Derry City applying for Grant Aid

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28/04/2008, 3:15 PM
Krstic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm sure EG wouldn't mind if you mentioned in passing that he came from Brentford...or Leitrim :)

I don't care where he's from.

What i do mind is why he continues to link the Home ground of Derry City with one of the most famous Ghettos of our troubled past, in order to enhance his arguement.

As I said before it's like me saying that Linfield are from the Shankill, because of the obvious connection between both. Which in my opinion if I did it once is excusable as being ignorant, but if I continued after having been corrected then it is deliberately misleading or mischevious.

Funny also that when I pulled him up on this issue, on post 77 and 82, he has failed to respond but then returns today with the same old arguement and added complaint of being labelled a bigot.
Why didn't he just respond to the posts questioning his motives for claiming that the brandywell stadium was in the bogside??
28/04/2008, 3:18 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Thank you, Maribor, for a reasoned and reasonable response. I have to say that the guts of �10m of taxpayers money is a hell of a sum for 50 full-timne jobs, especially since the days of Governments pumping money into private commercial enterprises to sustain employment (e.g. De Lorean) are long gone. And do we know how many of these will be jobs as employees of DCFC?

It seems to me that your club does have a gripe, but it is with your local Council who are being unhelpful, not anyone in the Stormont, never mind NI football. Therefore, it should not be for the NI/UK/ROI taxpayer to sort this out.
In the end, this will be an amenity for Derry (and the North West, to a lesser extent). Therefore, it should be local government i.e. Derry City Council, to fund this regeneration of their own area. After all, they have apparently been more than generous with local ratepayers' property in helping out a couple of local GAA clubs.
Otherwise, they should be funded from football sources, via the appropriate Association (whether FAI or IFA, but not both). Were it to be the latter, I recall (I think on this site, from An Fear Beag?) a post where he praised the IFA for their assistance to Cliftonville in redeveloping Solitude. The sum there was just over �1m iirc.

This suggests a fundamental mis-understanding of the role and scope of local authorities in NI though EG.

Derry City Council is doing what it can do, by agreeing to a long-lease sale of the Brandywell to Brandywell properties Ltd if it can show that it has the funds to re-develop the stadium/area. This is no less than it has done for other sports (i.e. GAA) where they've had much less complicated leases and covenants to manoeuvre around (e.g. Piggery Pidge for Sean Dolans GAC).

Unlike Local authorities in England, DCC has neither the budget nor in reality the remit for genuine local authority-lead regeneration. Under the new stream-lined Councils model that will change, as more powers wil be devolved out of Belfast to each of the Councils - but as the saying goes, Councils in NI currently do little more than 'sweep the streets and bury the dead'. So given that DCC do not have any money to fund this regeneration, as you recommend, what alternative way forward do you suggest ?

And why would a rejhuvenated Brandywell only be a facilioty for the perople of Derry ? We had a Northern Ireland youth game at the stadium earlier this month, as we have done in the past. Why couldn't a rejuvenated Brandywell be a stadium for the whole of the North - regularly hosting other NI games right up to U21/U23 level ? You never know - it might even win the North some new fans for a change.

Plus - it's a very dangerous road to go down in Northern Ireland to suggest that funding should only be available centrally for anythign that is percieved as a province-wide re-development, and should be done locally (even thought the funds don't exist..) for everything else. Not only does that ignore the blatant funding bias that happens in Council chambers of all colours around the province - but a very strong arguement could also be made to say that any new home for the NI football team that didn't incorporate other sporting codes would only be of use/appeal to 50%+ of the population. So should not receive any central government funding.

This issue is nowhere near as simplistic as you're making it out to be.
28/04/2008, 3:23 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm sure EG wouldn't mind if you mentioned in passing that he came from Brentford...or Leitrim :)

Thanks for the corrections above. I got my Fir/ Fear and Fawr mixed up. One of those might be Welsh and not mean wee. My coat? Thanks...

Fir/Fear are both Irish for Men/man.

I don't know what 'Fawr' means, but it sounds Welsh. Though the word for small in Cymraeg is 'Beg' - similar to 'Beag' as Gaeilge. Which takes us back to where we began....:D
28/04/2008, 3:24 PM
Cymro

The word for 'small' in Cymraeg is 'bach', pronounced like you would the German composer.

Sorry Steve :D
28/04/2008, 3:24 PM
SwanVsDalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Without this grant aid, there is no reason why a lesser sum could not be adequate to bring the Brandywell up to the level, say, of Solitude or Shamrock Park, or even Mournview

I think it's fair to say that facilities on this island, as a whole, need to improve. And what better place is there to start than Derry? This money will create a stadium, business units and a wider community inititive that will last for years. I don't really think that putting a million in now and then another million in down the line is going to solve any problems.

NI's second city deserves decent community sports facilities and a modestly sized all seater stadium. DCFC have done all they can to secure these things, unlike most of the clubs you have listed as having as compelling an argument. Let them fight their own corner and good luck to them - they may also find that if you don't ask, you don't get.
28/04/2008, 3:26 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

The word for 'small' in Cymraeg is 'bach', pronounced like you would the German composer.

Sorry Steve :D

Well corrected Cymro !
28/04/2008, 3:34 PM
kingdom hoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Have you read the rest of the thread?

Painstakingly so. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Ealing Green's stance is perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

I agree that EG is coming at this from a seemingly reasoned perspective; why should funding come from two governments, why not local, etc. My problem is that he's asking why a good cause shouldn't get funding (and finding any Procrustean argument to fit) rather than appraising the application from a 'oh that would be good, how can we facilitate that' kind of perspective. Just seems a little sour for my sweet-liking palate is all.
28/04/2008, 3:36 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Thanks for the corrections above. I got my Fir/ Fear and Fawr mixed up. One of those might be Welsh and not mean wee. My coat? Thanks...

Haven't seen Fawr before but Ulster Irish is like a different language anyway. ;)
28/04/2008, 3:50 PM
SwanVsDalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

And why would a rejhuvenated Brandywell only be a facilioty for the perople of Derry ? We had a Northern Ireland youth game at the stadium earlier this month, as we have done in the past. Why couldn't a rejuvenated Brandywell be a stadium for the whole of the North - regularly hosting other NI games right up to U21/U23 level ? You never know - it might even win the North some new fans for a change.

This thread has already highlighted John Byrne's statement - that the Brandwell would be in line to host games in Ireland�s bid for the 2011 U-21 European Championships. It would be a massive boost to the city and the country and, with the dearth of quality stadia, Ireland's bid to hold the tournament would be severely dented without projects like the Brandywell going through.

If not we'd be facing the prospect of 4/5 top quality stadiums centralised around Belfast and Dublin.
28/04/2008, 3:58 PM
kingdomkerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenforever

Would you be happy to see the FAI or the Irish gov give funding to Linfield?

I would be not be happy as the people involved in Linfield are not Irish citizens. Therefore they should get sweet **** all from the Irish Gov
28/04/2008, 4:07 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krstic

I don't care where he's from.

What i do mind is why he continues to link the Home ground of Derry City with one of the most famous Ghettos of our troubled past, in order to enhance his arguement.

As I said before it's like me saying that Linfield are from the Shankill, because of the obvious connection between both. Which in my opinion if I did it once is excusable as being ignorant, but if I continued after having been corrected then it is deliberately misleading or mischevious.

Funny also that when I pulled him up on this issue, on post 77 and 82, he has failed to respond but then returns today with the same old arguement and added complaint of being labelled a bigot.
Why didn't he just respond to the posts questioning his motives for claiming that the brandywell stadium was in the bogside??

You are entirely mistaken when you read sectarian or political connotations into what was just a slip on my part.
For the record, your use of the terms "continue to link", or "repeatedly" [type Bogside] is very misleading. I typed it first in what was actually my 15th post on this thread. I don't quite know why I did, but there you go.
You then took me up on it at 9.49 pm, but I genuinely didn't see this, since I was composing a response to DCFC Steve (posted by me at 9.58 pm), which included the only other occasion I used it. And seeing as it had been a long day, I then logged off for the evening.
The following day, I noticed your correction for the first time, but didn't think to reply, both because the stadium location didn't actually form any significant part of my argument as far as I was concerned, but also because Gather Round answered adequately on my behalf in his post (#112).
Since then, I've not repeated my error in any of my six posts, all of which covered points which for me were much more substantive and significant.

But if my slip irks you, then accept my apology and feel free to substitute "Brandywell area", "Cityside" or "Derry" (or whatever) in the two offending posts where I used the term "Bogside" - it won't for me change the point I was trying to make.

P.S. In the meantime, if it was me you were referring to in your post #67, when you stated, "I couldn't give a rats ass if some Belfast **** is unhappy at my club" then I would point out that I might be a ****, but I most certainly am not from Belfast. Or were you making further groundless assumptions about me from my Avatar?
Now that would be ironic, don't you think? :rolleyes:
28/04/2008, 4:10 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

I would be not be happy as the people involved in Linfield are not Irish citizens. Therefore they should get sweet **** all from the Irish Gov

you belong here.
28/04/2008, 4:45 PM
Dodge

Sweet jesus, this thread is a mess of populist crap, political nonsense and the odd bit of reasoned debate (on both sides)

Anyway, poll added. I've made it a public vote (i.e. not hidden) as I'm interested to see how many from the Republic go for either side. I think any votes not from the republic shouldn't count personally...
28/04/2008, 4:54 PM
Sheridan

I don't feel I can answer that question personally, as I believe every League of Ireland club should receive massive reparations from the government for decades of neglect. Whether I think Derry City alone should benefit to the tune of �5m for this particular project is a separate matter.
28/04/2008, 5:06 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Derry City Council is doing what it can do, by agreeing to a long-lease sale of the Brandywell to Brandywell properties Ltd if it can show that it has the funds to re-develop the stadium/area. This is no less than it has done for other sports (i.e. GAA) where they've had much less complicated leases and covenants to manoeuvre around (e.g. Piggery Pidge for Sean Dolans GAC).

I had thought, from reading posts by DCFC fans both here and elsewhere, that they were not nearly so accepting of the local Council's apparent ability to facilitate GAA clubs (by granting free land etc), in contrast to its apparent inability to facilitate the football club. If my impression was mistaken then feel free to disabuse me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Unlike Local authorities in England, DCC has neither the budget nor in reality the remit for genuine local authority-lead regeneration. Under the new stream-lined Councils model that will change, as more powers wil be devolved out of Belfast to each of the Councils - but as the saying goes, Councils in NI currently do little more than 'sweep the streets and bury the dead'. So given that DCC do not have any money to fund this regeneration, as you recommend, what alternative way forward do you suggest ?

Actually, Leisure and Tourism etc is one of the few areas where local Councils in NI do have significant powers and funding. Which is why, for instance, BCC can build a Leisure Centre on the Shankill and another on the Falls, so as to distract these near neighbours from indulging their traditionally-preferred "Leisure Activity" of cutting the tripe out of each other.
http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/leisur...x.asp?menu=all
It also explains why BCC is at last beginning to take seriously the opportunity of helping build a multi-use stadium for NI, at a reported cost of �75million.
And if Derry City Council really has no money left in its kitty for this purpose, after building (albeit in a half-assed kind of a way) an airport for Ryanair, with generous assistance from over the border, why can't they do likewise for DCFC, who like Ryanair, have a foot in both camps?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

And why would a rejhuvenated Brandywell only be a facilioty for the perople of Derry ? We had a Northern Ireland youth game at the stadium earlier this month, as we have done in the past. Why couldn't a rejuvenated Brandywell be a stadium for the whole of the North - regularly hosting other NI games right up to U21/U23 level ? You never know - it might even win the North some new fans for a change.

I didn't actually say it would be "only" for the use of the City, rather "primarily". And of course there would be a benefit for the North West. But DCFC are not the only senior club in the NW. To be quite honest, existing stadia such as Institute and Coleraine could be made suitable for NI youth matches for a hell of a sight less money than DCFC are looking for and there are only so many U-21 games every year. On which point, Mourneview Park - one of the best little club grounds in Ireland - has already established itself as the unofficial "home" of the U-21's. And NI haven't played an U-23 game in ages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Plus - it's a very dangerous road to go down in Northern Ireland to suggest that funding should only be available centrally for anythign that is percieved as a province-wide re-development, and should be done locally (even thought the funds don't exist..) for everything else. Not only does that ignore the blatant funding bias that happens in Council chambers of all colours around the province - but a very strong arguement could also be made to say that any new home for the NI football team that didn't incorporate other sporting codes would only be of use/appeal to 50%+ of the population. So should not receive any central government funding.

Leaving aside the fact that football in NI invites the interest, participation and support of more than "50%" of the population, I fail to see why/how this need be at all "dangerous". The (Direct-Rule) Government felt able to find the mind-boggling sum of �240m to build a new NI Stadium for three codes at the Maze. Imo, this will be a colossal waste of money (if built).
Far better either to build a multi-use stadium for the whole of NI in Belfast, or if that is unacceptable to all three codes, then allocate a fraction of the �240m (say, half?) to the three codes, for each to determine its own "National" requirements. I can't say what football's share should be, but I have no doubt it wold be adequate either to build a new stadium (ideally), or refurbish Windsor (if need be). Rugby and GAA, neither of whom is esp keen on the Maze (if truth be told), could then spend their share as best they see fit.
The remainder saved could then be used for regional sports and leisure development, why, even in Derry!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

This issue is nowhere near as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

The practicalities to be overcome are never "simple". But the Principles are (or should be).
28/04/2008, 5:14 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

If that wasn't the clear implication of mcDaid's comment, why did he say it? Without this grant aid, there is no reason why a lesser sum could not be adequate to bring the Brandywell up to the level, say, of Solitude or Shamrock Park, or even Mournview, after their current renovations, which are being achieved with considerably less public money than DCFC feel entitled to.

Why should DCFC get NI taxpayers money in order to allow them to "keep up with the Jones's" in the Eircom League? Why should they get ROI taxpayers money to redevelop a club in an area outwith Dublin's jurisdiction?

If they want to compete with the Eircom, they should do so on the same terms as the other Eircom clubs i.e. assistance from one Government, one Association.
Otherwise, if they are to be treated as an NI club, then the same conditions should prevail as are applied to other NI clubs. of course, this latter might mean their having to go part-time. And we couldn't have that, could we? :eek:

If Derry can't improve their stadium then there are knock on effects which limit cash flow.
Obviously if Derry have a good stadium they can use it to generate cash to support fulltime football.
The chairman is stating facts, not reasons for gov support.
The reasons for support are given in the submission. Are you aware of the reasons given in Derry's submission?
Shamrock Rovers are being given a ground.
Who cares if Rovers utilise the grounds to its potential, raise enough cash to support fulltime football. No one is going to go to the Dublin Council and complain that it's not the duty of the council to support FT soccer ambitions and give advantage to Rovers.

If Derry can use the ground improvements to their advantage then that is their gain and their opportunity.
28/04/2008, 5:29 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

If Derry can't improve their stadium then there are knock on effects which limit cash flow.
Obviously if Derry have a good stadium they can use it to generate cash to support fulltime football.
The chairman is stating facts, not reasons for gov support.
If Derry can use the ground improvements to their advantage then that is their gain and their opportunity.

I'm not saying there won't be benefits for DCFC, but every other club in NI or ROI could say exactly the same, given that sort of money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

The reasons for support are given in the submission. Are you aware of the reasons given in Derry's submission?

Yes, I am. I just don't think it justifies that level of funding, from those sources, particularly when duplicated (i.e. two Governments and two Associations), in a way not open to other Irish clubs, North or South.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Shamrock Rovers are being given a ground.
Who cares if Rovers utilise the grounds to its potential, raise enough cash to support fulltime football. No one is going to go to the Dublin Council and complain that it's not the duty of the council to support FT soccer ambitions and give advantage to Rovers.

The Shams support my point, not yours, since if Derry City Council were to fund the Brandywell redevelopment etc, I would be genuinely pleased for them.
Further, if the Dublin Government were also to fund SRFC, would you feel happy if then, for some reason, they joined a league in another jurisdiction?
Again, I could have no objection if DCFC were applying to Stormont, but playing in the IL. Of course, I deplore and regret their reasons for joining the Eircom, and understand their reasons for not wanting to rejoin the IL. But they won't, so they should accept the consequences (imo): they're an "Oirish", not a "Norn Iron" club, so should look to the Government in Dublin, and/or the FAI, and/or their local Council for assistance.
28/04/2008, 5:41 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

From Ealing Green's opening post on this thread - a direct quote from McDaid.
If Derry are having trouble sustaining first team football by themselves, I don't think cash handouts are the best way to remedy the situation - in fact, I don't think it is a remedy at all.

And, if this is all about the regeneration project, as the Derry fans keep saying, why is McDaid talking about full-time football at all? How is it connected to the regeneration project to create employment and facilities in the Brandywell area?
.

Obviously your opinion will be affected if your style is to go around believing without question an argument based on a selected quote taken in isolation.
That�s not my style. And just because you can't make the connections in DCFC plans does not mean your argument is supported.

For a start who said DCFC are looking for a cash handout?
Where did you get that idea from?
DCFC present a plan for development and are applying for 2/3 funding.
Do you call that a cash handout? I certainly don�t.

The key point is Not Fit For Purpose

It would be a regeneration for the whole of Brandywell which is a seriously derived area," McDaid added.
Derry chairman feels that his club have "a very strong case".
"Although we play in the League of Ireland, we're a team from Northern Ireland.
"We play in the Setanta Cup which is an All-Ireland competition and we represent the city."
The plan is for the Brandywell to be turned into a 8,000 capacity stadium.
"This money would serve a dual purpose. It would provide a stadium for the football club which is long overdue and also provide a new way forward for the people of the Brandywell," added the Derry official.
"It's far too long since we've had a stadium we could be proud of
"It's been run down for years and is not fit for purpose.
"If we don't get it, it's going to cause serious problems as regards full-time football in the city of Derry."
28/04/2008, 6:06 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I'm not saying there won't be benefits for DCFC, but every other club in NI or ROI could say exactly the same, given that sort of money.
Yes, I am. I just don't think it justifies that level of funding, from those sources, particularly when duplicated (i.e. two Governments and two Associations), in a way not open to other Irish clubs, North or South

As I said before, it looks like the 66% funding is being split between North and South. DCFC are not getting twice the normal dose of funding for such a project. Derry are applying for a normal 66% funding for such a project but split the burden between 2 Governments.
And probably will have a chance of getting half funding.

Quote:

The Shams support my point, not yours, since if Derry City Council were to fund the Brandywell redevelopment etc, I would be genuinely pleased for them.

Well if you want to change the context of my Sham Rovers analogy.

If Derry council wanted to fund the Brandywell you would be happy.
But you would not be happy if the Irish government came in and said to Derry Council,"put away 1/2 of that, we will share the burden for you"..
28/04/2008, 6:18 PM
kingdomkerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I'm not saying there won't be benefits for DCFC, but every other club in NI or ROI could say exactly the same, given that sort of money.

Yes, I am. I just don't think it justifies that level of funding, from those sources, particularly when duplicated (i.e. two Governments and two Associations), in a way not open to other Irish clubs, North or South.

The Shams support my point, not yours, since if Derry City Council were to fund the Brandywell redevelopment etc, I would be genuinely pleased for them.
Further, if the Dublin Government were also to fund SRFC, would you feel happy if then, for some reason, they joined a league in another jurisdiction?
Again, I could have no objection if DCFC were applying to Stormont, but playing in the IL. Of course, I deplore and regret their reasons for joining the Eircom, and understand their reasons for not wanting to rejoin the IL. But they won't, so they should accept the consequences (imo): they're an "Oirish", not a "Norn Iron" club, so should look to the Government in Dublin, and/or the FAI, and/or their local Council for assistance.

Why do you constantly refer to the Irish Government as 'the dublin government.

Is it ignorance or are you just trying to **** people off?
28/04/2008, 6:22 PM
Cosmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by p�l-dcfc

The money Derry and it's supporters spend in the South with our sizeable travelling support contributes to RoI taxes.

So do english supporters, etc in the rugby - should the irish government part fund stadiums over there too? :rolleyes:

Some people are missing the point anyway.

Under the sports capital programme a limited amount will be set aside for EL clubs/ FAI. Despite micls post, the facts are that under teh sports capital programme only those in the 26 counties are eligible - that is fact.

If linfield/ institue got funding from the irish governement it was via a different scheme

Now if derry want to secure funding through the many government north/south schemes/ special funds for north south stuff, fire away and i hope theyre successful. that is why the poll is inaccurate and where people on here are missing the point

However if they want to get funding through money given to the FAI to improve facilities in this country via the sports capital programme, well then thats a big no no from me.

But good luck with the stadium, I hope ye get as much as ye can get going down the UK route - and I hope ye get something from our government through north south schemes - but theres no way you should be allowed secure money through the sports capital programme (even if it is indirectly) at the expense of clubs in the Republic of Ireland who pay their taxes in this country
28/04/2008, 8:06 PM
p�l-dcfc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

So do english supporters, etc in the rugby - should the irish government part fund stadiums over there too? :rolleyes:

As you well know, (and whether you like it or not) special circumstances apply on this island, which makes your initial suggestion absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Some people are missing the point anyway.

Under the sports capital programme a limited amount will be set aside for EL clubs/ FAI. Despite micls post, the facts are that under teh sports capital programme only those in the 26 counties are eligible - that is fact.

If linfield/ institue got funding from the irish governement it was via a different scheme

Now if derry want to secure funding through the many government north/south schemes/ special funds for north south stuff, fire away and i hope theyre successful. that is why the poll is inaccurate and where people on here are missing the point

However if they want to get funding through money given to the FAI to improve facilities in this country via the sports capital programme, well then thats a big no no from me.

But good luck with the stadium, I hope ye get as much as ye can get going down the UK route - and I hope ye get something from our government through north south schemes - but theres no way you should be allowed secure money through the sports capital programme (even if it is indirectly) at the expense of clubs in the Republic of Ireland who pay their taxes in this country

Tell us this then horse, if Sports Capital money was only for 26 county projects, why did DCFC recieve E 85,000 in 2005? http://historical-debates.oireachtas...607060270.html

Through the FAI, as stated in Mr O Donoghue's speech. A precedent has been set by that grant. The law of the Republic is founded on the principles of legislation and precendent. We are entitled to apply for more.

Just because you put something in bold doesn't make it true cosmo. And that is a fact.
28/04/2008, 8:48 PM
sullanefc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

So do english supporters, etc in the rugby - should Under the sports capital programme a limited amount will be set aside for EL clubs/ FAI. Despite micls post, the facts are that under teh sports capital programme only those in the 26 counties are eligible - that is fact.
However if they want to get funding through money given to the FAI to improve facilities in this country via the sports capital programme, well then thats a big no no from me.

and I hope ye get something from our government through north south schemes - but theres no way you should be allowed secure money through the sports capital programme (even if it is indirectly) at the expense of clubs in the Republic of Ireland who pay their taxes in this country

Personally I think if Gaelic teams and players in the north are entitled to grants then so are Derry City.
28/04/2008, 10:00 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

Why do you constantly refer to the Irish Government as 'the dublin government. Is it ignorance or are you just trying to **** people off?

How is it either? It's accurate, understood by everybody, used by many who oppose partition (including SF ministers in the NI Assembly), and unlikely to upset many- any?- other readers.
28/04/2008, 10:19 PM
kingdomkerry

I think it is disrespectful not to call it by its proper title.
28/04/2008, 10:27 PM
holidaysong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

How is it either? It's accurate, understood by everybody, used by many who oppose partition (including SF ministers in the NI Assembly), and unlikely to upset many- any?- other readers.

People in Cork might not like being reminded that the government doesn't sit there.

As for DCFC. I see no problem in them getting funding for the Irish government. We are not all partitionists in Louth.
29/04/2008, 12:40 AM
don ramo

sure why shouldnt they get money, if northern gaa clubs get funding from me then so should derry, any cross border organisation should be entitled to it, sure im funding the belfast docklands also, i hope they get it,

i just call it the pale:)
29/04/2008, 4:35 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

Why do you constantly refer to the Irish Government as 'the dublin government.

Is it ignorance or are you just trying to **** people off?

Why do you constantly rise to the bait? Is it ignorance or are you just trying to **** people off?
29/04/2008, 10:34 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Well if you want to change the context of my Sham Rovers analogy.

If Derry council wanted to fund the Brandywell you would be happy.
But you would not be happy if the Irish government came in and said to Derry Council,"put away 1/2 of that, we will share the burden for you"..

Disingenuous. I have not said that Dublin must not fund DCFC - that is for them to decide. What I am objecting to is DCFC considering they are entitled to two sets of Govt. funding which other teams in Ireland cannot access. Further, I object to DCFC receiving Stormont money (not IFA money) when they do not play in the IL.

Back to your Shams analogy: how would ROI taxpayers feel if they 50% funded SRFC (along with SDCC), Shams built a shiny new stadium and went off and played in a League in another jurisdiction?
29/04/2008, 10:50 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

I think it is disrespectful not to call it by its proper title.

Fine, official titles it is. May I now presume you will in future be referring to "Londonderry" instead of "Derry", "Northern Ireland" instead of "the North" or "Six Counties", "Republic of Ireland" or "ROI" for your international Association Football team, instead of "Ireland", the name of this island's Cricket and Rugby teams etc and which in Association terms may only officially be used by the IFA, when playing against other British Association teams in non-World Cup or European Championship games? :)
29/04/2008, 10:52 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Why do you constantly rise to the bait? Is it ignorance or are you just trying to **** people off?

I was not "baiting" anyone, since no offence was intended by my use of abbreviation.
29/04/2008, 10:56 AM
jebus

Good God but this is one of the bigger messes I've seen in a thread on Foot in quite a while. Anyway my two cents are,

Derry contribute to Derry City's culture and so should be entitled to grants from the Northern Irish government, and they also contribute to the sporting culture on this island, and so should be entitled to grants from the Republic. That's about it as far as I'm concerned, case closed and Columbo can go home
29/04/2008, 11:06 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

Derry contribute to Derry City's culture and so should be entitled to grants from the Northern Irish government, and they also contribute to the sporting culture on this island, and so should be entitled to grants from the Republic. That's about it as far as I'm concerned, case closed and Columbo can go home

"Linfield and Glentoran contribute to Belfast's culture and so should be entitled to grants from the Northern Irish government, and they also contribute to the sporting culture on this island, and so should be entitled to grants from the Republic"

Does Columbo still get the afternoon off? ;)
29/04/2008, 11:12 AM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Disingenuous. I have not said that Dublin must not fund DCFC - that is for them to decide. What I am objecting to is DCFC considering they are entitled to two sets of Govt. funding which other teams in Ireland cannot access. Further, I object to DCFC receiving Stormont money (not IFA money) when they do not play in the IL.
Back to your Shams analogy: how would ROI taxpayers feel if they 50% funded SRFC (along with SDCC), Shams built a shiny new stadium and went off and played in a League in another jurisdiction?

You are spinning analogies out of control. I give you one good analogy to demonstrate one point and you keep trying in vain to use it to prove E=MC2

Now your latest big objection is
"considering they are entitled to two sets of Govt. funding which other teams in Ireland cannot access".

Lets get this idiotic sensationalism out of the way first

We have people in the Republic objecting to funding of a club parked outside the state boundaries.
We have people in NI objecting to the funding of a club playing their football in the LOI and then we have some football fans sneering cynically at the Derry City Club in a "no mans land" position.

Normal application for Construction funding is for 2/3

So Derry City apply for a small portion from the 2 sources
1/3 from the North
1/3 from the South
I think that's a good compromise.

Some dogmatic people don't like compromise, they want to manically cry foul or betrayal.

I would hope the DCFC application is judged on its merits with a rational inspection of the project plans.
29/04/2008, 11:12 AM
kingdom hoop

EG, say you went to a club with a mate but got separated during the course of the night. At the end you stumble singly, a touch forlornly, out on to the street just in time to see your friend get into a taxi with two well-endowed ladies. At this moment would you start running after the taxi yelling, "you're not entitled to them; you're nothing special", or would you halt for a moment and allow a little smirk to cross your face as you admired your friend's gumption? :)
29/04/2008, 11:35 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

What I am objecting to is DCFC considering they are entitled to two sets of Govt. funding which other teams in Ireland cannot access. Further, I object to DCFC receiving Stormont money (not IFA money) when they do not play in the IL.

10 pages later and you still haven't grasped anything anyone has said to you EG...:rolleyes:

1) Derry City are arguably entitled to two sets of funding, unique in comparison to other clubs on the island, because they are in a unique posiiton on the island. The reason why peopke keep mentioning what happened to City in the Irish League isn't to rake up old grievances, as you assert, but to explain to you how we ended-up in such a unique position against out will. But still you don't get it...

2) As a sports club, a community institution and a tax-paying business within Northern Ireland we are operfectly entitled to seek funding from the NI authorities. We woulsn't be entitled to Irish League funding - but we're not looking for that. Again I reiterate - you may not like us seekign Stormnont money, but give me one good reaosn why a sporting body based in the north and paying tax in the north should not be entitled to funding in the north ??

I can see no good reason why 10 pages later you are still wheeling out spurious arguements that have been tackled numerous times since Page 1. This only leads me to conclude that you just fundamentally don't like Derry City getting money from anyone or anything in NI - because we have the temerity to play outside the Irish league, even though we had no choice - and all you are doing is scrabbling around in the dark looking for excuses/reasons to make your position on this appear vaguely reasonable. They don't....
29/04/2008, 11:55 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

You are spinning analogies out of control. I give you one good analogy to demonstrate one point and you keep trying in vain to use it to prove E=MC2

No "spinning" about it. I merely took your exact analogy and applied it in another context, to demonstrate a flaw in it. Namely, would you be happy with a club in the Republic receiving Dublin government funding for a stadium, then moving to play in another jurisdiction? Simple question, really (at least, easier than E=MC2!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Now your latest big objection is
"considering they are entitled to two sets of Govt. funding which other teams in Ireland cannot access".

It is not my "latest" objection. If you read my posts, I have objected since the start to one club in Ireland considering itself eligible for funding from two Governments and two Associations, whilst every other club has to make do with one each. I am concerned for a level playing field - particularly since DCFC's Chairman "let the cat out of the bag" when revealing that a major (chief?) concern is that without double funding, DCFC may not be able to stay f-t professional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Lets get this idiotic sensationalism out of the way first

Indeed, let's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

We have people in the Republic objecting to funding of a club parked outside the state boundaries.

Not me, Gov. Take it up with those who do, if you don't mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

We have people in NI objecting to the funding of a club playing their football in the LOI.

Yep, that's me. I have no objection to DCFC playing in the LOI or receiving Dublin funding on that basis. Or playing in the IL and receiving Stormont funding accordingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

we have some football fans sneering cynically at the Derry City Club in a "no mans land" position.

Sorry, but you've got the wrong man, again. I have stated my sympathy on this thread for DCFC's plight in feeling compelled to play in the LOI, on account of being so badly treated by the IL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Normal application for Construction funding is for 2/3

So Derry City apply for a small portion from the 2 sources
1/3 from the North
1/3 from the South

A ratio of 2/3 to 1/3 seems reasonable to me. Therefore, if DCFC can raise �5m, let Dublin match it with �10m. Or, if Dublin won't do that, let DCFC reapply to join the IL and apply for �10m to Stormont. Whichever way, as a UK taxpayer, I object to IL clubs being deprived of up to �5m for a club which plays outside the UK, when IL clubs cannot benefit correspondingly from Dublin money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

I think that's a good compromise.

The compromise has already been made: i.e. a club located in one juridiction being permitted to play in a League in another jurisdiction. Whilst not unique, this is still very rare and DCFC have always seemed happy enough with it until now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Some dogmatic people don't like compromise, they want to manically cry foul or betrayal.

If you're referring to me as being "dogmatic", I prefer the term "principled". And I have no objection to "compromise", so long as it is fair. I think it is fair to allow DCFC to play in the LOI, but unfair to be eligible for two sets of Govt funding, unlike every other club on the island. And whilst I have called "foul" on this issue (though not "betrayal"), I hardly think I have been "manic". In fact, it is you who appears to be using extravagant and perjorative phraseology which might better be termed "manic".

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

I would hope the DCFC application is judged on its merits with a rational inspection of the project plans.

Agree. But only once we've established the principles by which a rational assessment of the plans might be applied.
And I hope you know by now what I think of the "principles" in this case!
29/04/2008, 11:56 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

EG, say you went to a club with a mate but got separated during the course of the night. At the end you stumble singly, a touch forlornly, out on to the street just in time to see your friend get into a taxi with two well-endowed ladies. At this moment would you start running after the taxi yelling, "you're not entitled to them; you're nothing special", or would you halt for a moment and allow a little smirk to cross your face as you admired your friend's gumption? :)

I wouldn't give a stuff, as long as the cute hoor didn't expect me to pay his taxi fare, as well....:eek:
29/04/2008, 12:02 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

1) Derry City are arguably entitled to two sets of funding, unique in comparison to other clubs on the island, because they are in a unique posiiton on the island. The reason why peopke keep mentioning what happened to City in the Irish League isn't to rake up old grievances, as you assert, but to explain to you how we ended-up in such a unique position against out will.

That's a fair point I think.

You argue that Derry are entitled to two sets of funding because of their unique position in Irish football. I fully agree that their position is unique. You then go on to explain exactly why they are entitled to funding from the Northern Ireland authorities-

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

2) As a sports club, a community institution and a tax-paying business within Northern Ireland we are operfectly entitled to seek funding from the NI authorities. We woulsn't be entitled to Irish League funding - but we're not looking for that. Again I reiterate - you may not like us seekign Stormnont money, but give me one good reaosn why a sporting body based in the north and paying tax in the north should not be entitled to funding in the north ??

I agree with every point you made here, and I've already mentioned them on this thread.

But I'd like you to add a third paragraph, one which outlines with the same clarity why Derry are entitled to money from the ROI government (apart from the kind of funding we've seen given to eL clubs in the past, with which this figure of 5 million is not comparable) for their regeneration project. None of the reasons from paragraph 2 are applicable.

Some Derry fans have mentioned their 'contribution to the sporting culture of the island', and others have, laughably in my opinion, pointed to the money the team and fans spend south of the border. On what basis do you see Derry as being entitled to such funds?
29/04/2008, 12:07 PM
SeanDrog

Quote:

Originally Posted by holidaysong

People in Cork might not like being reminded that the government doesn't sit there.

As for DCFC. I see no problem in them getting funding for the Irish government. We are not all partitionists in Louth.

makes sense putting in 5m now to regenerate the area rather than when we have a united ireland and it will cost us a lot more in the future due to inflation etc

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