*Bangs head against keyboard repeatedly*
Printable View
*Bangs head against keyboard repeatedly*
"As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable."Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Well you got one thing right - the EL is much better then that joke of a league (minus moneybags celtic and rangers). I'd say Monaghan United would probably take Hearts...
The SPL is fully professional, has vastly superior budgets, stadia and profile, even if you take out the big three. Some of our clubs might well give SPL clubs a game of it, but we've a long way to go to catch up with them in many, many ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So just because a league has silly money to sign has-been internationals it's automatically better? Is the J-League in Japan that good? Or all those middle eastern leagues that pay megabucks? Henrik Larsson is the Kevin Doyle of Scottish Football, but how many players have failed in England only to be a success in Scotland, or been a success in Scotland yet failed when they transferred out? Chris Sutton, Liam Miller, Jean-Alain Boumsong.
Not sure what you mean by trophies, we have 3 in the EL, same as most leagues? What external trophies have scottish clubs won recently?
The most recent comparison between Irish and Scottish football resulted in an embarrassment for the Scottish team, albeit a first division team, but one with larger revenues, stadium, salaries etc.. Nobody can be sure of how Irish teams would do, but it is accepted by people who follow EL week in week out that the top teams in the EL would be more than on a par with the bottom clubs in the SPL and I think that they'd definitely be mid table rather than relegation fodder.
As for European results, Scotland's ranking of the 12th best league in Europe would majorly drop without the annual input of Rangers and Celtic. Over the 5 year period prior to this one, they have earned over 100 co-efficient points between them. With 4 teams in Europe, this means that those 2 teams provided almost 85% of the ranking points annually! Take the average of the other teams in Europe and the SPL would be closer to 30th position. A corollary of the Derry victory could well be that the SPL will lose a European spot in a few years.
I know what yer trying to say G H but having watched both (scottish albeit only on tv) i cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can say that (minus celtic/rangers) scottish football is of a better quality then irish. it SHOULD BE for all the cash and nice stadia but the fact of the matter is ... it aint!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galway Harps
Apart from Kilkenny and possibly Monaghan, all EL teams would be more then a match for any scottish team - and all our Premier teams (...maybe not bray actually) would dismantle any scottish side. In fairness even the northern league (Irish league??) teams would give scottish sides a game. Im not talking up our league (as it has a lot of limitations) but pointing out how ridiculously overrated the scottish league is!
Ah hold on a minute there, it's overrated, but let's not get carried away here. The argument is generally over how much better the SPL is compared to the EL, and the arguments range from miles better, to not better at all. I don't think any EL sides would be expecting to dismantle a scottish side to be fair. Overall, it is a better league, just not by the light years that most Sellthick customers would have you believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by ciaraa
Fair enough, you've persuaded me, the EL is on a par with the SPL (the Old Firm's money aside), Monaghan Utd would finish in 2nd place above Hearts, Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England, the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers and Kevin Doyle is going to finish his career with a swansong for Barcelona in the Champions League Final.
Now can somebody please address the points I made regarding the original topic of this thread, namely, if the present ROI squad is so over-rated, over-paid and over there (in England), so that a team drawn from the EL would do better, why aren't there scouts from all over the world flocking to sign these EL players?
After all, they'd cost a fraction of the price of the dopes they're replacing.
Unless, of course, it's anti-EL prejudice (of the type ascribed by one poster to Steve Coppell, one of the few coaches who has actually put his money where his mouth is).
And while we're at it, could someone please explain to me why Brian Kerr didn't pick more EL players.
In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.
Bird Flu? Global Warming? Islamic Militancy? :confused:
As you said in your first post,you didn't see the Cyprus game and are presumably not a regular Ireland watcher (assuming you are watching Norn Iron at the same time), nor have you any experience of the EL in recent times.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Why don't you go away, inform yourself, we'll take your points away and we can all discuss more then.
Or possibly, since you've already made your mind up on the limited amount of info available to you, why don't we just agree to disagree.
yepQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It is, but it's also the same J-A B who played for Newcastle and made Andy O'Brien look goodQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Shels and Cork were within a game or two of qualifying for the Champions League group stages - means absolutely nothing because that "game or two" was at a level above where they were capable of playing.Quote:
In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.
The Irish team does not have an abundance of quality - since they beat Holland in 2001, they have beaten only Iran, Saudi Arabia, Georgia, Albania, Cyprus and the Faroe Islands competitively. They were a game or two away from a playoff against Turkey, not a game that they would have had any confident expectation of winning.
This team did not "suddenly become unutterably crap", they've been heading that way for a long time!
People here are not advocating that the team be replaced wholeheartedly with El players, but they are certainly suggesting that EL players could be brought in to play in positions they are playing in weekly, rather than average English based players playing out of position. The point is that a centre-half who has been playing all season would be a better choice than a player who hasn't played a game yet. A holding midfield player from Cork is better in that role than a left winger from Wigan. A top EL keeper would be better than a keeper playing at relegation fodder 3rd tier English football.
You mention players in the EL who had a chance and didn't make it at the top level in England. Why is the squad now heading towards picking players who had a chance and didn't make it but opted to drop several divisions in England? What's the difference? Are you going to argue that the standard of Brighton Hove Albion is higher than the standard of Derry, Cork, Shels, Drogs?
ORA, I can see how fans of EL clubs, disgusted at the display in Nicosia (I've since seen "highlights", btw) and bearing in mind a raise in EL standards, might suggest that the players be replaced by EL players. That's football for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
But as an outside observer, I wondered why, if EL players are good enough to play at international level, foreign scouts haven't been snapping them up to play in bigger, more professional Leagues. After all, the exploits of Derry and Shelbourne, plus the success of Kevin Doyle, should have alerted them to any bargains to be had.
Further, I wondered why Brian Kerr, uniquely placed to assess EL players' suitability for international football, rarely picked EL players.
You can slag me off all you like (doesn't bother me in the slightest), but no-one has as yet addressed these simple questions.
My own view is that if there is a problem with the present squad seriously underperforming, when they ought to be good enough to beat Cyprus with relative ease, then the first solution should not be to rush to replace the players with substitutes of debateable suitability, rather it should be to look at what has changed during the last 12 months, when roughly the same bunch of players were performing rather better.
It seems to me that the problem lies with Staunton, so that a wholesale clearout of the players as well as the manager would risk "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
After all, it works the other way that a new manager can quickly improve a group of underperforming players, as Walter Smith has shown with Scotland, or Martin O'Neill at Villa.
For further evidence to support my theory, you need only look to the NI team, which has players drawn from a similar background to that of Staunton's (though not quite so good, imo), who have proven that with the right leadership, it is quite possible for an Irish team of players from the various English divisions, to compete respectably at international level (unless it's against Iceland:( ).
You seem to think that every player in every league in the world that isn't one of the big European leagues leaves once they are good enough.There are plenty of players in Norwegian teams, Swedish teams that are good enough for the Premiership/Championship etc, but don't sign for any number of reasons.And I don't just mean from the likes of Rosenberg, Aik.I mean clubs like IK Start, who were blessed to get past Drogheda.
Although I've seen quite a bit of clubs at Brighton's level, I'm not familiar with EL clubs, so I'll reserve comment as to how they compare.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac
However, your citing of Wayne Henderson to support your case is an interesting one.
Just as Given & Kenny play at a v.high level, NI have a similarly well-qualified top two in Taylor and Carroll. However, Sanchez has decided upon Michael Ingham of Wrexham, a division below Henderson, as his clear third choice.
This is in preference* to top young IL keepers such as Glentoran's Elliott Morris and Linfield's Alan Mannus. Sanchez is aware of what they can both do, since Morris has both "B" and U-21 Caps, and Mannus actually played for the senior team during a Caribbean Tour soon after Sanchez took over.
Personally, I suspect Sanchez may be influenced by the fact that after starting his career at Cliftonville, Ingham then had a spell at Sunderland (inc. when they were in the Premiership). When that didn't work out, he elected to drop down the English Divisions rather than move back to an IL club.
This is in contrast to Morris, who moved back to the IL, after he failed to make the grade with WBA.
Despite being a Glens fan, I certainly wouldn't argue with Sanchez choice, since Ingham has done very well whenever he's been called upon and everyone speaks very highly of his dedication to his profession.
* - Ingham is also preferred over Doncaster's young keeper Blayney, Alan Fettis of Bury (25 caps) and Aidan Davison of Colchester in the Championship (the latter two because of age)
P.S. Just remembered, Ingham is also preferred over Pat Jennings Jr. of, ahem, Derry City...;)
Wow, he is preffered over Derry's reserve keeper?Yipideedoodaa
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
The championship in England is a cut above the EL. Henderson played last season at Brighton.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the EL is full of Premiership, La Liga or Serie A standard players but neither was the Ireland team that played against Cyprus. To follow up your point above, no one has snapped up Andy O'Brien to play at a higher level than Portsmouth's reserves. An EL XI isn't going to happen, and nor should it but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that one or two would have been out of place.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Thats the bottom line for me Schumi. Some el players are the 3rd/4th/5th/5th best players available in their positions, yet some are still overlooked.
Where did I say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
I just think that the better teams, in the better Leagues, tend to have better players.
Of course, there are occasional exceptions such as Larsson when he was at Celtic and there may well be similar exceptions in the EL, but I still feel that they are just that: exceptions.
Btw, I don't come on here just to have a pop at the EL. When I lived in Belfast I was a regular supporter of IL football and since moving to London I've watched a lot of lower League football.
In fact, I heartily dislike the way so-called "smaller" clubs get overlooked at the expense of the "big" Premiership clubs - and I say that as a lifelong Spurs fan.
That PJ comment was just a wee "dig".Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
Would you like to address my main point which was that Ingham of the English "4th." Division is regularly preferred over Mannus and Morris, the top two IL keepers, by Sanchez, a manager who started out at Sligo Rovers.
I've always thought that Sanchez thinks that both the EL and IL, in particular the EL are the same as they were when he was manager.Idon't think he can comprehend the improvement made, particularly in the full time set ups in the EL
You are opening up and Irish League vs Eircom League debate, do we really want to go down that road? Whatever about the relative strengths of the Blues and Glens, I get more exercise putting out the washing that Mannus or Morris do against the likes of Loughall and Limavady.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen