Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

I agree with Fixer. Also, it's just not true to say we need a miracle to get into the playoffs. If Sweden win in Vienna then I will believe it is highly unlikely alright, especially as it's goal difference that counts and not head-to-heads...does the criteria ever work out to our advantage?! Might be just me but it never seems to. Anyway, assuming Austria avoid defeat at home to Sweden, the table will either look like this (after both Sweden and ourselves beat the Faroes)...

If Austria beat Sweden	PLD	W	D	L	PTS
AUSTRIA	6	3	2	1	11
SWEDEN	6	3	2	1	11
IRELAND	6	3	2	1	11

or this...

If Austria and Sweden draw	PLD	W	D	L	PTS
SWEDEN	6	3	3	0	12
IRELAND	6	3	2	1	11
AUSTRIA	6	2	3	1	9

This will be the state of play going in to Ireland v Sweden and Germany v Austria. Does anybody really believe it would be a "miracle" to beat the Swedes at home?

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Originally Posted by Duggie

who would you replace him with?

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See my posts passim on this...

No outstanding candidates, but come next month Coyle, McDermott, Martin O'Neill and O'Driscoll could all be available. Or could be obtained.

And that's just the Irish candidates....

assuming wins over Kazakh and Faoroes and a defeat to Germany all we'd need is a win and a draw from Sweden and Austria to get a playoff spot. It's as good a position as we could expect to be in at this stage of the campaign. The playoff battle is perfectly poised, in terms of power points we're 1 behind Sweden and 1 ahead of Austria. We're doing fine.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

This will be the state of play going in to Ireland v Sweden and Germany v Austria. Does anybody really believe it would be a "miracle" to beat the Swedes at home?

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With Trap in charge. Yes, definitely.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

See my posts passim on this...

No outstanding candidates, but come next month Coyle, McDermott, Martin O'Neill and O'Driscoll could all be available. Or could be obtained.

And that's just the Irish candidates....

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Only in soccer would 2 englishmen, a scot and a Northern Irishman represent the "Irish" candidates. A sad state of affairs.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Ralf Rangnick
Thomas Schaff
Lucien Favre
Co Adriannse
Christoph Daum
Thomas Tucher
Mirko Slomka

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Rangnick has cfs or some other serious illness, isnt that why he left Schalke?
Schaff's at Bremen so I dont know if he would leave for us, although he might get the sack at the end of the season as Bremen's form is imploding - they should still be safe from relegation though.
Same story with Favre, dont see him leaving Gladbach, and unlike Schaff I cant see him getting sacked as Gladbach are midtable.
Adriaanse would be ironic given he replaced Trap at Saltzburg (and did a similar job to Trap there), but I think his training methods could be a problem for the team, and he's a bit of an egomaniac (not that much of a suprise in the context of Dutch footballers/managers) and tend to walk out on clubs early (Porto, Al Saad, Qatar).
Daum just left Bruges because of a prolonged / ongoing family illness, so I'm not sure he would consider a role with us.
Tuchel could be a good one, but again would he leave Mainz to join us, also bear in mind that Mainz has been his only job (apart from Augsburger Reserves) and with only 140 matches for them as manager (all domestic German bar one Europa preliminary which the lost to Gaz Medan or Romania) he might be a bit of a risk.
Again with Slomka you have the problem of would he realistically leave Hanover who he has been guiding up the league and into Europe, for us?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

With Trap in charge. Yes, definitely.

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If Sweden drop points to the Kazakhs (as Austria already have) or we get an away draw to Germany (as we did away to Russia) then drawing against both Sweden and Austria could see us through. We don't even need exceptional circumstances or a win against a serious team to qualify. It would be relying on other circumstances but that's how its always been, we haven't beaten a team of any worth in a competitive game since Holland in 2001. Had we won last night Trap would have overseen the biggest result in Irish football in 12 years.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Only in soccer would 2 englishmen, a scot and a Northern Irishman represent the "Irish" candidates. A sad state of affairs.

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You really are quite ignorant, aren't you?

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Had we won last night Trap would have overseen the biggest result in Irish football in 12 years.

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You are talking rubbish. Poor as they were and us when we got there, winning in Estonia to reach the Euros was a bigger game than last night...

Sweden may also drop points in Astana, its right after playing us in Dublin and with a long (and probably non-direct) flight in a reasonably tricky venue they might end up draw. They only eeked past them 2-0 in Malmoe (second goal was in 94th min) and the Kazakhs held the Austrians to 0-0 in Astana (as they did a year earlier in Euro 2012 qualification).

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

You really are quite ignorant, aren't you?

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Accurate. None of them were born in the country you're touting them to manage. None of them work or have worked in the country either. Their connection is distant at best. If we're going to go foreign we can do better, if we're going local we should get somebody who understands the landscape.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

You are talking rubbish. Poor as they were and us when we got there, winning in Estonia to reach the Euros was a bigger game than last night...

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In significance, not in the caliber of opposition. Estonia were a poor team who we were very fortunate to draw. Austria are more comparable to the level of Bulgaria or Montenegro who we failed to beat 4 times in a successful playoff campaign.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

If Sweden drop points to the Kazakhs (as Austria already have) or we get an away draw to Germany (as we did away to Russia) then drawing against both Sweden and Austria could see us through. We don't even need exceptional circumstances or a win against a serious team to qualify.

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It won't and we do.
If it pans out like you think above, we will be palced 9th in the play-off table.

Who are the realistic candidates?

Coyle
McDermott
O'Driscoll
Noel King
Keane

That's what we're looking at I reckon. Nothing fancy this time around.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Who are the realistic candidates?

Coyle
McDermott
O'Driscoll
Noel King
Keane

That's what we're looking at I reckon. Nothing fancy this time around.

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If that's what we're picking from I would be grand with that to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Accurate. None of them were born in the country you're touting them to manage. None of them work or have worked in the country either. Their connection is distant at best. If we're going to go foreign we can do better, if we're going local we should get somebody who understands the landscape.

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Brian McDermott was born an Irish citizen in England, how is that a distant connection? Seeing as he has experience managing players at the bottom of the Premier League, where most of our players ply their trade, he "understands the landscape" very well.

I am Irish-born Irish, but have lived outside of Ireland since 1986, and as such I can relate to those Irish who are born outside of Ireland. I find your comments that these people are somehow less Irish to be offensive.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Who are the realistic candidates?

Coyle
McDermott
O'Driscoll
Noel King
Keane

That's what we're looking at I reckon. Nothing fancy this time around.

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No
No
Unsure
Leave him where he's useful
Definitely not.

Foreign doesn't mean fancy. Fancy means expensive. We don't need expensive. We need intelligence, wit and reason.

I love how the only solace for the optimists and Trapologists here is relying on other results to go our way. The truth of the matter is that we are relying on Sweden and Austria to drop points and for us to get close to maximum points. Desparation and, for all intents and purposes, we require a mini-miracle.

Trap out.

Would be a ridiculous decision to get rid of him now. The only way a manager chosen for an international campaign shouldn't finish it is if it becomes an unmitigated disaster (Scotland for example). Ours isn't a disaster, as DeLorean highlighted a few posts above this, we still have a good chance of making the play-offs and we should see this out with Trap in charge.

I say that as someone who felt he should have gone after the Euros and as someone who feels he should leave after the World Cup campaign (even if it ends in Brazil) too.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Who are the realistic candidates?

Coyle
McDermott
O'Driscoll
Noel King
Keane

That's what we're looking at I reckon. Nothing fancy this time around.

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Probably could add Sam Allardyce to that list, West Ham seem to be paving the way for him leaving when his contract is up this summer

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

This will be the state of play going in to Ireland v Sweden and Germany v Austria. Does anybody really believe it would be a "miracle" to beat the Swedes at home?

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It certainly doesn't seem like it would be a miracle, but the last time Ireland beat a team seeded higher than them in a qualifying group was September 1st, 2001. Our success in reaching playoffs for World Cup 2010 and Euro 2012 was based on routinely beating teams like Austria at home in qualifying (and taking at least a point off them away). If we're left in a situation where we need more than a point vs Sweden or Germany then I think we're in trouble.

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Originally Posted by jebus

we still have a good chance of making the play-offs and we should see this out with Trap in charge.

I say that as someone who felt he should have gone after the Euros and as someone who feels he should leave after the World Cup campaign (even if it ends in Brazil) too.

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Are you sure? How...

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I love how the only solace for the optimists and Trapologists here is relying on other results to go our way. The truth of the matter is that we are relying on Sweden and Austria to drop points and for us to get close to maximum points. Desparation and, for all intents and purposes, we require a mini-miracle.

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Sweden, Austria and ourselves are all relying on each other dropping points in a pretty tight group really. Sweden probably have the slight upper hand right at this moment. That's generally the way these groups work unless you're a Holland, Germany, Spain or Italy. We also have a lot of control in our own hands but being realistic, as opposed to just optimistic, we will probably need a hand from elsewhere. I'm not a Trapologist, I was as frustrated as anybody when I saw the starting line-up and was pulling my hair out when he didn't make the right substitutions at the right times last night. That said, I believe he will be there for the rest of the campaign whether we like it or not and I'm okay with that. I don't even think it would make sense the FAI spending money they don't have to get rid of him.

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Originally Posted by Serb

It certainly doesn't seem like it would be a miracle, but the last time Ireland beat a team seeded higher than them in a qualifying group was September 1st, 2001. Our success in reaching playoffs for World Cup 2010 and Euro 2012 was based on routinely beating teams like Austria at home in qualifying (and taking at least a point off them away). If we're left in a situation where we need more than a point vs Sweden or Germany then I think we're in trouble.

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Yeah we'll have to do something which we haven't done in a while alright. The two points dropped last night were absolutely massive, there's no getting away from that but we are where we are and there's definitely no need to visit Lourdes just yet.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I love how the only solace for the optimists and Trapologists here is relying on other results to go our way. The truth of the matter is that we are relying on Sweden and Austria to drop points and for us to get close to maximum points. Desparation and, for all intents and purposes, we require a mini-miracle.

Trap out.

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They play each other twice so one or the other, or more likely both will have to drop points in those games, and like us they've both also got to play Germany again. You say "we're relying on Sweden and Austria to drop points" but it's a certainty that both will.

As I see it home wins against Faroes and Kazakhstan should happen, if we can beat Sweden at home (maybe 60:40) and draw with Austria away (again 60:40) we will probably get second irrespective of the result we get in Köln. If we had won last night we could probably have afforded to draw both at home to Sweden and away to Austria, but now instead of 2 points we'll probably need at least 4.

Edmundo - Do you think that would be enough to avoid being worst 2nd placed team also?

CHFH, I think you are missing the worst play-off place, but also I think you are wrong in that Austria and sweden taking 2 points each from their respective battles. Ibrahimovic will destroy these lads on his own. THey couldn't handle sammon when he jumped in the air, and he couldn't do anything else, how will they handle one player who is long and sammon combined and a lot more.

Austria beating Sweden at home is the only hope we have for qualifying. I'd like to see the odds on that.

POS - You could be right but in fairness football isn't always as straight forward as that. Ibra hardly touched the ball against us, I know we had Paul Green but still....

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

They play each other twice so one or the other, or more likely both will have to drop points in those games, and like us they've both also got to play Germany again. You say "we're relying on Sweden and Austria to drop points" but it's a certainty that both will.

As I see it home wins against Faroes and Kazakhstan should happen, if we can beat Sweden at home (maybe 60:40) and draw with Austria away (again 60:40) we will probably get second irrespective of the result we get in Köln. If we had won last night we could probably have afforded to draw both at home to Sweden and away to Austria, but now instead of 2 points we'll probably need at least 4.

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Trap's Ireland have never beaten a higher seeded team and just dropped points to the 4th seeds at home. How do you figure this is "60:40"?

Sweden and Austria playing out two draws is the best hope for us. My concern would be that Sweden drew in Germany, so unless we beat them in Dublin, then we are unlikely to finish ahead of them. I think Sweden will take 4 points off Austria, but I wouldn't rule out two draws. The Swedes will stumble to a win in Kazakhstan I think, but being the perennial qualifiers that they are, they will do enough there. A further major concern would be our goal difference compared to the other two.

I think with the right mentality and team we have it in our armour to beat the Swedes in Dublin or Austria in Vienna (can't believe I'm allowing myself to even think about finishing 2nd after last night). I amn't saying that we will those games, but I don't think we're totally out yet. The big problem though is that I don't think this campaign has seen the last of the McShane's, Wards or Sammon's of this world and they are the very players that will cost us points in games.

Anyhow my predictions for the rest of the games:

Ireland 3 Faroes 0
Ireland 1 Sweden 1
Ireland 0 Austria 0
Germany 2 Ireland 0
Ireland 2 Kazakhstan 0

Wrt the decisions made during/before the game: the only difference between us(the majority) and Trap is he is in the right frame of mind(an experienced manager v an avid supporter) when it comes to making those decisions, yet he isn’t actually making those decisions. I sometimes think that trapatoni likes to make a point and hopes that it just works out for him. And I think last night was a perfect example of this - it didn't work out for him.

Bungle I pretty much agree with all of that. I just don't see Austria drawing with Sweden away from home.

I despair at the standard of football played by Ireland. I won't fault the players, I blame the manager and his "tactics", we are a better side than what was displayed in the second half of last nights game. It is depressing to watch players running around aimlessly, playing a CF whose apparent purpose is to defend. The whole thing stinks, players being ordered to play a type of football that belongs in the stone age. The assumption is that we can't play, an assumption made by the manager as he protects his record and in doing so drives Irish football backwards.
Yes his job is to get qualification and the money that comes with it but surely somewhere in his contract is an accountability for development and progression of young players. On that he has failed, he is stumbling along so much so that even his interpreter seems to be confused by what he is trying to say. I look forward to his contract expiring.

Austria and Sweden are average international sides, the only good side in the group destroyed us. The Euros showed how far we are behind the best. We will fall further behind under this manager.

It's hard to say at this stage, we certainly wouldnt be near the top of the runners up table, but looking at the way the other groups are panning out:

In A you have to think Belguim/Croatia would be well ahead of us on points accrued.
In B we might have a chance of catching the runner up (Bulgaria, Czechs, Denmark) as they are getting congested and there have been a few draws between those teams already
In D again Hungary, Romania and Turkey have all drawn some games between each other but Hungary are starting to break free a bit.
In E (or the "group of life" (Swiss, Iceland, Albania, Norway, Cyprus, Slovenia) we have a good chance of doing better than the runners up, there are no standout teams and also no real whipping boys (Andorra, San Marino etc) and every team except the Swiss (who will probably win it) have lost at least 2 of their 5 matches.
In F you have to imagine that Russia will win the group and Portugal will pull away from Israel so I dont think we will catch the runner up there.
In G it's looking like Bosnia, Greece 1st and 2nd with a bit of daylight to the 3rd team so I wouldnt expect us to catch them.
In H we might have a chance since you have the top 4 teams (Montenegro, England, Poland, Ukraine) all of similar ability and all bunched together (if Poland and Ukraine win their games in hand 3 points would seperate the top 4) I can see draws in some of the Ukraine-England, Montenegro-Ukraine and England-Poland games so we could be near them.
In I no chance we'll catch France/Spain.

I have a hunch group E will provide the bottom runner up so who ever is second in our group (hopefully us) will be in the playoffs. If we do finish 2nd and miss out on the playoffs I dont think we can be to dissapointed as to come second would still be a good achievement in the group and there is a big element of luck in the runnners up table.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Trap's Ireland have never beaten a higher seeded team and just dropped points to the 4th seeds at home. How do you figure this is "60:40"?

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I dont think Sweden are a particularly strong team, aside from the 4-4 freak result in Berlin they have stumbled in qualification so far. The went 1-0 down in the Faroes before goals in the 65 and 75 gave them a very narrow win. At home to the Kazakhs they were very unconvincing in a 2-0 win (and it was 1-0 to the 94th min). In their 4 matches they've only played well in half an hour at the end of the Berlin match (and it's worth pointing out that for the first half of that match they were every bit as inept as we were against the Germans).

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Originally Posted by jebus

Would be a ridiculous decision to get rid of him now. The only way a manager chosen for an international campaign shouldn't finish it is if it becomes an unmitigated disaster (Scotland for example). Ours isn't a disaster, as DeLorean highlighted a few posts above this, we still have a good chance of making the play-offs and we should see this out with Trap in charge.

I say that as someone who felt he should have gone after the Euros and as someone who feels he should leave after the World Cup campaign (even if it ends in Brazil) too.

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Take your point, but the question is would we have a better or worse chance of qualifying without Trapp from here? If the answer is yes (and I think that is certainly the case) then he should go. And maybe there is an even more fundamental question in the light of the Euros. What is the point of qualifying under Trapp if we will inevitably end up being humiliated because there is no evidence that he can achieve results against the calibre of teams that we will be meeting in Brazil. His genius (I us the word with some degree of irony) is achieving unlikely away draws against teams better than us and scrambling unconvincing victories against teams far worse than us. Neither skill is likely to get us very far in Brazil. Maybe we could retain him as a specialist away coach for the Germany and Austria games and get a proper football manager in to win us the ones we need to win?

For everyone wheeling out the "We could still qualify" guff - what happens if we do qualify? Are we happy to see our team travel half way across the world and watch them under perform in Brazil? Whats the point in qualifying if we're not going to compete? With Trap in charge we'd go across and we'd have to sit and watch while he makes the same redundant team selections and "tactical decisions". He needs to go.

The team needs new ideas and a new perspective. Trap isn't going to provide them. The debate about who should be the one to provide them is going to be interesting though. I personally favour McDermott.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

What is the point of qualifying under Trapp if we will inevitably end up being humiliated

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So that we can go over there and have the craic obviously.

http://cdn.joe.ie//uploads/s/35/246//35246-xlarge.jpg

Words fail me whenever I hear the "what's the point in qualifying if we're not going to win" crap.

I want Ireland to win every game, and qualify for every tournament. As should every actual supporter of the team.

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Originally Posted by Wangball

For everyone wheeling out the "We could still qualify" guff - what happens if we do qualify? Are we happy to see our team travel half way across the world and watch them under perform in Brazil? Whats the point in qualifying if we're not going to compete? With Trap in charge we'd go across and we'd have to sit and watch while he makes the same redundant team selections and "tactical decisions". He needs to go.

The team needs new ideas and a new perspective. Trap isn't going to provide them. The debate about who should be the one to provide them is going to be interesting though. I personally favour McDermott.

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What's the point in playing the rest of the games if we're not going to qualify?

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Words fail me whenever I hear the "what's the point in qualifying if we're not going to win" crap.

I want Ireland to win every game, and qualify for every tournament. As should every actual supporter of the team.

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This, it's the same as posting "I can't wait to watch the World Cup on the couch, it's going to be so much better than being there"

Not to mention qualification itself is a fantastic achievement. It's nice to have ideas above our station and all that but we are a small country and generally our potential is fairly limited. Scotland became the first European country to be eliminated from the World Cup last night. Can you imagine if we were mathematically out of contention with only half the campaign gone?

Anyway, we would be unlikely to get a World Cup group as nasty as Spain, Italy and Croatia. We'd surely be in with somebody like Egypt or Saudi Arabia like previously and may even have a chance to reach the knock-outs. Then again, what would be the point in reaching the knock-outs if we might have to play somebody like Germany and lose.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

What's the point in playing the rest of the games if we're not going to qualify?

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Why do Spain bother defending their titles? They'll just lose them eventually.

What I'm saying is that if we're not going to be competitive in the qualification group - which it seems we are not - then the change should be made now to allow a new manager to come in and make some changes in a reduced pressure situation rather then watching Trap bluster on and get nowhere and ultimately achieve nothing.