Election 2007

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

What in the name of god are you talking about? I was talking about an average not a distribution. If you want to come to me with a frequency distribution graph detailing where the bulk of irish people's incomes are.

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This sonny:

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Also, what you cannot discount is that whether or not 44k sounds inflated, we're still higher than any other country. It is this comparison, or rather, the comparison to where we were, that we have to make to decide whether or not we're better off as a people than we were.

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Is a ridiculous argument

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Er, no. Well, I work with 5 of them and 3 plan on staying while the other two want to move to London as they miss "the big city". They have to wait til the male in the couple gets his degree here.

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In a way I'm not surprised, shur you can't see buildings by the docks or hotels or anything either :rolleyes:

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They'll pay to teach you and pay to house you for college

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Off €140 a month??

It's not an equitable system and it's not free. My family haven't a pot to pi$$ in and I'm offered that to get me through college??

This Guy :D

Go to bed. Between your drivel about Limerick, your drivel about the economy (If you're an actual economics student it worries me) and your drivel about immigrant workers, the last two pages of contributions by you have been, well, drivel. I only wish it was the middle of the day so there were more people around to point and laugh at you, but hey the thread will still be here tomorrow right??

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Originally Posted by jebus

Much like the 44k per year per person your were quoting as a reason to re-elect Fianna Fail hardly represents the average person in Ireland

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44k DOLLARS

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There's that famous Cork wit. Seriously though, you said a few posts back that you're going with the Socialist Party this year right? Judging by the difference in quality between your points and our resident socialist, BohsPartison, I'll assume you are going to vote for the Socialists because a pretty girl handed you a flyer one day. Am I right?

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No, although I do find Mick Barry's cuddly bald head so darn cute.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

How long before Gavin tries to say he was on a wind up? Oh dear oh dear oh dear

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See even Dodge can see you're being slaughtered

And Dodge hates us, so he does :p :D

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

44k DOLLARS

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So your mother is being paid E32,360 a year?

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

This sonny:
Is a ridiculous argument

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How is "we're better off than anyone else" a ridiculous argument? Its got nothing to do with wealth distribution :confused:

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Off €140 a month??

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No, all free.

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It's not an equitable system and it's not free. My family haven't a pot to pi$$ in and I'm offered that to get me through college??

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No, you're offered that to attend college, which is a privellage and something only a drastic figure like 3% of the world gets to do. If you want them to feed you, as you said, go on the dole.

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Originally Posted by jebus

So your mother is being paid E32,360 a year?

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:rolleyes: No, but then my mother isnt John Doe, the average worker in Ireland. For a start, she only works 20 hours a week, she's only done her Intermediate, and she was out of the work force for the majority of her adult life raising a family.

John Doe, the average Irish worker, IS earning E32,260 per year, whether or not you'll ever see him walking down the street.

Its that other guy, Joe Smith, the guy at the peak of the wealth distribution chart, you'd probably recognise. He's better off than he was before our country dragged itself out of the third world. He probably knows John Doe, doesnt think he's a snob.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

:rolleyes: No, but then my mother isnt John Doe, the average worker in Ireland. For a start, she only works 20 hours a week, she's only done her Intermediate, and she was out of the work force for the majority of her adult life raising a family.

John Doe, the average Irish worker, IS earning E32,260 per year, whether or not you'll ever see him walking down the street.

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Ask your mother to ask her john doe full time mates at Dunnes if they are on E32,260 a year, or call in to our local centra and ask the girls in there if they are, then take a trip into town and ask any of the HMV workers if they are, and then proceed to work through Patricks St, asking all the counter staff in all the stores if they are on that money. Then come back here and tell me if your average joe is on E33,260, then you can apologise for taking up so much of my time with your nonsense

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

How is "we're better off than anyone else" a ridiculous argument? Its got nothing to do with wealth distribution :confused:

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Yeah, you've looked confused for ages son, no need for the smiley.

BTW, the bit in bold is (incredibly) an even stupider argument then the one I was quoting from you before so think I'll use that from now on

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No, all free.

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Really. Housing is free in college?? News to me sunshine

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No, you're offered that to attend college, which is a privellage and something only a drastic figure like 3% of the world gets to do. If you want them to feed you, as you said, go on the dole

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There you have it folks. College in this wonderful country where "we're better off than anyone else" is still a privelledge to be given out to those who can afford it rather than those who are of the ability to do it well. Suppose it figures when GZ is just a few short weeks from stumbling his way to an economics degree

This Guy :D

Go To Bed man

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Originally Posted by jebus

Ask your mother to ask her john doe full time mates at Dunnes if they are on E32,260 a year, or call in to our local centra and ask the girls in there if they are, then take a trip into town and ask any of the HMV workers if they are, and then proceed to work through Patricks St, asking all the counter staff in all the stores if they are on that money. Then come back here and tell me if your average joe is on E33,260, then you can apologise for taking up so much of my time with your nonsense

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Is John Doe, on average, a till operator, or counter staff? Or are they the foreigners stacking shelves in Dunnes? or the teenager earning pocket money in centra? How old are you, if you don't mind me asking jebus, only I'm concerned as to what kind of jobs people have these days. The only reason the people listed above have those jobs, is because the others are out earning, on average, a little more than E32260 a year to spend on food, newspapers, cds and the other stuff on patricks street. If they weren't, they'd be doing (far less) of those jobs, themselves.

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Yeah, you've looked confused for ages son, no need for the smiley.

BTW, the bit in bold is (incredibly) an even stupider argument then the one I was quoting from you before so think I'll use that from now on

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Purchasing Power per capita is the best indication of a nation's wealth. According to it, we're the best off medium-to-large nation in the world. What is stupid about that?

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Really. Housing is free in college??

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If you need it, I think the exculsion zone is 20 miles or something.

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There you have it folks. College in this wonderful country where "we're better off than anyone else" is still a privelledge to be given out to those who can afford it rather than those who are of the ability to do it well. Suppose it figures when GZ is just a few short weeks from stumbling his way to an economics degree

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No, its "given out" to anyone that wants a go at it. They're just not going to bloody pay you to do it, though they'll do that in other courses, FETAC and FAS, etc.

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Go To Bed man

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I've noticed you're beginning to repeat things i've already explained you're wrong about, and you're beginning to repeat this too. If your arguments are crumbling, I suggest you pack it in rather than hoping I will.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Is John Doe, on average, a till operator, or counter staff? Or are they the foreigners stacking shelves in Dunnes? or the teenager earning pocket money in centra? How old are you, if you don't mind me asking jebus, only I'm concerned as to what kind of jobs people have these days. The only reason the people listed above have those jobs, is because the others are out earning, on average, a little more than E32260 a year to spend on food, newspapers, cds and the other stuff on patricks street. If they weren't, they'd be doing (far less) of those jobs, themselves.

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Jesus Christ man, next you'll be calling them inferior, and then putting them in concentration camps. I'm 26 and have worked for HMV, GAME, XtraVision, and Virgin in my years, and none of them come close to paying what you say the average is. My girlfriend is a full time graphic designer on E24,000 a year, my brother is a full-time computer programmer on E29,000 a year, my friends salaries range from E16,000 a year (music store manager) to whatever the yearly dole salary is. Your perfect Ireland, where the Aryans earn E33,000 a year to spend on newspapers off the non-humans doesn't exist my friend

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

oh, to not have a worry beyond my pastimes.

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Ah Gav I shouldnt rise to your wumming again...but

The Irish language has nothing to do with a worry about my pastime. Its a matter of human rights, constitutional rights, employment, equality, education, family etc for me. Language issues come into pretty much every part of my life.

The current Government in its last term have done more for the language than any other since 1937 IMO. Thats the main reason FF will get my vote with Labour and the Greens getting a look in because of their Irish language stances too. Even SF, to their eternal credit made a big issue out of the Irish language in the recent deal up North when the DUP were saying that it could be a deal breaker

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Originally Posted by SÓC

Ah Gav I shouldnt rise to your wumming again...but

The Irish language has nothing to do with a worry about my pastime. Its a matter of human rights, constitutional rights, employment, equality, education, family etc for me. Language issues come into pretty much every part of my life.

The current Government in its last term have done more for the language than any other since 1937 IMO. Thats the main reason FF will get my vote with Labour and the Greens getting a look in because of their Irish language stances too. Even SF, to their eternal credit made a big issue out of the Irish language in the recent deal up North when the DUP were saying that it could be a deal breaker

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Fair play! I just think you have more pressing reasons to vote FF. You know I love slagging yourself and trina's "gift" :p

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Originally Posted by jebus

Jesus Christ man, next you'll be calling them inferior, and then putting them in concentration camps. I'm 26 and have worked for HMV, GAME, XtraVision, and Virgin in my years, and none of them come close to paying what you say the average is. My girlfriend is a full time graphic designer on E24,000 a year, my brother is a full-time computer programmer on E29,000 a year, my friends salaries range from E16,000 a year (music store manager) to whatever the yearly dole salary is. Your perfect Ireland, where the Aryans earn E33,000 a year to spend on newspapers off the non-humans doesn't exist my friend

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Look if you want me to say that your brother is "superior", in that he's providing a better skill value to his employers, ok. He is. He obviously comes fairly close to the E32k figure, enough perhaps to start bringing in to play just how far the average is skewed by millionaires and such and by the time he's forty he'll probably have passed it out.

By the way, his purchasing parity power is around E7k above the average in the European Union.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Purchasing Power per capita is the best indication of a nation's wealth. According to it, we're the best off medium-to-large nation in the world. What is stupid about that?

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Jebus has dealt with this clownery elsewhere. You've been tripping over yourself all night with your John Doe nonsense

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If you need it, I think the exculsion zone is 20 miles or something.

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Nope, you get a grant increase, doesn't make it free.....

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No, its "given out" to anyone that wants a go at it. They're just not going to bloody pay you to do it

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Why not if I have the ability but not the means??

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I've noticed you're beginning to repeat things i've already explained you're wrong about, and you're beginning to repeat this too.

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LMAO

You're taking a hiding from all angles GZ, you haven't answered one point satisfactorarily all night. You're flailing about is frankly pathetic looking :D

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If your arguments are crumbling, I suggest you pack it in rather than hoping I will

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This Guy :D

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Look if you want me to say that your brother is "superior", in that he's providing a better skill value to his employers, ok. He is. He obviously comes fairly close to the E32k figure, enough perhaps to start bringing in to play just how far the average is skewed by millionaires and such and by the time he's forty he'll probably have passed it out.

By the way, his purchasing parity power is around E7k above the average in the European Union.

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Nice the way you focus on the highest earner of all my friends and skip over all the rest of us, with that sort of logic you could be an economist

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Originally Posted by jebus

Nice the way you focus on the highest earner of all my friends and skip over all the rest of us, with that sort of logic you could be an economist

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The degree is in the post :eek:

That Guy :D

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Nope, you get a grant increase, doesn't make it free.....

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Why not if I have the ability but not the means??

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Do you really want me to go into why we can't pay everyone minimum to go to college?

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You're taking a hiding from all angles GZ, you haven't answered one point satisfactorarily all night. You're flailing about is frankly pathetic looking :D

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I am? I could've sworn yourself and jebus's arguments could be boiled down to "nuh-uh, i'm average and i have a purchasing power of E32k per year.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Do you really want me to go into why we can't pay everyone minimum to go to college?

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Who said everyone??

Minmum what??

There's that flailing again :rolleyes:

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I am? I could've sworn yourself and jebus's arguments could be boiled down to "nuh-uh, i'm average and i have a purchasing power of E32k per year

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Ya you are ;)

Btw the last bit of that makes F-All sense

This Guy :D

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

I am? I could've sworn yourself and jebus's arguments could be boiled down to "nuh-uh, i'm average and i have a purchasing power of E32k per year.

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I think you'll find I never once said I had a purchasing power of 32k, jesus for an economist you don't even know how to deal with arguments involving figures do you? Last word on this from me Gavin, you're a idiot

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Originally Posted by jebus

Nice the way you focus on the highest earner of all my friends and skip over all the rest of us, with that sort of logic you could be an economist

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Because you were implying i was saying he was some sort of Aryan overlord, when in fact, he's just not an unskilled worker currently employed in a shop. I'm trying my best not to come off elitist but do you think that is the national average?

Not going to do economy by the way (thank god says you :p) I'm going to further pursue the IT section of my free university course, Business Informations Systems. Either going to shoot for marketing or for programming.

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Originally Posted by jebus

I think you'll find I never once said I had a purchasing power of 32k, jesus for an economist you don't even know how to deal with arguments involving figures do you? Last word on this from me Gavin, you're a idiot

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That should (obviously) have read "and I don't have purchasing parity power 32k"

forgive me, its late and i'm getting deja vu

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Originally Posted by jebus

Last word on this from me Gavin, you're a idiot

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Seconded

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Seconded

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Actually I'll add that I hope Dahamsta, in the interest of showing the mentality of a Fianna Fail voter, will not bin the parts of this debate that have gone off topic tonight (honestly we tried keeping it on topic this time!)

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Business Informations Systems. Either going to shoot for marketing or for programming.

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Currently doing something very similar

If you want some friendly advice (Jesus why do I bother) although there are lots of jobs in I.T (for the moment) the programming side of things can be a real drag if your coming from a purely business background and you're really going to need to buckle down at it

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Originally Posted by jebus

Last word on this from me Gavin, you're a idiot

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Seconded

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How ironic. Anyway, attack the points not the poster, please.

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If you want some friendly advice (Jesus why do I bother) although there are lots of jobs in I.T (for the moment) the programming side of things can be a real drag if your coming from a purely business background and you're really going to need to buckle down at it

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yeah, but i'm a bit weird in that i usually enjoy programming. B.I.S does a fair bit of it and I've done some on my work placement so all going well might tie down a full time contract there over the summer.

See, its nice to be friendly! Politicals, and worse, economics, isn't supposed to be personal.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Actually I'll add that I hope Dahamsta, in the interest of showing the mentality of a Fianna Fail voter, will not bin the parts of this debate that have gone off topic tonight (honestly we tried keeping it on topic this time!)

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Either that or we've finally gotten those life bans we so richly deserve :p

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

How ironic. Anyway, attack the points not the poster, please.

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Without pointing out the irony in that (Jesus Christ you're too easy) I see what you did there. Wow, you're so much better than us :rolleyes:

This Guy :D

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

yeah, but i'm a bit weird in that i usually enjoy programming. B.I.S does a fair bit of it and I've done some on my work placement so all going well might tie down a full time contract there over the summer.

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Kinda like VB myself despite being definitely set on a financial course for the rest of my studies (touch wood) :eek:

See, you're not that different to me, you can be saved :p

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

See, you're not that different to me, you can be saved :p

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Ok, since we're done arguing about whether or not the IMF's Purchasing Power Parity per Capita chart is accurate/valuable, who will you be voting for? How would you sell them to an upper middle class socialist like myself? :D I haven't decided on anyone beyond my first place vote and I don't particularly like the two FF candidates in my area (mind you, the FG candidate gave me detention once) so I'm open to pursuasion. :)

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

They tried to stop people from frittering away the money by using the SSIA scheme to tie up money. It worked for the most part, and hopefully people will use some of the return to pay the debts they've gathered.

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I think you've forgotten that SSIA's were actually introduced by McCreevy after he got bóllocked by the European Bank for a give away budget just before the last election. You remember, another one of those where the Government reduced the top rate rather than take people out of the tax net (at the time, minimum wage was still taxed).

There is no free education in this country, right down to primary level.

Any average figure, particularly when it comes to stuff like salaries, is nonsense without the median as well. Any average pay calculation is pretty flawed in this country anyway as it works on the assumption that everything is through the books and ignores the abuses of supposed sub contracting. Hence why they claim that displacement and exploitation aren't happening.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Ok, since we're done arguing about whether or not the IMF's Purchasing Power Parity per Capita chart is accurate/valuable, who will you be voting for? How would you sell them to an upper middle class socialist like myself? :D I haven't decided on anyone beyond my first place vote and I don't particularly like the two FF candidates in my area (mind you, the FG candidate gave me detention once) so I'm open to pursuasion. :)

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I'll be voting far left with my first preference after that I'll be just trying to keep Fianna Fail out of government with my transfers.

I believe there should be higher tax rates for better public services. Only problem in this country is that you have clowns like Martin Cullen so I worry that the result of higher tax would simply be higher piddling away of money

Sell them to you?? I doubt I could give them to you for nothing :D

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Originally Posted by Macy

I think you've forgotten that SSIA's were actually introduced by McCreevy after he got bóllocked by the European Bank for a give away budget just before the last election. You remember, another one of those where the Government reduced the top rate rather than take people out of the tax net (at the time, minimum wage was still taxed).

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It may have been "after" that, but it wasn't "because" of that.

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There is no free education in this country, right down to primary level.

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explain? what will the government think about their money not being used, apparantly?

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Any average figure, particularly when it comes to stuff like salaries, is nonsense without the median as well. Any average pay calculation is pretty flawed in this country anyway as it works on the assumption that everything is through the books and ignores the abuses of supposed sub contracting. Hence why they claim that displacement and exploitation aren't happening.

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PPP isn't about salaries, its about raw purchasing power. My point from earlier that obviously went over the two lad's heads is that even if our figure is over-inflated, the same could be said for the nation in 2nd or 3rd place. the largest frequency would probably be below the average for them too. Thats why our ranking still holds up.

Jebus and Lim Till i Die - I realise that parts of Limerick are fooked but to say that people aren't better off now than 10 years ago is utter nonsense.

Everyone I know is better off including my friend in Limerick who works in retail and has just bought a house - which would have been impossible 10 or 20 years ago.

I'm 37 and I remember the 80s when virtually everyone who left my school emigrated. Now we have net-immigration into the strongest economy in Europe. Which is what people will remember when the cast their ballot, not Enda Kenny's hysterical scare-mongering about crime and daft promises about health.

KOH

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Jebus and Lim Till i Die - I realise that parts of Limerick are fooked but to say that people aren't better off now than 10 years ago is utter nonsense.

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The most bizarre thing was that they said limerick was having it tough, i agreed that limerick was having it tough and suggested a reason, and then they had a go at me for saying it was having it tough and gave lots of reasons they reckon they're not having it tough.

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Everyone I know is better off including my friend in Limerick who works in retail and has just bought a house - which would have been impossible 10 or 20 years ago.

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It would've been if he was allowed borrow 100% of the mortgage and allowed pay it back over 40 years*


*I realise this may not be the case with your mate

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Jebus and Lim Till i Die - I realise that parts of Limerick are fooked but to say that people aren't better off now than 10 years ago is utter nonsense.

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You can't use "people" and just imply that everyone's better off. I wouldn't dispute for a second that certain sectors of society are much better off but there are other parts which aren't

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The most bizarre thing was that they said limerick was having it tough, i agreed that limerick was having it tough and suggested a reason, and then they had a go at me for saying it was having it tough and gave lots of reasons they reckon they're not having it tough.

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What actually happened Gavin my dear is I was using the area of Limerick I'm from as an example but then you dived in two footed to tar the whole city ;)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

It would've been if he was allowed borrow 100% of the mortgage and allowed pay it back over 40 years*


*I realise this may not be the case with your mate

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True, he's a she. ;)

Don't know the ins-and-outs of her mortgage but she moved back to a vibrant up and coming city and is now a home-owner. 10 years ago she was forced to leave Limerick along with most of her mates. They are now returning in droves.

One look at Limerick city centre would tell anyone that the place has changed for the better. The same goes for all of our towns and cities. Yet things are worse according to some posters. :confused:

KOH

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Yet things are worse according to some posters. :confused:

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In certain areas - Sigh.............

Wasn't the area around our old ground described as Fallujah like by your travelling fans? ;) :p

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

PPP isn't about salaries, its about raw purchasing power. My point from earlier that obviously went over the two lad's heads is that even if our figure is over-inflated, the same could be said for the nation in 2nd or 3rd place. the largest frequency would probably be below the average for them too. Thats why our ranking still holds up.

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Indeed :rolleyes:

My lord why didn't I figure that out before :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Jebus and Lim Till i Die - I realise that parts of Limerick are fooked but to say that people aren't better off now than 10 years ago is utter nonsense.

Everyone I know is better off including my friend in Limerick who works in retail and has just bought a house - which would have been impossible 10 or 20 years ago.

I'm 37 and I remember the 80s when virtually everyone who left my school emigrated. Now we have net-immigration into the strongest economy in Europe. Which is what people will remember when the cast their ballot, not Enda Kenny's hysterical scare-mongering about crime and daft promises about health.

KOH

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I'm 48..... managed to buy my first house for £16k in 1981. Have been in continous gainful employment for last 27 years. So I'm one of the lucky ones because I've benefited from the rise in property prices and have been fortunate enough to have a had a very well paid career for a long number of years... however I will not be voting FF/PD for the following reasons.

(1)they have actively encouraged a two tier society... the likes of me who got into the property market when prices were cheap.... as against anyone under 35 who is now forced to take on huge mortgages for terms up to 40 years to buy shoddy homes miles outside of Dublin which means they have a huge commute. Where there is a couple involved they are restricted as to how many kids they can have because of the fear of being able to aford them...and when they do have kids they don't have the option of one parent staying at home to rear them and thus are forced to leave them in (many cases) crap creches from 6.30am to 6.30pm five days per week.

To avoid the above all they had to do was (1) implement the Kenny report which recommended capping the price of development land at its agri valu plus 25%. (2) Tax any investor on an increasing scale on their 2nd , 3rdetc houses. (3) Ensure that proper transport/schools etc infrastructures were put in place put in place.

(2) There is still a huge amount of "real" poverty in this country...approx 1 in 5 people. Despite that FF/PDs were able to give billions to the middle classes via the SSIA scheme (and yes I do have one) instead of diverting that money to the poor.

(3) The worsening levels of service provided by Angola ie our Health Service. Again lots of money spent but wasted. The MRSA levels increasing says it all as of course do the war zones that are known as our A&E depts.

(4) The great sell out by FF to various 3rd parties eg
(i) NTR, surely someone with even a gnats brain would of put in a clause which would of triggered a reduction in NTRs take in the event of x number of vehicles passing through...instead we are left with the taxpayer havig to cough up a fortune to buy them out. Interesting that Ray Bourke and George Redmond were the ones who agreed the NTR contract

(5) The sell of of off shore licences forthe Mayo coast to Statoil and BP for a pittaance with no come back in the event of a major viable gas/oil field been discovered.... contracts in this case negoiated by Bertie A and P Flynn.

(6) Failure in other areas, water pollution, nursing homes for the elderly, sell out to the Catholic hierarchy by capping their liability at only €150m and the States now having to pay out in excess of €850m and rising. Benching marking for public servants which was done without any transparancy at a huge cost to the taxpayer with no visable sign of any increase in produtivity etc.

(7) Bertie's gubu personal finance transactions...

(8) Our huge and growing larger obesity (excuse the pun) problem... adults I accept are responsible forthemselves but IMO more needs to be done by the state to ensure that children are given the chance of excercising properly...surely it is a no brainer to introduce some element of compulsory PE into the school curriculum ??

and that's just an off the top of the head list !!

Maybe no one cares enough and I sometimes wonder is it that fact that FF/PDs have tapped into and they reckon there are more seats to be gained by promising "goodies" like SSIAs etc rather than trying to focus on the social issues... so sure as a nation we are materially better off than when I was a kid , regretfully IMO as a nation we now seem to be without much of a conscience when it comes to social matters...I 'm not saying we were a great society 30/40/50 years ago and indeed the the magnitude of the evils of those times has become clear to us and I'm very happy to see the influence of the Church diminished greatly... I just think its a pity that now we have all this wealth we don't seem to be capable of sharing it in an equitable manner.