Emelka Onwubiko

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Originally Posted by lopez

I've been following Ireland all my life, always had an Irish passport, never had a British passport, and never considered myself British or English. But I've just been called up for the British pie-eating team in the forthcoming World Pie-eating qualifiers. I haven't got enough talent to make the Irish pie-eating team which has been my life-long ambition. But anyway, I'm thinking of saying 'f*ck my principles, I love eating pies (favourite is Steak & Kidney, but am partial to a decent Melton Mowbray). Someone tell me if that isn't as much a move for convenience or career purpose than some of the players that have represented Ireland?
The wackiest claim to an Irish granny I've heard was a Serbian I met in Belgrade before the 1998 game. He was training to be an Serbian Orthodox druid, yet claimed he had an Irish granny. Obviously never heard of Ne Temere. He didn't even know where she was from either. :rolleyes:

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Exactly lopez thats why I have the thing at the end about convenience and doing it for career purposes.

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Originally Posted by lopez

The wackiest claim to an Irish granny I've heard was a Serbian I met in Belgrade before the 1998 game. He was training to be an Serbian Orthodox druid, yet claimed he had an Irish granny. Obviously never heard of Ne Temere. He didn't even know where she was from either. :rolleyes:

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Could he do a job at the back instead of O'Shea ?? ;) :eek:

The problems with assertions of "racism" is that they can be used to stiffle debate and free speech. It's often just as dangerous to claim someone is a racist, in an effort to stiffle debate, as it is for an actual racist to spout their nonsense.

I have no problem with this young man declaring for Ireland. He is an Irish citizen and is thus entitle to make such a declaration. I do, however, have a problem with this being used as an example about how great immigration is or how we're all just one big multi-cultural family. Immigration is a series issue for Ireland with serious ramifications. There are limits on how many people any society can accept (witness America's willingness to shut out the Irish when it suited them) and Ireland is no different.

Don't like players using the Ireland team because they are not good enough for England (Morrison, Nolan). No problem with the likes of Kilbane playing for us.

Why God? Why is JOS Irish? Does he have an English Granny? If so and he is a proud Irishman he should have declared for them instead and stop turning up for our games.

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

I do, however, have a problem with this being used as an example about how great immigration is or how we're all just one big multi-cultural family. Immigration is a series issue for Ireland with serious ramifications. There are limits on how many people any society can accept (witness America's willingness to shut out the Irish when it suited them) and Ireland is no different.

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You have been itching for a debate on immigration. Move it to "current affairs" or to "off topic"

he'll probably turn out to be another Kwame Ampadu so whats the big deal?

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Originally Posted by geysir

You have been itching for a debate on immigration. Move it to "current affairs" or to "off topic"

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Why? This debate has clearly gone in that direction so shouldn't the entire thread be moved?

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Originally Posted by as_i_say

he'll probably turn out to be another Kwame Ampadu so whats the big deal?

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Or another Andy Turner etc.

Or another Paul McGrath etc.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Or another Paul McGrath etc.

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In fairness, McGrath was raised in Ireland by an Irish mother. It's a little different than the likes of Turner.

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

Why? This debate has clearly gone in that direction so shouldn't the entire thread be moved?

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Not quite in that direction, mostly the messages before yours were related to football and the thread. Why not let it be and not go down that direction?

If he's good enough to play for us why not welcome him with open arms because it seems to me by the sounds of it he has the heart.

Once he's not another Morrison!!!

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Originally Posted by geysir

Not quite in that direction, mostly the messages before yours were related to football and the thread. Why not let it be and not go down that direction?

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I'm easy but the thread just struck me as heading towards the immigration topic. Will stick to the footie.

He lived here, went to school here and played football here and now he wants to play for us. No problem there.

I'm more interested in whether he can play ball.
:ball: :)

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Originally Posted by lopez

You sound like you weren't born in 94. Irish born Italians supporting their land of their parents not their birth, not evidence of how some people don't consider their birthplace as relevant to identity? :rolleyes:

What's happened in the last 13 years is that there are more than two, three, possibly four large ethnic minority communities in Ireland. Whether these groups offspring feel Irish will have a lot to do on how the Irish treat them, rather than where their mother's waters broke. The fact that the door to citizenship has been redrawn doesn't exactly help. But hey, I'm sure birthplace will remain the key, not those insignificant things like family, culture, and ethnicity.

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A good man Lopez, I see you're one of those selective copiers, why not paste the whole of my post??? Like I said some might consider themselves Irish some might not. Its certainly not the nailed on certainty you presume it to be, but then you'd have probably noticed that if you'd acknowledged the whole of the post.

And why the rolly eyes and the assumption that I'm a young lad (though what you're point is there is beyond me), does it make you feel a bit more intelligent?

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

A good man Lopez, I see you're one of those selective copiers, why not paste the whole of my post??? ?

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Why would I post comments I don't have issue with. Do you think that by picking a bit of your post, I've misquoted you?

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

Like I said some might consider themselves Irish some might not. Its certainly not the nailed on certainty you presume it to be, but then you'd have probably noticed that if you'd acknowledged the whole of the post.

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The problem I have is with you claiming that a submission of an article isn't 'evidence.' Whatever you think of the quality of journalism of British newspapers, this was a first hand report of Irish born Italians supporting Italy (land of ancestors) against Ireland (land of birth). True: Not every Irish Italian supported Italy (neither the report nor would I suggest such a thing) but then not every Irish Italian supported Ireland which seems to be a general consensus of a few on this thread that a. Irish born abraod - you support/play for Ireland for purely mercenary reasons. b. live in Ireland for a minimum of four years (no need to be even born here), you're as Irish as a whiskey guzzling leprechaun.

To recap, let's see what you said. For the benefit of your sensitivities, I've included all of it, but will highlight the bit I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

Which is why I said 'some might'. And regardless of a referendum I said people born and raised in this country will likely consider themselves Irish and rightly so and as such can represent our national side without feeling like a foreigner, they certainly have as much right to do so as someone who had a granny from Mayo.

So no its not evidence and its less valued when you consider its 13 years old and that since 94 the country has changed beyond belief.

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The second bit (evidence), first: It's an example that the children of immigrants will not always support their (new) country of birth, so don't be so naive as to think they do. And, you're right. The country has changed since 1994. Being born here no longer guarantees you Irish citizenship.

As for the first bit - 'people born and raised in this country will likely consider themselves Irish and rightly so' - says who? Says you? Have you got anything to back it up with, like a straw poll. As someone owing an 'allegiance' to a country that isn't where I was born, I know that this sweeping, and let's face it rather patronising, statement is a bogus crock of sh*te.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

And why the rolly eyes and the assumption that I'm a young lad (though what you're point is there is beyond me), does it make you feel a bit more intelligent?

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I really have no answer to this, apart from your naivity over matters of identity amongst 2nd generation immigrants. Perhaps the fact you took a week to respond to my slight says it all for me. :p

why dont you just open your own "2G Immigrintz Forum"
whether its anything from a youth international to the tour de france its all you ever talk about.:rolleyes:

Like I said some might consider themselves Irish some might not. Its certainly not the nailed on certainty you presume it to be,

I'm just going to have to post that again Lopez, its not a black and white issue despite what you think, in fact the subject of the post should tell you that. And a newspaper article thats 13 years old is not irrefutable evidence, especially not in a country thats undergone the ethnic changes that this one has. Do all those kids born in the USA, Australia, the UK etc consider themselves Irish do you think? Or is it possible that some do and some don't? In fact I know its not so clear cut from meeting these people, but I was never of the opinion that these kids would ALWYS choose to be Irish over their cultural background or vice versa. I probably shouldn't have used the 'will likely' and instead should have used 'could possibly', you can have that one. But if someone born and raised here would like to consider themselves Irish then they will, despite the results of a referendum because we definetly won't be deporting these people born on this soil of foreign parents in 20 years time. And I'd imagine if they want to play football for us and they're pretty handy we'll be finding away around it too.

I'm very sorry I didn't realise there was a clock ticking on replies, I'll have to be more careful won't I! You do like a smiley don't you fella.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

Like I said some might consider themselves Irish some might not. Its certainly not the nailed on certainty you presume it to be, [/I]


I'm just going to have to post that again Lopez, its not a black and white issue despite what you think, in fact the subject of the post should tell you that. And a newspaper article thats 13 years old is not irrefutable evidence, especially not in a country thats undergone the ethnic changes that this one has. Do all those kids born in the USA, Australia, the UK etc consider themselves Irish do you think? Or is it possible that some do and some don't? In fact I know its not so clear cut from meeting these people, but I was never of the opinion that these kids would ALWYS choose to be Irish over their cultural background or vice versa...

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I know you don't like any of your post to be left out so I've wasted more space on this thread to please you. However, I'd like to know where did I say (presumably) ALWAYS, to all people of foreign parents ALWAYS choosing their parents country over that of their birth?:confused: I thought I used the word 'may' in response to the some generalisation that everyone with an Irish accent is Irish.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

...I probably shouldn't have used the 'will likely' and instead should have used 'could possibly', you can have that one...

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Yes you shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

...But if someone born and raised here would like to consider themselves Irish then they will, despite the results of a referendum because we definetly won't be deporting these people born on this soil of foreign parents in 20 years time. And I'd imagine if they want to play football for us and they're pretty handy we'll be finding away around it too...

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I hope you're right, but I could imagine the same optimism one hundred years ago in Germany over the future of Jews there. Anyway, enough of the pessimism.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

...I'm very sorry I didn't realise there was a clock ticking on replies, I'll have to be more careful won't I! You do like a smiley don't you fella.

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You do that. And yes I do like a smiley. :rolleyes: . I'd like a few more included, especially one that appears to be shaking some coffee. ;)

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

why dont you just open your own "2G Immigrintz Forum"
whether its anything from a youth international to the tour de france its all you ever talk about.

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Got something you'd like to get off your chest Bill?

yeah...try talking about football on a football forum....

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

yeah...try talking about football on a football forum....

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You mean like 'Anyone Watching heroes on Sci/fi -Channel 6' or 'Super Bowl Half Time Show (Prince)' or - Oh, I really love this one - 'Help on a Crimbo Pressie please'. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (Yes I like my smileys, Nailer) :rolleyes:

If you need to post about me going on about the 2G then at least get off your a*se and find a thread that I did talk about it on (Tour de France I think you'll find I got banned for something not concerning the platic paddies)

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

[I]....especially not in a country thats undergone the ethnic changes that this one has. .

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You obviously think thats something to celebrate, I and many others don't think so....

There is an under 14 side playing in the DDSL where all of the players are non Irish born. All of them consider themselves both Irish and of their native country. Some are here as refugees, some as economic migrants and no doubt some may return to their country of birth while others cannot psossibly ever do so.

However, it was interesting speaking with them that they all considered themselves, at this point in their young lives, as Irish.

I posed the question that if it came to it which country would they play for and to a man it was Ireland first provided they were still living here and their country of birth only if they ever returned. Interestingly half of them have now Irish citizenship and others while born in the now enlarged EU would take out Irish citizenship if possible.

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Originally Posted by lopez

You mean like 'Anyone Watching heroes on Sci/fi -Channel 6' or 'Super Bowl Half Time Show (Prince)' or - Oh, I really love this one - 'Help on a Crimbo Pressie please'. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (Yes I like my smileys, Nailer) :rolleyes:

If you need to post about me going on about the 2G then at least get off your a*se and find a thread that I did talk about it on (Tour de France I think you'll find I got banned for something not concerning the platic paddies)

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but they are all in off topic.....for a reason...whats wrong with that?
(altho dont remember putting anything in the xmas pressie one.)
There is a current affairs forum for a reason as well.
the tour de france one was the finest example ever of someone pushing their own agenda into a thread regardless of wheter it was relevant or not.

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Originally Posted by soccerc

However, it was interesting speaking with them that they all considered themselves, at this point in their young lives, as Irish.

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It appears that Emelka is no different
from http://www.unison.ie/fingal_independ...issue_id=13209
"I'm improving a lot, I wasn’t much good at the start but I’ve improved my talent, every time you play for your country it gives you confidence"

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

but they are all in off topic.....for a reason...whats wrong with that?

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Sorry, but to quote you, you said 'try talking about football on a football forum', if you said 'thread' it would have been more clearer. Basically, if people stick to talking about the footballing qualities of Mr. Onwubiko, that's fine. People start talking sh*te about emmigrants and their offspring, then I'm going to set the record straight. If that p*sses you off, then all I can do is have a big laugh at your expense, because you're not the one that's going to send me packing.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

(altho dont remember putting anything in the xmas pressie one.)

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Now why doesn't surprise me? :rolleyes: I thought I'd press the find your posts button to see what stuff you discuss on this forum not concerning football, and there was you on a thread asking about Christmas presents.:confused:

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

...the tour de france one was the finest example ever of someone pushing their own agenda into a thread regardless of wheter it was relevant or not.

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Wow! You should change your name to 'Billsb*llocks'. :D I had two posts on that thread, the first which was in response to Dodge suggesting that an American rider (initially first at the Tour) was less likely to cheat than a Spanish one (second). I'm interested to hear what exactly Bill's b*llocks, sorry, thoughts are on my agenda there?
However, you're right about one thing though. I do have an 'agenda'. That is to do the job that your teachers at school should have done. Teach you the full story of your country's history.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Sorry, but to quote you, you said 'try talking about football on a football forum', if you said 'thread' it would have been more clearer. Basically, if people stick to talking about the footballing qualities of Mr. Onwubiko, that's fine. People start talking sh*te about emmigrants and their offspring, then I'm going to set the record straight. If that p*sses you off, then all I can do is have a big laugh at your expense, because you're not the one that's going to send me packing.

Now why doesn't surprise me? :rolleyes: I thought I'd press the find your posts button to see what stuff you discuss on this forum not concerning football, and there was you on a thread asking about Christmas presents.:confused:
Wow! You should change your name to 'Billsb*llocks'. :D I had two posts on that thread, the first which was in response to Dodge suggesting that an American rider (initially first at the Tour) was less likely to cheat than a Spanish one (second). I'm interested to hear what exactly Bill's b*llocks, sorry, thoughts are on my agenda there?
However, you're right about one thing though. I do have an 'agenda'. That is to do the job that your teachers at school should have done. Teach you the full story of your country's history.

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"I thought I'd press the find your posts button to see what stuff you discuss on this forum not concerning football, and there was you on a thread asking about Christmas presents."

Why would you bother doing that?

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Originally Posted by Seano

"I thought I'd press the find your posts button to see what stuff you discuss on this forum not concerning football, and there was you on a thread asking about Christmas presents."

Why would you bother doing that?

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Who you asking? If me, to see if he practices what he preaches. If him, I dunno if he was aksing for advice or giving it (to another poster), as I just looked at the 'non-football' threads, not their content. Whoever it was obviously never heard of an Argos catalogue. :)

lets get this thread moved to current affairs so-it is a topic people like to argue and debate over but it has been done to death on the ireland forum so mods maybe switch it and let the debate go on...

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Originally Posted by as_i_say

lets get this thread moved to current affairs so-it is a topic people like to argue and debate over but it has been done to death on the ireland forum so mods maybe switch it and let the debate go on...

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There are two aspects of the debate. Should someone born outside Ireland (usually non-white) be able get Irish citizenship or should only those of at least one Irish (i.e. homogenous Irish) be allowed it. The other is should one over the other above (or both IMO) be allowed to play football for Ireland. One's an off topic/current affairs topic, the other is a football one.

Both unfortunately overlap each other because of the history of Ireland since the 1830s at least. Best of luck in seperating the two.

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Originally Posted by geysir

It appears that Emelka is no different
from http://www.unison.ie/fingal_independ...issue_id=13209
"I'm improving a lot, I wasn’t much good at the start but I’ve improved my talent, every time you play for your country it gives you confidence"

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another story about Emelka: http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13587
His first name is spelled "Emeka", and the thread title (and several linked stories) have it as "Emelka" - can anyone confirm the correct spelling?

His name is spelled EMEKA here in Metro Eireann in this article
http://www.metroeireann.com/dynamic/...ryid=23&page=0

See I knew you like your stats and correct too.

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Originally Posted by lopez

However, you're right about one thing though. I do have an 'agenda'. That is to do the job that your teachers at school should have done. Teach you the full story of your country's history.

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Wow obviously touched a nerve given the tone of your reply.....
Im grand on the history front altho where I ever mentioned it is another thing altogether.....
I do however live in Ireland so I dont really need to look at history book to know what is going on here.
I think the point about the football forum is still valid no matter how you cling to your little pedantry.....

Oh and heres my xmas present thread.......very agenda driven....god forbid I would try and help someone out...
http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=588309#post588309

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Originally Posted by lopez

I know you don't like any of your post to be left out so I've wasted more space on this thread to please you. However, I'd like to know where did I say (presumably) ALWAYS, to all people of foreign parents ALWAYS choosing their parents country over that of their birth?:confused: I thought I used the word 'may' in response to the some generalisation that everyone with an Irish accent is Irish.

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And likewise neither did I! 'will likely' is hardly definitive now is it? You're being a little pedantic there lad.

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Originally Posted by lopez

I hope you're right, but I could imagine the same optimism one hundred years ago in Germany over the future of Jews there. Anyway, enough of the pessimism.

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Jesus, nothing like a bit of hyperbole is there? Maybe a more realistic, reasonable and not no nonsensical example would have been the players of colonial heritage playing for Holland/England/France/Portugal etc
As far as I'm aware we haven't launched a genocide against any of our immigrants just yet! Maybe you're getting ahead of yourself a little lopez but jeez you might be right maybe they wouldn't want to play for us in those circumstances and I don't think I'd blame them. Still I suppose I'll leave you with that little hope.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

And likewise neither did I! 'will likely' is hardly definitive now is it? You're being a little pedantic there lad.

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You making this up? I can't find me saying 'will likely' anywhere (which isn't the same as 'always')

I said that 'I believe' what happens at home will 'always outbid' the state. If parents instill in their kids a refusal to see their new country as their own - undermined anyway in all EU countries by a universal jus sanguinis method of citizenship - then 'I believe' that will be the dominant factor. You on the other hand seem to think that family is irrelevent and that the kids will regard themselves as Irish regardless.

Ireland's challenge is to make immigrant parents want their children to at least see themselves as partially Irish. Good signs from certain areas. Examples: No colonial past; racism not as bad as France and Britain when they first had mass immigration; and the case in 1998 of Irish neighbours sticking up for an African family harrassed by the Garda. I do hope 1998 isn't too far back for you, though.

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Originally Posted by Nailer77

...Jesus, nothing like a bit of hyperbole is there? Maybe a more realistic, reasonable and not no nonsensical example would have been the players of colonial heritage playing for Holland/England/France/Portugal etc...

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The holocaust as hyperbole. Rarely see that outside **********.org these days.:rolleyes:

Ah the 'multicutural dreamers' answer to those nasty racists. A football team. Well, like Bill, you obviously think that the world revolves around a leather ball, but I'd point to the riots in France last year and Dutch islamophobia as more significant of the future. As for England, I'll be here for hours. Nice to see you keeping abreast of current affairs, though.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

...I do however live in Ireland so I dont really need to look at history book to know what is going on here...

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Silly me. I forgot. We have an immigration problem at the moment not an emigration problem. :rolleyes: A statement like is proof - not that I needed some - of your ignorance.

Ahh, call it what you like Bill - 'touching a nerve' 'chip on your shoulder' etc. - point is you don't like it, you too should form your own forum where - just like history lessons in the free state education system - the E word is banned.

Nice to see you remembered your crimbo post - was it about football? I'm more interested in my agenda on the Tour de France. If Bill has any thoughts, could he post them on the tour thread rather than here.

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Originally Posted by lopez

You making this up? I can't find me saying 'will likely' anywhere (which isn't the same as 'always')

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You may read that again pal, it was a reference to what I'd said not you.

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Originally Posted by lopez

I said that 'I believe' what happens at home will 'always outbid' the state. If parents instill in their kids a refusal to see their new country as their own - undermined anyway in all EU countries by a universal jus sanguinis method of citizenship - then 'I believe' that will be the dominant factor. You on the other hand seem to think that family is irrelevent and that the kids will regard themselves as Irish regardless.

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Far from it! Why would I think family is irrelevant? Again your putting words in my mouth. And your 'always outbid the state' comment is about as final as my 'will likely' comment which I had the good grace to retract and admit that something less definite would have been more prudent. So again as I've said its a case that some might, some might not. But I'll give you an example :

Say a kid of Rwandan/Nigerian/Congolese/Albanian etc extraction is born and living here. They go to school here, they play football locally. Then they get picked up by a professional outfit. They play football at quite a high level, they get recognised by our national team scouts. They're asked to represent us. Do you think they'll just turn us down flat out? Or might they consider it given the bonuses that come with being an international footballer and given that they were born and raised here they might, just might, consider themselves Irish and not even have to think about it. If you can't see that that may be a possiblilty then you've a pretty limited black and white view of the world and discussing this any further with you is pointless.

Or a nice and recent example, Australia v Croatia in the WC. The Croats had an Aussie born player lining out for them and vice versa. Hardly conclusive but its a pretty relevant example.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Ireland's challenge is to make immigrant parents want their children to at least see themselves as partially Irish. Good signs from certain areas. Examples: No colonial past; racism not as bad as France and Britain when they first had mass immigration; and the case in 1998 of Irish neighbours sticking up for an African family harrassed by the Garda. I do hope 1998 isn't too far back for you, though.

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I agree and no 1998 will do as an example. Again hardly irrefutable evidence

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Originally Posted by lopez

The holocaust as hyperbole. Rarely see that outside **********.org these days.:rolleyes: )

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Did I say the holocaust was hyperbole??? Really?? Again read it properly (you seem to be having a bit of difficulty in that department). They're some pretty twisted words to be trying to out in my mouth lopez.
I said it was blantant hyperbole of you to choose that as an example when there were far more moderate examples in the French/English/Portuguese/ nationals sides. Doesn't do much good to your extreme arguement though, but it might be an idea to leave muck like that out of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Ah the 'multicutural dreamers' answer to those nasty racists. A football team. Well, like Bill, you obviously think that the world revolves around a leather ball, but I'd point to the riots in France last year and Dutch islamophobia as more significant of the future. As for England, I'll be here for hours. Nice to see you keeping abreast of current affairs, though.
Silly me. I forgot. We have an immigration problem at the moment not an emigration problem. :rolleyes: A statement like is proof - not that I needed some - of your ignorance.

Ahh, call it what you like Bill - 'touching a nerve' 'chip on your shoulder' etc. - point is you don't like it, you too should form your own forum where - just like history lessons in the free state education system - the E word is banned.

Nice to see you remembered your crimbo post - was it about football? I'm more interested in my agenda on the Tour de France. If Bill has any thoughts, could he post them on the tour thread rather than here.

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And finally no I don't think I multcultural team is the answer to the racists, I don't recall saying anything of the like. Its you that seems to want to bring the politics of immigration into it. All I'm saying is that I've no problem with POSSIBLE future citizens of this country representing our national side regardless of their ethnic extraction.

It would appear its a problem for you though or is it? It'd help if you'd clear that up one way or the other.

mods, seriously. i see a distant light, it may be the topic - so that would make where we are, far from the topic. sort it out, if lopez, billsramblings want to argue about race, holocaust denial and nationalities in the 21st century, let them do it on their own time.

my two cents... i moved here to Canada last year with my canadian fiancee. Her surname is Brcic and, probably obviously, she comes from a Croatian family. Both her parents left Croatia in the 70's and settled here with their eldest daughter who was aged 6/7 at the time. They had 3 more daughters while living here. The eldest is 40 and the youngest is 25.

All four of them consider themselves both Croatian and Canadian. They all speak Croatian pretty much fluently. The only boys in the family are their cousins who live in B.C. and they are fiercely Croatian, extremely nationalist. They insist that their future kids would play sawker for Croatia and not Canada. Ive mentioned to herself that if i have kids born here, theyll play for Ireland - not Croatia and deffo not Canada. Shes not concerned. Nice wan. :D

But i guess the point i am making is that the desire (or otherwise) of the next African-Irish generation and the generation after to play for Ireland will have alot to do with their parents and how their parents feel about Ireland and their experience integrating with Irish people and Irish culture and of course Irish people accepting certain aspects of African culture.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

mods, seriously. i see a distant light, it may be the topic - so that would make where we are, far from the topic. sort it out, if lopez, billsramblings want to argue about race, holocaust denial and nationalities in the 21st century, let them do it on their own time.

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oh how I laughed......
but fair point....will just delete previous one....