Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

So overstated pretty much every country in Europe operates one?

Our lack of a pyramid is what caused three Galway clubs in the First Division btw. A pyramid - promotion on merit - would have made it much harder

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A pyramid is definitely needed. I see a dual pyramid as the approach required. A pyramid structure within elite licencing for first team clubs like a Mayo FC that would have academy structures in place. LoI second teams also welcome to join if they wish. Ideally progressive city clubs like Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers, St. Pat's, Bohs, Derry, Galway, Waterford and Cork would join that tier if they see value in a second team between academy and senior level.
Outside of the elite pyramid then, there should be a separate pyramid from district leagues up to regional leagues.

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Originally Posted by legendz

... what is the benefit of a saturation of clubs in an area competing against each other?

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Buenos Aires, a city of just over 3m, has over a dozen f-t professional clubs, some of them giants. Uruguay's population is 3.4m, half of them in Montevideo, supports two professional league divisions of 30 teams, with another two divisions/37 clubs below which are p-t or amateur, with promotion and relegation between the four.

London has a population approx twice that of ROI. It has 7 x PL clubs alone, another 5 in the EFL and more in the fifth and sixth tiers (f-t and p-t), and is surrounded by a host of other clubs - Luton, Watford, Crawley, Stevenage, Bromley, Sutton etc within close distance. Lancashire is another hotbed of football, also with loads of clubs.

By contrast, the whole of East Anglia supports just two big(ish) clubs, while Cornwall and the West of England is also very sparsely represented (rugby country), and North Wales (decidedly not rugby country) really only has Wrexham worth the name.

Meaning mere "saturation" (i.e. concentration of clubs in a given area) can hardly be the problem, nor "magicing up" new clubs in areas which have never previously shown much enthusiasm for the game the solution.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Outside of the elite pyramid then, there should be a separate pyramid from district leagues up to regional leagues.

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It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.

Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.

Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)

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I said this before, but I think it is worth saying again, but there is logic in advancing a club like Mayo into LOI.

There is a reason why football is more developed in areas around LOI clubs, and picking a 'hub' to develop has merit to help football in a non football region.

If you went straight into a pyramid system, regions that had a headstart to be more developed would just dominate those that are further behind, potentially stunting the growth in an unrepresented region, and leaving a concentration in another area.

Mervue and Salthill are good example of that.

A pyramid system should eventually be the end goal, but it can definitely exacerbate the unequal nature of Irish football, and creating bridges (baiscally knowledge centers) beforehand is, for me at least, building positively for the long term health of a pyramid.

With the proposed reduction (and possible complete elimination) of solidarity money to D1 clubs, entering senior football is going to be harder than ever. I am all for a proper pyramid but in the short term we're in danger of losing clubs from D1, so the idea of adding another tier seems incredibly fanciful.

The LOI has always had a huge issue with losing clubs, and between the wage spiral currently happening that is not being matched by income and the new imbalance of solidarity money- there are very serious questions on whether the LOI as we know it will be remotely viable.

Interesting to read in Kerry's Eye this morning that both Longford and Kerry have to formally apply for re-election to the League this season, similar to the system that applied in the EFL before 1987, so presumably the intention is that once the third tier is established, the bottom two FD clubs and the top senior club in each third tier section will face this procedure, with the two sides with the most votes returned for the following year?

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

I said this before, but I think it is worth saying again, but there is logic in advancing a club like Mayo into LOI.

There is a reason why football is more developed in areas around LOI clubs, and picking a 'hub' to develop has merit to help football in a non football region.

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But it didn't work with Kildare, Monaghan, Thurles, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tullamore, Cabinteely, Sporting Fingal, etc, etc - and arguably it hasn't worked with Kerry, given how bad they are and how that has to be a hamstring to them in terms of generating sustained interest in the club.

Why would it be any different with Mayo?

Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

By contrast, the whole of East Anglia supports just two big(ish) clubs, while Cornwall and the West of England is also very sparsely represented (rugby country), and North Wales (decidedly not rugby country) really only has Wrexham worth the name.

Meaning mere "saturation" (i.e. concentration of clubs in a given area) can hardly be the problem, nor "magicing up" new clubs in areas which have never previously shown much enthusiasm for the game the solution.

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I dont subscribe to this idea at all.

Dalkey/Killiney in Dublin usen't have any demand for or interest in gah. Cuala GAA setting up has gradually grown over 30 years and is now a big deal there.

You induce demand in an area by "magicing up" a well run club in an area that otherwise isn't a stronghold, especially if its a major sport.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But it didn't work with Kildare, Monaghan, Thurles, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tullamore, Cabinteely, Sporting Fingal, etc, etc - and arguably it hasn't worked with Kerry, given how bad they are and how that has to be a hamstring to them in terms of generating sustained interest in the club.

Why would it be any different with Mayo?

Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.

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Except both Mervue and Salthill were promoted from the A Championship due to their performances on the pitch, the former winning a play-off, and the latter qualifying for one before Kildare resigned.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.

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Mervue and Salthill split the support in an already small town. An absolute disaster.

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Except both Mervue and Salthill were promoted from the A Championship due to their performances on the pitch, the former winning a play-off, and the latter qualifying for one before Kildare resigned.

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But they were only in the A Championship because there wasn't a pyramid. They put their hands up and were accepted into a division where, of course, the vast majority were ineligible for promotion.

The A Championship, or the current proposal, isn't creating a pyramid. It's simply adding another layer on to the current failed system.

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Originally Posted by Buller

Mervue and Salthill split the support in an already small town. An absolute disaster.

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No they didn't

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Originally Posted by Buller

Dalkey/Killiney in Dublin usen't have any demand for or interest in gah. Cuala GAA setting up has gradually grown over 30 years and is now a big deal there.

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That actually proves my point not yours, I think.

The point being that you build a pyramid from the bottom up, using strong blocks on a solid foundation. In the case of football, the foundation is pre-existing interest in the game, with existing, ambitious clubs as the blocks. And even then it takes time.

Anyhow, from googling Cuala GAA, it seems they were formed half a century ago, from the merger of two existing clubs. And as you say yourself, it's taken 30 years of "gradual" growth* to get them where they are today.

How is that anything like Kerry FC, Mayo FC, two clubs which I believe never had an adult section? In their case, the equivalent to Cuala would actually be taking eg Tralee Dynamos or Castlebar Celtic, maybe merging them with another local club, then growing them gradually up through the different levels of (ahem) a pyramid, over many years.


* - I don't know anything at all about Cuala beyond googling, but I do know that the GAA are particularly good at developing chosen clubs using their own resources which are often much greater than those of Football. This is frequently helped too by accessing generous funding from the government. Whereas for Mayo/Kerry, or Castlebar/Tralee, the FAI has nothing like that to offer.

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Originally Posted by Buller

You induce demand in an area by "magicing up" a well run club in an area that otherwise isn't a stronghold, especially if its a major sport.

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Don't you think there might be a reason for somewhere not being a stronghold?

Which is not to say that you cannot eventually grow the game in such an area. However, this takes time, resources, planning and process etc, as we've seen eg in NI with Dungannon, Ballinamallard or Warrenpoint, areas which never had Senior football when eg Cuala GAA was formed.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.

Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)

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I'm suggesting a dual pyramid. Elite and regional. I'm not against a Mayo FC joining if they meet elite licencing criteria. Elite licencing should be central around progressive academies and a professional league.
District leagues to regional leagues should be the regional pyramid. Newmarket Celtic FC or any junior/intermediate club should have a higher level to play for. I don't think Newmarket Celtic FC can sustain professionalism within an elite pyramid but could target as progress through a regional pyramid.

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Originally Posted by legendz

I'm suggesting a dual pyramid.

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And as I say, "It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected."

Let's reconvene this conversation for ten more years at this stage, lads. We should be grateful the League is progressing at the moment. Until we have a decade free of clubs on the brink of meltdown, with several clubs making continuous strides in eg the conference, there'll be little appetite for ironing out the many wrinkles in setting it up at present.

And as PineappleStu says "if its connected to a pyramid, its not dis."

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And as I say, "It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected."

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Fair enough! ?

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Originally Posted by CorribsideSteve

Let's reconvene this conversation for ten more years at this stage, lads. We should be grateful the League is progressing at the moment. Until we have a decade free of clubs on the brink of meltdown, with several clubs making continuous strides in eg the conference, there'll be little appetite for ironing out the many wrinkles in setting it up at present.

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There are positives. There are gaps as well. Progressive clubs like Shamrock Rovers might want a level for a B team. The First Division say no to that. The likes of Mayo and Kildare joining the youth leagues should have a third tier level to mix with B teams at least.
The blueprint should be join the youth leagues and progress eventually to a Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II.
Linking up district leagues to some pathway is a completely different problem to solve, made more difficult if the calendar season being adopted by all leagues does not go through.

If there was a pyramid; Premier, then First Division, Second Division North/South, what would it look like below this?

LSL/MSL/USL seem ideal if they can be tidied up (allowing that the USL seems to have its own issues of course - and even the LSL/MSL are largely Dublin/Cork only I think, rather than province-wide).

Get rid of stuff like the county district leagues, or the separate leagues like the AUL. There's too many standalone leagues at local level.