FF & Green Party in Government

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

However given the list of viable options, having the Greens in Government, with whatever influence they have, is at least worth a shot. Another 5 years off FF/PD plus a few mercenary independents with no interest in national issues was something to be avoided.

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But such an approach is short sighted. In the long term it will see a fall off in support for the greens and a blow to their movement. Look what happened to the Labour Party through its constant participation in coalitions. If Labour had stayed out of coalitions, stuck to its original principals and built a real grass roots organisation it would now be a far bigger and influential force than it is now. Capitulation after capitulation has lead to the death of the Labour Party as an independant force and it will do the same to the Greens.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

But such an approach is short sighted. In the long term it will see a fall off in support for the greens and a blow to their movement. Look what happened to the Labour Party through its constant participation in coalitions. If Labour had stayed out of coalitions, stuck to its original principals and built a real grass roots organisation it would now be a far bigger and influential force than it is now. Capitulation after capitulation has lead to the death of the Labour Party as an independant force and it will do the same to the Greens.

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If the Greens fail to exert any real influence then what you and Macy have said is absolutely right, they will be decimated at the next election (similar to the PDs).

The other side of that coin is that if they turned down a chance at Government they would be in danger of being a perpetual party of opposition, which may also impact negatively on their vote going forward.

Make no mistake, this is definately a fork in the road for the Greens with a significant potential downside, but fair play to them for giving it a lash. I don't envy the challenge they have in trying to exert a meaningful impact on FF policy over the next term.

But its very easy to spend your whole political life on the opposition benches sniping and poking holes, without actually having the responsibility of Government.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I don't envy the challenge they have in trying to exert a meaningful impact on FF policy over the next term.

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If, and I appreciate it is a big "if" at this stage, the Irish Times is right what influence will they have? Only person that knows what Ministry they'll be getting is Harney who'll be back in Health, with co-location now certain despite the Green opposition to it.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Given you support of what is generally considered, in todays Ireland, as extremist politics I can understand your view that they are all shades of the same colour.

However given the list of viable options, having the Greens in Government, with whatever influence they have, is at least worth a shot. Another 5 years off FF/PD plus a few mercenary independents with no interest in national issues was something to be avoided.

Time will tell what the Greens influence is, and they may fail miserably to exert influence, but at least they are trying advance their agenda.

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If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.

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Agreed, thats the hope, but PDs had Health and Justice, two ministeries with a lot of clout.

If the Irish Times is close to correct, I'll be shocked if the motion is approved.
Then again, I often seem to be shocked by politicians willingness to go with the flow while everyone asks me 'What did you expect?'

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.

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I think the PD influence was greatly exaggerated. The PD's policies are nothing but an honest representation of what FF really stand for. Having the PD's there gave FF someone to scapegoat for the worst aspects of the governments neo liberal agenda. Likewise, in a time of economic uncertainty, the Greens if they go into power will be fingered for the blame by "the most cunning and devious of them all".
As for them becoming a party of perpetual opposition, only if they restrict themselves to parliamentary cretinism I.E. standing for election every 5 years and not realising that you can achieve a lot outside of the dail with a dedicated network of activists behind you. If a real opposition to neo-liberalism emerges in this country, it will first emerge on the streets and only later be reflected in the normal realm of politics.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

If they can make their numbers and influence count to the same level the Progressive Democrats have done over the last 10 years they'll have made an impact and I daresay it'll be a better country for it.

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But, to echo BohsPartisan, and my earlier comments in this thread, that's only if you believe that the PD agenda was different to the FF one. If FF objected, these things would've been off the agenda. Bertie has always packed his cabinets with the right from within FF, such as McCreevy, Cullen, Brennan, Roche. It's a myth to suggest that FF is somehow left of centre - only their party activists really believe that at this stage surely?

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I think the PD influence was greatly exaggerated. The PD's policies are nothing but an honest representation of what FF really stand for.

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Undoubtedly the PD's are/were a handy scapegoat for FF but to say that their "policies are nothing but an honest representation of what FF really stand for" is not strictly true. FF is a massive catch-all party that has as many social democrats as free-marketeers in its ranks.

Hence a lot of the backbench unease about PD policy and the whole Sean Healy love-in a few years back. In fact many in FF are rightly proud of the socially-responsible work of the likes of Sean Lemass and see it as the true heritage of the party.

BTW - BP, I've done my utmost not to gloat at the kicking the electorate gave the Trots. But.... :p

BTW 2 - Got to love the irony of the Greens (possibly) going into government on the day the Ikea store gets PP. :D

KOH

I can't remember if it was in the Indo or the IT today but they listed what they thought the deal included.

- Committment to Carbon taxes within the next 5 years but no delays of what or when.
- No change on M3
- No change on Shannon
- 50m extra for Education
- Transport 21 to stay as it is. Extra funding for Public Transport outside of the plan.
- Reduction in top rate of tax as per FF manifesto to stay subject to economic conditions.

If this is the deal what exactly have the Greens got? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Macy

But, to echo BohsPartisan, and my earlier comments in this thread, that's only if you believe that the PD agenda was different to the FF one. If FF objected, these things would've been off the agenda. Bertie has always packed his cabinets with the right from within FF, such as McCreevy, Cullen, Brennan, Roche. It's a myth to suggest that FF is somehow left of centre - only their party activists really believe that at this stage surely?

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We agree on much. I don't believe the FF agenda has been much different to the PD one at all ...but the rise of many of the individuals you mention has been part of a response by FF to the emergence and continued existence of the PDs. They have indeed stacked their front benches with their own right wing which in itself acts as a bullwark against the PDs making inroads to FFs Liberal-Right constituency.

I recall hearing Brian Lenihan Snr. back in 1990 describing Fianna Fail as a "party of the near left" and frankly belly laughing at such a preposterous notion. In most respects they are the Irish equivalent of the Tories without having the balls to come out and say it.

In so far as FF has any Left Wing they tend to be stifled from emerging if they make it as far as the Dail at all ...and the ones further down the line at local council level are bigger eejits for not just walking away.

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Originally Posted by pete

I can't remember if it was in the Indo or the IT today but they listed what they thought the deal included.

- Committment to Carbon taxes within the next 5 years but no delays of what or when.
- No change on M3
- No change on Shannon
- 50m extra for Education
- Transport 21 to stay as it is. Extra funding for Public Transport outside of the plan.
- Reduction in top rate of tax as per FF manifesto to stay subject to economic conditions.

If this is the deal what exactly have the Greens got? :confused:

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If this is the deal there's nothing in it.
Carbon taxes one is a fudge. Nothing in it.

M3 was very minimum I'd have expected.

Shannon -didn't expect too much there

"extra funding for public transport" ...that could just mean fair increases.

50m "extra" for education is jack****. FF can move the pieces round on the board and trot that woman with the pigs hole on her head out to proclaim everthings brill-int in Irish schools.

Glad to see people on the top rate getting a break ...sure they're the ones who really need it:rolleyes:

Nothing on corporate donations either.

What the big hoo haa over the M3, I hope they have much bigger impact other than that on real issues that effect peoples lives.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Because of the mad voting system we use, no.

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Best system in the world.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

What the big hoo haa over the M3, I hope they have much bigger impact other than that on real issues that effect peoples lives.

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I consider destroying a national monument something that effects people's lives. Indirectly mostly but still does. They could have build a railroad at less cost than the M3 will cost.

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

BTW - BP, I've done my utmost not to gloat at the kicking the electorate gave the Trots. But.... :p

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Feel free to gloat, its water off a duck's back. I wouldn't exactly call it a kicking by the electorate anyway. Joe was a victim of Gerrymandering and Clare was a victim of people voting to keep Fine Gael out (not to mention a dodgy recount). We still have the same strong areas of support as before and though the Dail seat is a huge loss to us it doesn't effect us in the same way as the PD's were effected by their kicking as electoralism is only one aspect of our politics.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

What the big hoo haa over the M3, I hope they have much bigger impact other than that on real issues that effect peoples lives.

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Somebody pass this guy a history book and a soul

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Originally Posted by jebus

Somebody pass this guy a history book and a soul

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Indeed. When the Taliban blew the sh1t out of irreplacable Buddhist monuments in their own back yard the world was rightly disgusted at the scummy fcuks disregard for their own heritage.

But if it's here and for money it's grand sure.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Greens can either deliver or they're fooked.

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That's it exactly. If they can get a job done in government they'll do well. If they can't then there's no point in having them at all.
I don't agree with the talk of growing your party in opposition for a few decades. They're there to get stuff done and they're either up to the job or not.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Somebody pass this guy a history book and a soul

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I know far more about this than you think, and the newroad is actually further away from the Hill than the current road. To say its going to destory the Hill of Tara is an way OTT. Will it have an impact on the aesthetics of the area, yes it will. Also I agree with Bohs, that the railroad would be far better but to be honest they should probably build both with the rail as a priority.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

the newroad is actually further away from the Hill than the current road. To say its going to destory the Hill of Tara is an way OTT.

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Sorry, but that is FF and NRA spin. Whilst true that the new Motorway will be further away than the current road, the Tara-Skryne Valley and areas of archaelogical interest are much, much more than just the hill, plus there's a huge difference between a single carriageway that follows the topographical contours and a motorway including an intersection.

Why can they not just re-route it the other side of the hill? It will be built quicker that way, even now. (Actually my guess at an answer to my own question is because developers have been busy acquiring land along the current proposed route )

Reported on politics.ie that Trevor Sergeant has resigned as leader of the Greens, following on from a comment years back that he'd sooner resign than enter into Government with Fianna Fáil. If only John Delaney had acted on his word as well...

There are the usual caveats after that that it's only rumoured, and he's only said he will stand down, etc, so it appears nothing's happened as yet, but something to keep an eye on.

The notion that the Greens - or any party - should try to grow in opposition for a few decades until (presumably) they can take over themselves is nonsense. It's like a club saying they'll settle for fourth in the league each year because they don't want to embarrass themselves in Europe and take a step backwards. The only issue with the Greens, I would imagine, is not whether they want to go into Government or not, but whether it's the right deal and the right partner party.