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We're seeing this more and more now. Ask a classroom of kids who they support, and there'll be the usual Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Celtic but I'll bet there's at least one who claims to be a Barcelona, Real Madrid, or AC Milan fan as well. And we didn't have that 10 years ago when I was starting secondary school.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishultra
there's no way that would that be more appealing, not to any club i don't think.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
i've never gone along with the view of playing it safe in a lower league just for wins. a football team should always strive to be at as high a level as they possibly can be. how many teams in the loi or il will never win it? there are plenty without any chance, yet they still plug away and try. if you aren't in, you can't win.
pretty much any team going into a top league would benefit with larger crowds and, if they are sensible, their added income from gates, sponsorship and league money should cover their added wage outgoings.
i should also point out that while larne were in the top league both glenavon and crusaders were relegated and c'ville narrowly escaped relegation through a playoff.
see? picking teams for leagues isn't as clearcut and easy as it seems.
Fair play to you, but I doubt you're representative of the main body of support. Do you live in Belfast?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
As far as I know, major Ulster-based games in GAA take place in Monaghan. Cricket? They play in Belfast and Dublin, but I think rugby is a much better comparison, given that very few people go to cricket, bar the times e.g. Australia visit. Rugby? I think Ravenhill is perfect for the smaller games, but the decision by the IRFU to treat Belfast as an away venue sends out a very strong message.Quote:
Though part of the problem with the rugby in Beal-feirste, is the inevitable issues with flag and anthem, not to mention the stadium!
Though you don't find may Irish people complaining about Stormont (apart from the weather!) for a UI cricket team or people from greater Ulster going to Casement for GAA Finals !
Yip, we're both hamstrung by a bunch of ****wits at the FAs. I think though thankfully we're sticking with Windsor, rather than going with an out-of-town stadium. A few pints in south Belfast and a stroll down the hill to the ground is hard to beat ,even if the ground is a bit of a dump.:)Quote:
After all, as many Nordie fans keep parroting the FAI broke away from the IFA. And we'd mainly agree, at best are both full of well-meaning incompetents. So you'd better get on and build the Pairce de Maze or whatever..... ;)
Come on now - be serious!Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Do you really expect the Irish rugby team to stand for 'God Save the Queen.'
but its ok to ask players from northern ireland to stand for the solider's song under a tricolour? our players have the decency to do it when a game is in dublin, but it can't be expected to return the gesture when the game is in belfast?
can't you see the irony of that? and here i was thinking the irish rugby team represented EVERYONE on the island........only when it suits, only when it suits........
You are applying the insular 'logic' of Northern Ireland, to the island as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
If Northern Ireland had it's own distinct anthem, then that should be played before Ireland's Call. The idea that the UK national anthem should be played for an Irish team - in any sport, is ridiculous. It would be completely farcical for the Irish rugby team to stand for GSTQ - the anthem of the English rugby team.
Even people in Britain would find it hilarious, and just a little strange!
so it's fine to play the soldier's song when an international rugby game is played in dublin as a courtesy to the host, yet not ok to play god save the queen as a courtesy to the host when an international rugby game is played in belfast?
wow, the hypocrisy in that is palpable. can you genuinely not see how one sided that is for what is supposed to be for all?
lamb, again you are applying an insular 'Northern Ireland' viewpoint to the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
The Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland, are both, obviously, within the jurisdiction of the IRFU.
The tricolour and the Soldier's Song are representative of the Republic of Ireland as a whole and are not in the least bit contentious. The Ulster Banner and God Save the Queen are not representative of the 'Northern Irish' population (or as you put it - 'the host') and are most certainly contentious.
Leaving the above aside, neither have any official status in Northern Ireland. In other words, 'the host' has no flag or anthem.
My view is clear and simple, if Northern Ireland had it's own distinct flag and anthem, they should be respectively flown and played.
For better or worse GSTQ is the anthem of NI. I don't like it but there it is. You can't pick and choose according to your prejudice. Well, I say that, but the IRFU clearly do.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
The SS not contentious? All national anthems are contentious and although players from NI don't make anything of it, don't you think they'd like a level playing field when it comes to these old fashioned symbols? By the way, we've more than a few NI supporters fron Donegal who have very real issues with the anthems. OK they're not huge amounts of people, but then there are very few of that type of person left in the RoI.
God Save the Queen is not the anthem of Northern Ireland. It has no official status. The political jurisdiction or 'state' of Northern Ireland has no official flag or anthem.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
The IFA may use it to represent the Northern Ireland international football side, but don't confuse that with thinking that it represents Northern Ireland as an entity!
On your second point, (highlighted in bold), the Soldier's Song is not contentious in the Republic of Ireland, which is what I was inferring in my post. Apologies if you didn't understand.
I'd rather never see an All-Ireland team than give up my national anthem in the place of a P.C. abomination like 'Ireland's Call'. Although i agree with the concept of a one-island team 'Ireland' i feel that we would have to concede too much ground to insular Nordie demands. The Ireland national football team should represent those that are proud to call themselves Irish and not those who would rather be anything but. And just to add, the appropriation of the concept of 'Ulster' by the Unionist population seriously pi$$es me off(granted it has been going on for over a century). Ulster is the historical mecca of Irishness and Celticness. To suggest that it is somehow a symbol or creation of the Unionist psyche is ridiculous. Anyway leave the Nordies to themselves and get behind the true Irish team. I'd prefer to forsake the talents of Pat Mc Court and Jonny Evans if it means not compromising the core ideals of my national team.
[QUOTE=The Fly;1279927]Ah, that old chestnut. There are many things in the UK that are not in the (very disparate) constitution and therefore not official. By convention, GSTQ is the anthem of NI and also the UK. The IRFU should respect local convention. By the way, I think the decision by the IRFU has little to do with questions about official status; it's closer to your previous post about expecting players from the RoI to stand for GSTQ.Quote:
God Save the Queen is not the anthem of Northern Ireland. It has no official status. The political jurisdiction or 'state' of Northern Ireland has no official flag or anthem.
The IFA may use it to represent the Northern Ireland international football side, but don't confuse that with thinking that it represents Northern Ireland as an entity!
No need to apologise, I got your point. I was merely pointing out that the anthem issue is contentious to some of your fellow countrymen and women. We've quite a few of them posting on OWC;).Quote:
On your second point, (highlighted in bold), the Soldier's Song is not contentious in the Republic of Ireland, which is what I was inferring in my post. Apologies if you didn't understand.
May I ask what Irishness and Celticness are?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
Although it would make a great (and lengthy) discussion, I'd prefer not to get into a major sociological/historical debate at four in the morning ;). But i believe that the Ulster cycle is the archetypal mainstay of historical Celtic culture that the majority of Irish people today would claim allegience to and identification with. The suggestion that the concept of Ulster is representative of the portion of the population that would describe themselves as being anything but Irish is farcical imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
nonsense. it's plain logic, not insular or biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
facts are facts, when the ireland rugby team play in dublin the hosts are treated to different protocols than when the ireland rugby team play in belfast. i can't see any particularly valid reason why that should be the case since the rugby team is SUPPOSED to equally represent both the republic of ireland and northern ireland, yet there seems to be conditions put on this equal representation....
.....only when it suits.
Hardly a convention, certainly not nowadays anyway. The fact remains that is not the official anthem of Northern Ireland, nor is it representative of it. I live in Northern Ireland and am very contented that the IRFU do not respect the local 'convention' you speak of. Once again, if NI had it's own official/cross-community anthem that should be played.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Those posters on OWC, of which I am one, I'd say are simply sensitive to a somewhat delicate situation, like myself. Most may also live in Northern Ireland JohnB. (and be fairly enlightened)Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
For the record - I have always had much sympathy for players and supporters from Northern Ireland at Irish rugby matches
lamb - once again, Northern Ireland or 'the host' has no official anthem or flag, the Republic of Ireland does. Once again - GSTQ has no official status and besides that, is not representative of Northern Ireland as a 'state' or entity. When 'the host'(NI) has an official, cross community anthem, that should and would be played.Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
actually a 2008 survey states that 42% or protestants primarily called themselves some form of either northern irish, ulster or irish (57% british), whereas 34% of catholics called themselves primarily northern irish, british or ulster (61% irish). there's a lot of middle ground in there, though i understand your annoyance about using the term "ulster".Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
ps. to the fly. i agree with you that northern ireland should have it's own anthem (and properly official flag for that matter), but the fact is it doesn't (and highly unlikely to for many years, considering those clowns in stormont). the only one that covers it is right now also happens to cover the rest of the uk, gstq, and the only flag that covers it is the union flag, so by default logic and simple courtesy gstq should have been played and the union flag flown.
I know it doesn't - I have already stated that many times. We will have to wait until it does. Hopefully sooner rather than later!Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
GSTQ doesn't 'cover it right now.' Please explain to me in what way it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
The IFA may use it right now and will probably continue to for some time.........but that's it. The only reason it is used to represent the Northern Ireland football side is because the IFA chooses to use it.
well, it does, being the national anthem for the uk it also covers northern ireland.
That's a tenuous argument lamb. By extension then, the Scot's and Welsh should also use it, whether that be before or after their own distinct anthems - I'm not sure. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
To continue this tenuous vein - the IRFU does not cover the UK.
For the record, if the IRFU decided not to play the Irish national anthem, I wouldn't have huge problem with that.
(well - maybe just a niggle) ;)
Good. Not sure what you're getting so agitated about, one unlistenable dirge about fighting with your neighbors is much like another?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
You don't have to concede anything; if you want to get on that high horse, all we're asking is parity of esteem; what else would an all-island team be but 'insular' ;)Quote:
i feel that we would have to concede too much ground to insular Nordie demands
Don't be a dick. We're just as Irish as you, Gibson, Kilbane or McGeady.Quote:
The Ireland national football team should represent those that are proud to call themselves Irish and not those who would rather be anything but
Why not ignore it if it upsets you so much?Quote:
And just to add, the appropriation of the concept of 'Ulster' by the Unionist population seriously pi$$es me off
Don't be so insular and illogical.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
God save the old German wan is the anthem of the whole 'Ugly K';even England have taken to using 'Jerusalem', whilst Scotland and Wales have a lot more credibility in that department!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
For a 'nation' that can't choose its own anthem, what's wrong with 'Danny Boy', or if it's for an Irish rugby match at Ravenhill, 'A Nation Once Again', complete with Four Provinces flag ?? ;)
Then everyone's happy....
Hmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Don't think the DUP, IKP & vast majority of unionist voters would agree with you....
Though bizarrely they seem more receptive to the idea of AI rugby & cricket teams. Now If they'd just do the soccer.... ;)
IRISH Fooball Association might be a clue.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I've no intention of ever denouncing my Irishness, as part of my overall identity - I refuse to concede to the myopic viewpoint of "Irishness" espoused by some.
The rugby and cricket was always one side.
Football is different - there was a split.
Maybe for you, but the majority of unionist voters don't feel this way.....they're very quick to espouse 'Britishness'. And don't seem to be in the mood to be contradicted! :rolleyes:
Have you asked them?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Plenty of them that I know, consider themselves both British and irish i.e. Northern Irish.
Don't be so insular and illogical.[/QU
[QUOTE=Gather round;1279985]Good. Not sure what you're getting so agitated about, one unlistenable dirge about fighting with your neighbors is much like another?[QUOTE]
A matter of opinion Gather. I'd prefer to call it a rousing celebration of Irish unity, a yearning for freedom and a defiance against the centuries-long oppression and dictation of one of the world's oldest nations. Now if you want 'dirge' about fighting as you call it, have a listen to La Marseillaise, widely considered to be the world's most stirring and patriotic national anthem. Ámhrán na bhFiann pales in comparison in terms of violence.
You don't have to concede anything; if you want to get on that high horse, all we're asking is parity of esteem; what else would an all-island team be but 'insular' ;) [QUOTE]
Okay thats a way of looking at it.:o
Don't be a dick. We're just as Irish as you, Gibson, Kilbane or McGeady.[QUOTE]
Missing the point here Gather. If you're proud to call yourself Irish then the Irish national team is representative of you. And i doubt the trio you refer to would consider themselves anything but Irish. Kilbane in particular. Btw, hold off on the name-calling.
Why not ignore it if it upsets you so much?[QUOTE]
Find it a little difficult to ignore when Ulster rightly should epitomise the ancient celtic values and traditions that most Irish people identify with. Ulster is the birthplace of a mythology and ancient literature that is arguably only second to that of ancient Greece and to see it being used to actually separate those who would vehemently choose not to refer to themselves as Irish is a little grating to say the least.
No, but they've told me! Which was 'nice'.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
You can be British or Irish, but not both! No rational person, unless they're from a mixed heritage, would be claiming multiple nationalities??
That's one thing, Gerry, Ian, Peter & Martin would all agree on. Not to mention the vast majority of the population there. Or elsewhere.
.
Oh no..you've opened the floodgates!!!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
All of them? fair enoughQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Being Northern Irish and British are in no way contradictory, they are from Northern Ireland and are proud of their British heritage, which is their right.
'Irishness' is not simply the Gaeilge speaking, Gaa playing stereotype that some people like to claim.
Look at who Unionists vote for.
And their political ethos of what they stand for.
Just let's say there 'ain't' too many mentions of 'Irishness', apart from the recognition that they live there.
If you can find any, answers on the back of a postage stamp are welcome.
;)
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
Totally inaccurate - but no point going there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Nail on the head - you talk sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
OK, look forward to a cogent unionist political declaration of their 'Irishness'.......:rolleyes:
You can't deny something which doesn't, er, exist!
No, I'm not a big fan of tuneless, bellicose national anthems period. I'm not really interested in whether one's arguably more violent than another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
No, I understand your point perfectly well. It simply ignores reality: there are two international football teams from Ireland. As a proud Irishman, I support only one, the other isn't representative of me.Quote:
Missing the point here Gather. If you're proud to call yourself Irish then the Irish national team is representative of you. And i doubt the trio you refer to would consider themselves anything but Irish. Kilbane in particular
And no need to be defensive- I'm not suggesting anyone isn't properly Irish. But you are.
My apologies. Replace with "don't be a sh*t stirring wind-up".Quote:
Btw, hold off on the name-calling
As someone from there I'll choose what I identify with and want my home country to epitomise, thanks.Quote:
Ulster rightly should epitomise the ancient celtic values and traditions that most Irish people identify with
Look, if you think ancient Ulster is comparable to the civilizations of Sumer, the Egyptian Pharaohs and Classical Antiquity that's fine- if a tad eccentric or dare I say it insular. But do stop claiming that your fellow islanders aren't Irish. It's repetitive, mildly offensive and ultimately infantile.Quote:
Ulster is the birthplace of a mythology and ancient literature that is arguably only second to that of ancient Greece and to see it being used to actually separate those who would vehemently choose not to refer to themselves as Irish is a little grating
It may happen (an all Island team) sometime but i would say its at least 10 years away.
But for the developement of football on the Island we certainly need an all-Ireland league.
Two of the biggest clubs on the Island are Linfield and Glentoran and one of the things holding them back is some serious competition.
The new Derry club would certainly benefit from competing against them and 3/4 clubs from Dublin, 1 from Cork, Limerick ?, Galway ?, Waterford ?, Sligo ? and what about a revived Belfast Celtic or Cliftonville.
The status quo is certainly not working North or South.
It is certainly worth giving an all-Ireland league a go and its just a pity some TV broadcaster does not put money into developing an All-Ireland league.
If it were stuck at for 5/8 years then perhaps 1/2 of the Clubs could get to the group stages of the champions league and the investors could get payback for their investment.
Its a bit of a long shot in these economic times though I am sorry to say.
Okay, fair enough. But let me ask you (and i'm not trying to wind you up), lets say that an All-Ireland team came into existence. What would your opinion be on the issue ofQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
1. Flags and emblems
2. Anthem
3. Player selection
4. Venue
Although in theory i think an All-Ireland team would be quite strong, there would be so much behind the scenes disruption and politically correct bullsh!t going on that i think all parties could regret it and the team itself could go backwards.
I'm not tring to wind you up either, but I'm simply not interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
There IS an All ireland team - it represents the FAI. You keep your flags, anthems etc.
I'll be continuing to support those who play for Northern Ireland.