Staunton & FAI insult to eL players

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09/10/2006, 10:37 AM
CuanaD

Quote:

Originally Posted by BohDiddley

Just found this on BFC site.

Good team that - & you can see from the article how much strength-in-depth there would be in the team too:ball:

Personally I'm all for the conspiracy theory - the FAI will not let the senior manager pick multiple eL players for the squad, UNTIL the eL comes fully under the FAI control - they have always resented the fact that the eL was a (slightly) seperate entity & therefore looked down on the league.
That & the fact that the suits ALL seem to support foreign teams:mad: & love their junkets
09/10/2006, 11:27 AM
Soper

I will say this, I watch Cardiff City at every home match, and there is no doubting that Cork, Derry, Shels, Drogs (with Sligo Rovers and Bohs next season) would hold their own in that league.People go on about EL players just being failed english lower league players, but there are an array of players in the Championship now who have failed at championship or league one standard, gone to league two or the conference, and ended up back in the championship playing regularly.Derry would beat Wolves. Luton, Coventry out of the teams I have seen come to Ninian Park this season.This is fact.
09/10/2006, 12:37 PM
lofty9

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/6032905.stm

Off in a tangent but related to the eircom league in regards to irish people/fans. I despair.:( . It would be great if we could concentrate on getting 10% extra to Eircom League games. I actually cringed with embarrassment reading this.
09/10/2006, 12:41 PM
Soper

In addition to that, Irish people are starting to support Cardiff now as well.
09/10/2006, 1:09 PM
bluemovie

Based on their European performances, I have no doubt that Derry City wouldn't have lost to Cyprus. They play as a team.

Saturday probably ranks as the most humiliating day in the history of Irish sport. Don't let anyone tell you Cyprus aren't bad. They're rubbish. I go to all of Ireland's home games and sing/shout as loudly as anyone, but I've felt a little detached from the team since Staunton took charge. Before kick off, I told my mates it would be a good game between two evenly-balanced, equally-bad teams. It was for the first half, but they destroyed us in the second.

The players should be ashamed of themselves, but I still think we have enough quality to be able to qualify for major tournaments (not this one now). A decent manager would get a whole lot more from the Duffs and Keanes. Player-for-player, we are better than the likes of Switzerland.

The FAI made the wrong choice. Stan's an honourable man so hopefully, he'll step down at the end of the week (I predict a battling 2 goal defeat to the Czechs). There are plenty of decent managers out there who would jump at the chance of managing Ireland.
09/10/2006, 2:14 PM
stann

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Now I've been in Japan for 5 years, and consequently didnt see the game last night, but I've kept up pretty well through internet and this forum, and I know the standard has been raised in that time. But I dont think it has reached the standard that eircom league players can competently replace premiership / championship players.

Not over the course of a few games, or a season, Osarusan, but in that one match, they would not have had to play to even anywhere near their potential to have been better than 7 or 8 of those in a green shirt on Saturday. Ireland weren't just beaten well, they allowed Cyprus to out-class them, in fact allowed the Cypriots to take the complete mick out of them for some of the goals. Try to get hold of a recording of the game because you will not believe your eyes.
You're right that the eL has not reached that standard, but it is equally right that the Irish team's performance dipped to way below that standard on the night. Truly shocking.
09/10/2006, 2:27 PM
bigmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemovie

The players should be ashamed of themselves, but I still think we have enough quality to be able to qualify for major tournaments (not this one now). A decent manager would get a whole lot more from the Duffs and Keanes. Player-for-player, we are better than the likes of Switzerland.

I'd have to disagree with you there bluemovie - I think that people who rubbished Switzerland were those who were swayed by the hype around the premiership and the fact that in comparison, we know very little about the other European leagues - look at the furore that surrounded Owen Hargreaves in England - all because the press assumed that the Bundesliga was nowhere near the standard of the Premiership.
Switzerland could call on players from Arsenal and AC Milan as well as a host of players playing in the Bundesliga - why should we assume that players who struggle to get their game in the Premiership should be better than them?

What we have to remember is that for every Machester United or Chelsea in the Premiership, there's a Watford, or a Sheffield United, and unfortunately, aside from a few notable exceptions - it is the lower teams that Irish players play for.
09/10/2006, 2:36 PM
centre mid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

the problem is clear here, and its the gob****e who hired stan.

Probably the most important point,

Stan was never the right man, why was Bobby Robson appointed, the FAI and Delaney in particular needs to take a long hard look at what its Mission Statement is and what it wants to achieve

Is getting a shiney new stadium to host the Uefa cup final the most important thing?
09/10/2006, 2:38 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by stann

Not over the course of a few games, or a season, Osarusan, but in that one match, they would not have had to play to even anywhere near their potential to have been better than 7 or 8 of those in a green shirt on Saturday. .
You're right that the eL has not reached that standard, but it is equally right that the Irish team's performance dipped to way below that standard on the night. Truly shocking.

Good post stann, whats an intelligent fellow like you doing on this site?:D

As I said, the fact I havent seen the game, or any recent game for that matter, and if they were that bad, well..............
09/10/2006, 4:31 PM
pete

When you see the likes of Tabb & St Ledger in the irish squad, players with minimal Championship experience in england you have to think that irish managers are biased against the eL.

St Ledger was in League Two last year & tabb never excelled in the irish U21s - he looked like fat Andy Reid to me & certainly Ward & o'Donovan performed much better.
09/10/2006, 5:47 PM
EalingGreen

View from the North

I didn't see the Cyprus game (in Copenhagen) and don't know about standards in the Eircom. It may be that a team of EL players might have done much better against Cyprus.
However, if the "solution" to Cyprus is to pick EL players in significant numbers, then sooner rather than later, they will come up against international teams with players who are fitter, more skillful, more experienced, better coached AND equally highly motivated.
Then the EL players will get found out.
People are citing (the excellent) Kevin Doyle and the success of Derry City, Shelbourne etc as proof of EL strength, but outside of the top/richest 8 or 10 clubs in England, there are 80 professional clubs who are all desperate for the next Kevin Doyle. At least some of these will have been looking closely at the Eircom and will be able to make money offers that both clubs and players won't be able to refuse. Why haven't they been snapping up players? I don't see how it can just be down to their (English) parochialism/ignorance/prejudice etc, otherwise why haven't overseas clubs, such as PSG, also been moving in? I feel this can only be that Doyle and one or two others are the exception that prove the rule, as I've observed in Irish League football over the years.

As for the future development of young players for the international team through a more professional Eircom set-up, of course it would help ROI football in all aspects if the Eircom and its clubs were to improve. However, the key to producing international players lies not with who they sign for at 16 or 17; rather, the crucial aspect is how they're taught the game long before that. (According to Arsene Wenger, if kids haven't mastered the very basics before they are 11 or 12, it's almost certainly already too late for them to become absolutely top class. This is why he is now looking beyond even France or the rest of Europe, to find players for Arsenal from Africa and the former French colonies, where he is being offered the cream of "graduates" from well-organised Academies, which school huge numbers of talented and desperate young kids)

Of course, if talented, well-coached young teenagers are being produced in the ROI, then it is in their interests (and the national team's), if they then proceed to the environment which will best take them to the next level. It may be that individual EL clubs might be able to do that on a consistent basis, but with a population of 3.5 million, it's hard to see more than one or two clubs reaching that level. After all, Scotland with over 5 million, over 20 full-time clubs and a much greater history, can only produce 4 or 5 clubs of any note in this respect.
Therefore, unless or until continental clubs start to visit the ROI for young talent (now that they're scouring pretty much the rest of the world), then England, with a population of 50 million supporting 100 professional clubs, is the obvious destination for 90% of good young prospective internationals.

As for what is to be done with the ROI team in the short-term, I have to say that those posters who have been excoriating the present players are probably misplaced in their criticisms. The likes of O'Shea, Keane, McGeady and Duff haven't suddenly lost their ability, unless you think judges such as Ferguson, Jol, Strachan and Roeder are fools for picking them each week for their clubs.
And as for the "supporting cast", even if these are weaker than in previous years (and not helped by injuries), then they still surely should be good enough to beat the likes of Cyprus.
I say that on the basis of watching NI in recent matches. Against Denmark, for example, our opponents played for Villa, Liverpool and Fulham from the English Prem; Stuttgart, Schalke and W.Bremen from the Bundesliga; Seville from the Primera Liga; Auxerre from Ligue 1 and Fiorentina from Serie A. The remaining two play for 1 FC Copenhagen, Denmark's top club, who have qualified for the Group Stages of the Champions League, eliminating Ajax along the way.
By contrast, the NI team was as follows:
Taylor - 36 y.o. keeper at Birmingham;
Duff - Burnley Centre Back, but played at right back;
Craigan - Motherwell (says it all, really);
Hughes - Villa Right Back, played at Centre Back;
Evans - 18 year old Centre Back, never played a compeitive game for MU, currently on loan to a Belgian 2nd Division club. Oh, and played out of position at Left Back. (Could just be the next Paul McGrath, mind. Only better. And ours!)
Gillespie - veteran winger playing occasionally for Sheff U;
Davis - fair enough, already absolute Star player. Only God knows how far he'll go under Martin O'Neill;
Clingan - 22 year old at Forest (English "third" division), cuffed 4-0 at home by S****horpe on Saturday in his absence(!);
Baird - Centre Back from Southampton, played in midfield;
Healy - God the Father, Son and Holy Goalscorer, but content to "slum it" amongst His flock in the English "2nd Division";
Lafferty - was 19 last month, has started fewer games than that for Burnley, though what a prospect. As Billy Hamilton said, he'd "chase paper on a windy day", such is his effort!

Basically the Danes (ranked No.15 in the world), tried to batter us for 90 minutes, plus the six longest minutes of injury time ever known, but we held out for a point.

Therefore, it seems to me that the only difference to account for this performance over that of an ROI team with superior players, is that Sanchez basically knows what he's doing, whereas Staunton is a lemon.
And it looks for all the world like the ROI players lost confidence in Stan by the second or third match, and now they've lost confidence in themselves.
Of course, it's not for me to say what you should do about him. Personally, I'd be all for allowing him more time, if only to prove me wrong. Or, at least until NI have overtaken you in the rankings...:D

P.S. I saw a lot of Jay Tabb when he was at Brentford. He's a great little player already, and as good as any of a number of Brentford players who've recently gone on to play at a much higher level (inc.Premiership and international). His major drawback is that he's only about 5' 5". However, he's nippy enough usually to avoid trouble and his attitude, both as a player and a person is absolutely top class - Bees fans love him. Micky Adams will have seen him when he managed Brentford and Tabb was in his early teens, so it's no coincidence he was so keen to sign him for Coventry. I only wish he was one of ours!
09/10/2006, 7:58 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I didn't see the Cyprus game (in Copenhagen) and don't know about standards in the Eircom.

You could've shortened your post a fair bit and left it at that.
09/10/2006, 8:42 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

You could've shortened your post a fair bit and left it at that.

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?
09/10/2006, 9:38 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?

In your analysis of Staunton being the problem, you fail to consider the motivation of the players. The Irish team has more Premiership players & whilst this should result in a more able team than N.I., all it has resulted in is a bunch of highly paid wasters who have very little heart & no fight for the jersey.

Face it, when you're on 40 or 50k a week, where are you going to put your effort in, with your paymaster or elsewhere?

IMHO, EL players would give a lot more in the way of effort than the Premiership primadonnas, many having had to combine a job with their football in the past.

And instead of bulking the squad out with plastic paddies like St. Ledger, there are a few able EL players that would do a job.

In relation to Tabb, I`ve seen him for the U21s a few timcs & he acquited himelf fine, but no better than Deery & Ward in the same team, who, as you`ve probably guessed, are EL players.

In relation to the Cyprus game, its particularly relevant as Cork knocked their Champions League representative out this year.
09/10/2006, 9:45 PM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

People are citing (the excellent) Kevin Doyle and the success of Derry City, Shelbourne etc as proof of EL strength, but outside of the top/richest 8 or 10 clubs in England, there are 80 professional clubs who are all desperate for the next Kevin Doyle. At least some of these will have been looking closely at the Eircom and will be able to make money offers that both clubs and players won't be able to refuse. Why haven't they been snapping up players?

Reading fluked big time when they signed Doyle. Its possible they would not have been promoted without him. I would agree with your point if he just did ok but he was voted best player in last years Championship. Coppell has since admitted he was unsure of signing Doyle even at the small fee the paid - if this doesn't show the anti-eL bias i don't what does. By your logic only when eL players deemed good enough by UK club managers are they deemed worthy of consideration. I think you need to inform yourself what by watch some eL teams in europe nest season.
09/10/2006, 9:46 PM
gustavo

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Face it, when you're on 40 or 50k a week, where are you going to put your effort in, with your paymaster or elsewhere?
.

Didnt do the Italians any harm
09/10/2006, 9:59 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustavo

Didnt do the Italians any harm

Was it a coincidence that they all live and play in the country they were representing?
09/10/2006, 10:59 PM
gustavo

Yeah i suppose it cant have done them any harm! but your main point was about the money which im sure the Azurri arent short of.
10/10/2006, 7:40 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?

The main point here is that League of Ireland football shouldn't be ignored when it comes to the national team. Whatever about LOI players being good or not enough for a starting position in the national side, they're certainly deserving of places in the squad.

I think you are misguided when you say that other professional leagues aren't falling over themselves to sign LOI players. League of Ireland matches are heavily scouted by British clubs and two Scandinavian clubs have placed quite substantial bids on LOI players in the recent past. The league has also schooled a number of "high"-profile managers in the past, not least it was the managerial birthplace of one Lawrie Sanchez.

Ireland's population (The Republic) is over 4 million and pretty much the same as Norway's. Norway has had teams in the Champions League in the past, currently has teams at the same level as FCK (Copenhagen), and has teams that needed 12 penalties to get by a LOI side into the first-round proper of the UEFA Cup. And honestly, we are already at the same level as the Scottish Premier Division but as you say you know nothing. Just of note - as pointed out by somebody else in this thread - our best U21 players are playing in the LOI. Surely this shows that regular first-team football is better for player development that the fields of an academy farm in Britain? But should I direct this question at you - as you have said you know nothing?

Ireland has the players to put out a number of teams capable of beating the Cypiot national side. End of story and Stan OUT!

Northern Ireland has shown us that ten players behind the ball can get a 0-0 draw in Copenhagen, and that playing on the counter at home can get a win against Spain. (Northern Ireland should be highly commended for beating the Spanish - Sweden literally copied the North's tactics in that match when they beat Spain Saturday night with both their goals coming, you guessed it, on the counter). Northern Ireland has also shown us that a team with limited technical ability is unable to steer the pace of a match and put all expectation and hype on "ice", so to speak. Ireland is being shown a lesson by the North - organisation and tactics go a long way in international football but as expectations rise, lack of technical ability will be caught out. An LOI manager knows this, that's why Sanchez says Wednesday night is a much tougher game than the one in Copehagen because the North is expected to go out and win.
10/10/2006, 12:41 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

The main point here is that League of Ireland football shouldn't be ignored when it comes to the national team. Whatever about LOI players being good or not enough for a starting position in the national side, they're certainly deserving of places in the squad.

I think you are misguided when you say that other professional leagues aren't falling over themselves to sign LOI players. League of Ireland matches are heavily scouted by British clubs and two Scandinavian clubs have placed quite substantial bids on LOI players in the recent past. The league has also schooled a number of "high"-profile managers in the past, not least it was the managerial birthplace of one Lawrie Sanchez.

Ireland's population (The Republic) is over 4 million and pretty much the same as Norway's. Norway has had teams in the Champions League in the past, currently has teams at the same level as FCK (Copenhagen), and has teams that needed 12 penalties to get by a LOI side into the first-round proper of the UEFA Cup. And honestly, we are already at the same level as the Scottish Premier Division but as you say you know nothing. Just of note - as pointed out by somebody else in this thread - our best U21 players are playing in the LOI. Surely this shows that regular first-team football is better for player development that the fields of an academy farm in Britain? But should I direct this question at you - as you have said you know nothing?

Ireland has the players to put out a number of teams capable of beating the Cypiot national side. End of story and Stan OUT!

If you bring players into a squad, it must be on the basis that they can step up to the mark and compete consistently, if need be. There may well be one or two individuals in the EL who could do so, but I find it very hard to believe that it is many more than that. This opinion derives from the fact that despite being "heavily scouted" by GB and Continental clubs (as you say) very few are actually being bought - "Show me the Money" is what counts.
A succession of ROI managers have declined to pick EL players over the years, inc. Brian Kerr. Are you saying he didn't know their worth, or was prejudiced against them?
In recent years, NI has resorted to trying some of our top IL players - e.g. Gary Hamilton, Glenn Ferguson and Peter Thompson. These are hardly significantly poorer than their EL counterparts, yet they have been consistently found wanting.
I note that Pat McCourt is in Derry's team, with Patrick Jennings Jr. challenging for the keeper's spot. McCourt (widely recognised as one of the most talented players in the EL), had his chance in England, without hacking it. At Rochdale. And for a young keeper, no name opens doors quicker than PJ Jnr's. He's had contracts and trials galore at all levels in England and wasn't even good enough for non-League.
As for the impressive exploits of Shelbourne and Derry City, fair enough. However, consider this: in recent years, Millwall got to an FA Cup Final and Wycombe to the Semi-Final, ahead of many "big" clubs. Where are they now? How many top players emerged from either team? Tim Cahill for one, plus a couple more at a lower level.
And who are these "high profile" managers the EL has schooled? Sanchez is v.highly qualified, but this stems from his taking a University Degree whilst playing for Reading, followed by post-graduate Management qualifications and Coaching Badges whilst at Wimbledon etc. Sure, his first actual job was at Sligo, but how long was he there? Martin O'Neill's first managerial post was at Grantham Town, followed by Shepshed Charterhouse FC. Are you saying they, or Non-League Football, "produced" him?

As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable. It may be that the top couple of EL clubs might be on a par with the bottom couple of SPL clubs, but they don't even come close to e.g. Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen, never mind Celtic - recent UEFA Finalists, or Rangers - CL Group competitors.
Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

As for your best U-21 players being in the EL, I'm sure that is true. But is it because the EL has improved sufficiently to keep these youngsters from being lured to England, or is it because English clubs are now signing young players from every country in the world, so that even the best of young Irish players don't get a look in? Scott Carson is currently the England U-21 keeper. Last season he was hardly Liverpool's third choice, behind Reyna, Dudek and Kirkland.
Of course, you may well be right that regular EL football may be a better schooling than English Academies. But having received this schooling, how many are pushing on beyond the EL, either in England or further afield?

Anyhow, I'll agree with you on one point, the ROI should be able to put out three teams to beat Cyprus. But if Stan couldn't manage it with his first choice, how on earth could he do it with his third choice?

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