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OK, purely hypotheticallyQuote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
1. A green flag with just the shamrock emblem would be OK
2. I've no problem with Ireland's call
3. Has to be meritocratic based on who's available and not rushing off to play for England instead
4. Belfast, Dublin and Derry are all fine.
1.Four Provinces flag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
2.'A Nation Once Again'
3.Anyone who's eligible! Or available. So not S.Ireland!
4. Beal-feirste if they build a stadium, or Belleek, Clones or wherever. More realistically, Newry or Derry??
I'd love to see an all-Ireland league. I think the addition of the Belfast teams in particular would be of great benefit to football on this island. Higher competition, new, fresh rivalries, and the whole "feel-good factor" of cross-border cooperation would be a breath of fresh air for the league.
However, I don't think it's the mystical "silver bullet", and I definitely don't think that we should have a united Irish football team. All that is going to achieve is to give the bigots south of the border a sense of vindication, and greatly **** off a sizeable proportion of people to the north of it.
Like it or not, (and I strongly disagree with their political views), the Unionists have been in Ireland longer than the US has been colonised by English speakers, and they will be here for a long time to come. We're going to have to live in peace with them, and taking away their football team because of nationalistic fervour isn't exactly the best way of going about that.
Hold on a second mate, I'm not trying to wind-up anybody here. I'm just puzzled as to why, if you say you are a proud Irishman, you would be against the creation of a team that represents all of those that are proud to be Irish. The only exclusion i'm making is of those who fiercly denounce their Irishness. Never would i claim that those who consider themselves in some way Irish are not just that. And to clarify I have strong ties to Ulster and am proud of what I believe it should represent. But as I said to see the concept of it appropriated by insular unionism is frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Btw, edit my last post. It should have read 'only second to that of ancient Greece in a European context'. Sloppiness on my part.
There are already two such teams, so need to create another whose most obvious effect would be replace the other two. I'm amazed that you can't grasp this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
Hardly anyone does, certainly not any Northern Ireland fan. The clue's in the name.Quote:
The only exclusion i'm making is of those who fiercly denounce their Irishness
Except they're only there because their ancestors were transplanted there. What about the views of the indigeneous people? Be it in Ulaidh or wherever else in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Accepting the current situation is fair enough, but it means it vindicates an historically illegal colonial occupation and Orange triumphalism and has at times greatly p*ssed off a number of people to the south of it !
:rolleyes:
Still, suppose we could turn a 'blind eye' to the excesses that have maintained this.
So tricolour ditched altogether? I have a problem with Ireland's call. Ridiculous piece of PC tripe. Decent alternative would have to be found. It would be a tough one personally to dump Ámahrán na bhFiann. Venues you mentioned would be fine but you'd have to concede that the principle venue would have to be in Dublin given the respective populations both sides of the border.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
That's like something taken from the BNP school if thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I was born and bred in Belfast, in Northern Ireland, on the island of Ireland. I am proud of that. I am a British Citizen, and proud of that too.
I am (Northern) Irish and British...I do not view these as mutually exclusive.
When you demean any part of that, you demean all of me.
Of course they are. Colonialism is disgusting and morally unacceptable. However, do you propose we start to essentially repress the culture and traditions of the majority of people who live in the USA and Northern Ireland in the present day just because their ancestors from 400 years ago happened to be imperialist warmongers?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I'm happy enough with the current situation, whereby Republicans in the North can choose to play for the Republic, but Unionists can make the choice to play for a side that reflects their own political views.
Although I would like to see the people of the predominantly nationalist counties north of the border to be given the chance to democratically join the Republic if they so wish.
Heh, I think you may have musunderstood an admittedly weak gag. Try re-reading it as Stormont, Clontarf and Eglinton. The first named is clearly the principal venue, even if you don't like it in principle ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
Fine, don't drop it. Keep supporting your team and leave us ours.Quote:
It would be a tough one personally to dump Ámahrán na bhFiann
Okay, sorry i'm just influenced by the hardline pro-British, anti-Irish approaches adopted by the majority of political figures that represent the Unionist population - who make up the majority of the NI supporter population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
You support re-partition, as a final settlement to our age old dispute?Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Only because the unionists until recently have made extremely limited efforts to integrate with the native Irish. Have no objections to them being there, but their behaviour towards Irish people has hardly being impeccable....and in reality they're not remotely interested in being branded 'Irish' or they would have accepted the end of British rule decades ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And ended their obsession with every warped British symbol going....
[QUOTE=Gather round;1280055]Heh, I think you may have musunderstood an admittedly weak gag. Try re-reading it as Stormont, Clontarf and Eglinton. The first named is clearly the principal venue, even if you don't like it in principle ;)
Touché Gather. Not at my best this morning.;)
Well the native Indians and Irish should both seek substantial damages from the numerous parties who were happy to conduct genocide on their peoples, but given that's the present US, German, French, Spanish, Dutch and Brit. governments I'm sure double standards :rolleyes: will definitely apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
And yer right. At the very least, the border is a farce and any occupied territory should be restricted to 1-2 counties max. Though you wouldn't want to be an Irish Catholic in that particular theme park....
I'm glad you've no objections to me being here (even though I've been here since birth, as have my family for generations), but that's still the stuff of Nick Griffen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I should have said earlier, that, when you demean any part of me, you will not "unite" me.
I don't have an "obsession" with being British - I AM a British Citizen - proudly, unrepentantly, and unapologetically. Not to **** you off, I hasten to add...it's simply what I am.
Fine, don't drop it. Keep supporting your team and leave us ours.[/QUOTE]
Happy to oblige. Honestly don't think it would work. Football stirs passions in a way rugby cannot. Would be more trouble than its worth.
Can't speak for them, or even analyse their lives in much detail before about 125-150 years ago, but I'd hazard a guess most of them were dirt-poor and forced to move by economic/ social pressure. So pretty much the opposite, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
A further partition is theoretically possible. There's a running gag about this on the Slugger O'Toole site; Derry and Newry might well vote 85-90% for joining, while at the same time Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway might choose to reject them. So you'd be left with a partition into three ;)Quote:
Although I would like to see the people of the predominantly nationalist counties north of the border to be given the chance to democratically join the Republic if they so wish
You call it 'conceding ground', I call it 'giving it up my team'. As the more reasoning RoI fans have repreatedly asked on this thread, why on Earth would I do that? It makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
But it's your lot NG's & the BNP are appealing to:rolleyes:....Have you not noticed their name or colour scheme??
And in Ireland, no-one's trying to force unionists out, just not wanting them to enforce an aggressive, triumphalist 'Britishness' (Thought you were previously 'Irish'??) on the Native Irish.
I support democracy. I support the right of the predominantly Unionist communities to remain a part of the UK by democratic consensus as well, and if, say, Fermanagh, decided, to remain part of Northern Ireland in a democratic vote, I would happily accept their decision. But this isn't really the place or time to discuss it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I disagree. Nobody in the current standing governments were involved in the genocides of the colonial era, and none of the taxpayers who would foot the bill were either. I would settle for an end to organised state oppression, and equal opportunities, which both countries are moving swiftly towards (although I doubt the US, with its horrendously deep poverty trap, will ever see true equality, but that is a completely different discussion).Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Again, I disagree. The current Northern Irish administration has shown a committment to equal rights and the end of discrimination against the nationalist community. I see no reason to think that would change, and state-sanctioned discrimination would resume should the North shrink from six counties to three.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Peadar,
Just to acknowledge your points. Don't agree with them but will consider a wider justified response.
Okay, frankly thats a matter of opinion. My vision for an All-Ireland team would be a sharing of stadia , pooling of resources that helps both sets of Ireland players and supporters experience major tournaments more regularly and even working together to host a major tournament (and needless to add, the benefits of an All-Ireland League). Yes its extremely idealistic but i see absolutely no problem with the NI flag and the tricolour being waved side by side, representing a one-island team. Never gonna happen though-not in the near future anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
All the NI supporters on this thread, as well as many of your own fans, have told you repeatedly that we aren't interested in an all-Ireland football team. All Northern Ireland fans pretty much by definition agree. If you and the other stirrers on here want to make any more of an issue of it, do it amongst yourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
1. While I would understand the probable opposition to the Tricolour being used, I would suggest that people should remind themselves of the symbolism contained within it. Failing that, a four province flag would be an acceptable alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
2. Perhaps a new anthem could be written, although Ireland's Call works for the rugger heads, right? Is it you SD, that sees Ireland's Call as 'PC tripe'? If so, could you explain why? I would see no problem with being inclusive if it would mean a re-united Irish nation and football team.
3. Player selection would be as expected. Pick the best players who are available and willing to play for their country.
4. This is probably a bit out there, but perhaps we could rotate venues in each of the four provinces for friendlies and such? Belfast, Galway, Cork, Dublin? The problem would be finding or building suitable stadia. However, given that the infrastructure is already in place in Dublin, it's the obvious preference.
Where would the new 'merged' football association be based? There should be offices in each province. I'd be willing to accept these kinds of changes in favour of an all-Ireland team. Why not?
Read the rest of the thread and stop stirring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
GR I respect your points of view and I've read through the thread. Call it stirring all you want, but I encourage as much logical and reasoned discussion on this matter. My 'why not?' sentiment was more indicative of my stance on this and if you don't like that then fine, don't reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Yeah, you'd wonder why they do.
You've had- repeated ad nauseam on the thread- a clear reply to the suggestion and implied invitation in the thread title. None of your (plural) various responses thereafter have been sufficiently logical nor reasoned to actually accept this original reply. Let me put it slightly more starkly: we ain't interested in joining your football team even if you encourage all our fans to wear berets, smoke gauloises and play the fcuking accordion to accompany the national anthems. OK?
But what if we were interested in joining yours.....
;)
And although you seem to have embraced a 'Gallic' theme (Is that the 'Britishness' in you coming out;thought you were claiming some sort of 'Irishness) ??), surely the bowler hats, drum 'n' bass and bonfires is more your type of gesture?
No contradictions there with that kind of statement. :rolleyes:
Hold on, this is a discussion thread. I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. I have respectfully listened to your views on this. It is perfectly fair if as you say that the majority of NI fans are totally against the idea of an AI team and I accept that. My opinion is that the existence of such a team would benefit both Irelands in terms of footballing success. If there is vehement opposition to such a proposal so be it. But as mentioned this is a discussion forum where people offer opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
And as for 'Ireland's Call', my skin crawls when I here such a cheesy, meaningless, lyrically feeble piece of garbage being sung in place of my national anthem. Fine, if its inappropriate to sing Ámhrán na bhFiann or GSTQ, at least come up with a more accomplished alternative. No offence to your Derry compatriot Predator!;)
Like it or not, so long as it remains part of the UK, GSTQ is the NA for NI. It is the equivalent of the SS. And whether or not it reflects people's views is neither here nor there. It's the anthem and should be afforded the same respect as any other anthem.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Judging by the evidence i.e. their posts, your fellow countrymen are much more pro-royal than I have been, or would ever be. And those that I know still live in the RoI(or at least did when I saw them last).Quote:
Those posters on OWC, of which I am one, I'd say are simply sensitive to a somewhat delicate situation, like myself. Most may also live in Northern Ireland JohnB. (and be fairly enlightened)
But we shouldn't require sympathy, just a level playing field and, the IRFU have failed to provide this. This, added to the whole host of other reasons discussed on this thread demonstrate I think why NI fans would never warm to the idea of an all-Ireland team.Quote:
For the record - I have always had much sympathy for players and supporters from Northern Ireland at Irish rugby matche
United by insomnia;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
I don't know anyone from NI who doesn't consider themselves Irish (or Northern Irish). But your very narrow view of Irishness, based on myth, would not suit many, certainly not me. Legends are interesting, but they tell us very little about who we are in a modern context. And all this stuff about being non-native? (not your phrase Scooby). It's very odd from many persectives, not least when we analyse the movement of gaelic-speaking people into what we now call Scotland. When they returned en masse many centuries later, were they returning natives?
Personally, I prefer the mongrel view. We're a mish-mash of settlers from across the ages and actually, our political and historic perspective is based mainly on our upbringing, rather than the blood of our forefathers.
We will have to agree to disagree on that one. It is Northern Ireland that is being represented, not the UK. It has to have it's own official, cross-community anthem. GTSQ is neither of these and I'm afraid it is 'here or there' whether it reflects/represents the people of Northern Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Pro-royal :confused:..............how so?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
The IRFU has not failed to provide it, Northern Ireland as an entity has failed to provide it by not having it's own anthem, in common with the Scot's and the Welsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Wouldn't agree entirely, but the most objective view to date emanating from the North.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
But you need to share this with more than one or two of your, er, compatriots, based on previous experience and the stance of the political parties that represents the vast majority of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc34JKvCQ3Q feeling mischievous JohnB, but check out 2.45. Funny stuff! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
You've got me wrong anyway I'm just saying that the great mythology of Ulster is one of the more important cornerstones of Irish/Gaelic identity and to see the concept of Ulster usurped by staunch unionism annoys me - rightly or wrongly.
(one example) http://gaelico.files.wordpress.com/2...ainn-mural.jpg
But it is only one part of Irish identity, i admit, as important as it is.
^ sweet Jesus! That's wrong and funny on so many levels.
Oh! while on the subject of murals, apparently one of Thierry Henry is going up on the Shankill Road.
That is the most pathetic, juvenile thing i've heard in a long time. NI never ceases to amaze me.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Prepare to be amazed a bit more Scooby!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
It's reported that the mural, which has just been started, will depict Henry with a red-hand, as in the Red-Hand of Ulster, and sporting a Glasgow Rangers top.
Note - this is what is being reported, so don't quote me on it. We'll just have to wait for it to be finished for confirmation, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it is indeed true. Oh well!
Have you a link for this?! I hope its a wind up!!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
They'll never appeal to me - of that I can assure you.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Can you please get your head around the fact that I am British and Irish?
Will you accept the democratically expessed wishes of the vast majority of people in your jurisdiction that uphold, and respect, my right to be both?
I seek in no way to assert my "Britishness" agressively, or triumphiantly, upon anyone.
I am "native" to the island of Ireland....born and bred, like generations of my family before me.
I'm not going away.
I can also assure you the nobody will be asserting their narrow, myopic, view of "Irishness" upon me.