done? M
Maybe McClean should have a new tweet: “On flight for the maras (tomorrow’s) game. Only one thing for it —headphones in, Sex Pistols on! What’s everyone’s fave song? God Save the Queen's mine.”
I thought one hilarious comment on those WBA boards was one where someone inferred McClean's actions were to impress his mates and earn himself a pat on the back and a pint in Derry. McClean doesn't drink and I doubt he needs his mates that earn a fraction of his wage to buy him a pint.
What the hell is the wonga logo?
wonga is a loan company in England. They sponsor Newcastle's jersey. I'm a bit sketchy on the exact religious details here, but Cisse is a Muslim, and his religion forbids owing money, so it was reported that he wouldn't wear the jersey with that sponsor on it. However, he had no problem with it, other Muslim players in England had worn jerseys sponsored by similar companies and it all went away pretty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
On social media he has, variouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
- accused all NI fans (and most of the players) of being sectarian bigots
- claimed he knew who sent bullets in the post to various players
- expressed support for the modern IRA*
* there's a bit of a grey area. Unionist banners for the 12th routinely feature the UVF. They claim it's the historical 1912 version, but obviously their 2012 successors are holding sway in the Estates.