Lionel Messi

I have to say I was impressed with Messi tonight, and I would probably give him the MOTM. Xavi and Ineista went missing for long periods, Eto was quiet enough, Pique did well, as did a few others.

Daniel Alves was a disaster, thank god he's not there for the final. Wasn't Man Utd interested in him? Lucky escape if they were.

If Messi can repeat that performance in the final and a couple others improve their game, Barca have a chance of taking home the trophey. I hope they do it tbh, getting sick of Man Utd winning everything.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Would it really have to take something that extraordinary for the European Champions to retain their title? They are 6 points ahead of Chelsea with a game in hand in the league as well as winning the title the last 2 years. Surely the difference between both defences would give them a fighting chance against Barca. You are pretty much saying that if it's a level playing field United have no chance which I think is a bit ridiculous.

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I think it would take a non-normal set of circumstances. Aside from last night they have not convinced me at all in Europe this season. In the group stages they only beat Celtic and Aalborg this season. Celtic are an average European team, they don't have the class they used to back around 2003 and without players like Larsson and Hartson they lack dynamism at the very top level of competition. Aalborg are, to put it simply, a very poor side.

In the knockout stages they did well against a reasonably good Inter side but examining the game in greater detail, Inter created significant chances in the second leg in particular - less profligate strikers would have punished Manchester United. Against Porto they struggled in the first leg and other teams, with a bit more potency, would have done a job on them in the second leg. At the Dragao they ceeded so much posession to the home team in the latter stages of the second half it was unreal.

Of course we won't get the chance to see a normal game now as Barca have been hamstrung by the loss of both full backs for the final over very questionable decisions. I still expect Barca to put up a good game and I think the class they have in midfield (Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi ahead of them) will tell in the end, but it won't be the one sided affair it would be under normal circumstances.

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Are you actually saying that all these teams are better than Man Utd-
Juventus
Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Liverpool

or did you mean they are better than the teams that United had on their side of the draw, which was the easier side I admit.

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Contrast that with Juventus, who by the way have at least 3 players who would walk into their team (Buffon, Del Piero, Nedved) and a few others who are probably as good as what is at Old Trafford, or will be in the near future (Chiellini, Giovinco, Marchisio). Juventus topped what was without question the hardest group. They were undefeated against Real Madrid, Zenit (who hasd crushed all before them in most of 2008 - including Man Utd in Monaco). I thought they were unlucky against Chelsea and the injury to Nedved during that game was telling. I would fancy Juventus to progress over Man Utd over the two legs.

Real Madrid again came through a tough group. I think they suffered due to the change in management. Huntelaar was brought to cover for Van Nistelrooy, but he was not registered for the Champions League - instead they picked Lassana Diarra. I am still not sure why they did this - on paper it was to cover Mamadou Diarra and Ruben De La Red both of whom were out for the season. But in reality Gago, Guti or even Metzelder / Miguel Torres could have been pushed into defensive midfiled - they should have registered Huntelaar, and their lack of cutting edge upfront was telling in the knockout stage. I think a fully fit Real Madrid with the likes of M. Diarra, Van Nistelroy and a fully fit Robben would test any team, including Man Utd. In Casillas they have one of the best players in Euro 2008 and there is strength in other areas of the team too.

Bayern, on balance, are probably not as strong as Man Utd, but again they have some world class players, Ribery, Schwienstiger, Lucio, Lahm and Klose are all class players. They sailed through a tougher group than Man Utd (undefeated against Fiorentina, Lyons and Steaua) and destroyed an admittedly weak Lisbon side - but to get that many goals in the knockouts in both legs is sensational.

Liverpool, in my opinion, are significantly stonger than Man Utd. They have beaten them twice this season already including the easy win they had at Old Trafford. Man Utd cannot / could not cope with Torres (best striker in Europe at the moment) and the invention and guile of Xabi Alonso and the supporting cast in midfield. I'm not a massive fan of Liverpool and for much of the 1990s and 2000s they were average, but this squad they have now is fantastic. Like I say they've already beaten them twice this season and I think they would do the same again.

A great mythology is developing around Man Utd this season thanks to the English press and one or two on here seem to be falling for it. Yes they are a good side, but they are by no means unbeatable. Zenit demolished them at the start of the season, Villareal nullified them in the Group stage and Porto made them look average at best. In the league they've been slipping lately, Liverpool and Fulham beat them and they just edged past Villa and Sunderland. They are beatable and Barca have the players to do it.

cfdh - Man City beat Man Utd twice last season but so what? It doesn't make them a better side than United so to say Liverpool is 'significantly stronger' than Man Utd is surprising. Liverpool's squad is not fantastic and if I'm being honest is the main reason why their title challenge has stumbled since January. An injury to Torres and they have no decent back up as striker. If Gerrard gets injured they look to Leiva and Yossi. Man Utd on the other hand have the best squad in Europe. Top class cover in every position.

Man Utd have not played as well as they did last year but they are still on track for a double which is no mean feat and are starting to hit top gear right now. They were outstanding against Inter away. I note you only mention the Second leg. On another night United could have taken a four goal advantage back to Old Trafford. I was also impressed with their performance away to Porto when most of the world had written them off after being second best to Porto in the first leg.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I think it would take a non-normal set of circumstances. Aside from last night they have not convinced me at all in Europe this season. In the group stages they only beat Celtic and Aalborg this season. Celtic are an average European team, they don't have the class they used to back around 2003 and without players like Larsson and Hartson they lack dynamism at the very top level of competition. Aalborg are, to put it simply, a very poor side.

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My God man there was only 3 teams to play in the group altogether. Who cares how bad Celtic or Aalborg are. They beat them both 3-0 anyway and drew at Celtic Park where the majority of teams don't get a result. The cruised through the group in 2nd gear (if that!). Also Celtic have qualified for the knock out stage twice in the last 3 years, something they never achieved when Larsson or the great John Hartson were there. I agree that they were a better side back then though.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

In the knockout stages they did well against a reasonably good Inter side but examining the game in greater detail, Inter created significant chances in the second leg in particular - less profligate strikers would have punished Manchester United. Against Porto they struggled in the first leg and other teams, with a bit more potency, would have done a job on them in the second leg. At the Dragao they ceeded so much posession to the home team in the latter stages of the second half it was unreal.

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I think everybody knows that United had their sticky patch around this period, for whatever reason. It happens. United were very poor in a number of games which included Inter and Porto at home as well as the league defeats to Liverpool and Fulham and even the victories against Villa and Sunderland. It's very rare a team goes through a season without some dip but a blind man could see that United a nearer where they should be at the moment.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Of course we won't get the chance to see a normal game now as Barca have been hamstrung by the loss of both full backs for the final over very questionable decisions. I still expect Barca to put up a good game and I think the class they have in midfield (Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi ahead of them) will tell in the end, but it won't be the one sided affair it would be under normal circumstances.

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You clearly have some deep routed hatred for United. That's fine but I really think it's making you see things very hazy. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Barcelona v United would be a one-sided affair under any circumstances. United are without their best semi final performer imo and Barcelona are arguably without their worst, in Alves. Of course it's a blow to be without their regular full backs but it surely couldn't be used as an excuse in defeat. If Iniesta and Henry are both out you may have more of an argument. If United lose I certainly won't be saying- if only they had Fletcher or Hargreaves.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Contrast that with Juventus, who by the way have at least 3 players who would walk into their team (Buffon, Del Piero, Nedved) and a few others who are probably as good as what is at Old Trafford, or will be in the near future (Chiellini, Giovinco, Marchisio). Juventus topped what was without question the hardest group. They were undefeated against Real Madrid, Zenit (who hasd crushed all before them in most of 2008 - including Man Utd in Monaco). I thought they were unlucky against Chelsea and the injury to Nedved during that game was telling. I would fancy Juventus to progress over Man Utd over the two legs.

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You're obsessed with the group stages of the Champs Lge for some reason. Yes Juve came through impressively and I do believe they are a good side. Having said that, they are in 3rd place in Serie A, 11 points behind a team United disposed of quite comfortably over 2 legs (should have been over after the first leg despite some scares in the second). There is absolutely nothing to suggest Juve would have given United more of a test, let alone knock them out.

As for Zenit crushing all before them, well they won the UEFA Cup very impressively but it was the UEFA Cup.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Real Madrid again came through a tough group. I think they suffered due to the change in management. Huntelaar was brought to cover for Van Nistelrooy, but he was not registered for the Champions League - instead they picked Lassana Diarra. I am still not sure why they did this - on paper it was to cover Mamadou Diarra and Ruben De La Red both of whom were out for the season. But in reality Gago, Guti or even Metzelder / Miguel Torres could have been pushed into defensive midfiled - they should have registered Huntelaar, and their lack of cutting edge upfront was telling in the knockout stage. I think a fully fit Real Madrid with the likes of M. Diarra, Van Nistelroy and a fully fit Robben would test any team, including Man Utd. In Casillas they have one of the best players in Euro 2008 and there is strength in other areas of the team too.

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Real are a mess. I'm sure with better management and a couple of signings they could be better. They are a long way off United/Chelsea/Barcelona/Liverpool's level at the moment though, I think they've proved that.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Bayern, on balance, are probably not as strong as Man Utd, but again they have some world class players, Ribery, Schwienstiger, Lucio, Lahm and Klose are all class players. They sailed through a tougher group than Man Utd (undefeated against Fiorentina, Lyons and Steaua) and destroyed an admittedly weak Lisbon side - but to get that many goals in the knockouts in both legs is sensational.

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The groups again:confused: Not sure that group is much better than United's by the way. They were freaky results against Sporting but I think they showed how misleading they were in the next round.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Liverpool, in my opinion, are significantly stonger than Man Utd. They have beaten them twice this season already including the easy win they had at Old Trafford. Man Utd cannot / could not cope with Torres (best striker in Europe at the moment) and the invention and guile of Xabi Alonso and the supporting cast in midfield.

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You're very selective of your results. Vidic and co dealt very well with Torres in his first 2 games against them. I agree though he is the best striker in Europe/The World and he was bound to have a day where he'd do well against United. Seriously though, once off results withstanding, how could you come to the conclusion Liverpool are significantly stronger than United. What's the point in even having these competitions if winning them doesn't offer some kind of proof that you are the best? United are on the verge of 3 in a row PL titles- to most normal thinking people this would indicate they are the strongest team in that league, not significantly weaker than those they finish ahead of. United have done better than Liverpool in every competition they entered this season.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I'm not a massive fan of Liverpool and for much of the 1990s and 2000s they were average, but this squad they have now is fantastic. Like I say they've already beaten them twice this season and I think they would do the same again.

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Even most die hard Pool fans would admit that their biggest weakness is the lack of quality in their squad. Their full backs are poor, they have only one striker of note and they rely on Lucas when one of their midfielders is absent. United have been changing their team constantly with little difference to their performance level.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

A great mythology is developing around Man Utd this season thanks to the English press and one or two on here seem to be falling for it. Yes they are a good side, but they are by no means unbeatable. Zenit demolished them at the start of the season, Villareal nullified them in the Group stage and Porto made them look average at best. In the league they've been slipping lately, Liverpool and Fulham beat them and they just edged past Villa and Sunderland. They are beatable and Barca have the players to do it.

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I don't think anybody is suggesting United are unbeatable. The English press always go overboard about everything so we'll leave them out of it. As for Zenit demolishing ten man United 2-1, ok but I don't think the Euro Super Cup was a priority in fairness. I'd add my list of teams Liverpool didn't beat or only barely beat this season but I think I've done enough writing.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

When Messi scores against English opposition in the CL, then we can call him great. Getafe and levente are not Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, not in the same league to be honest and if any of the English top sides played those Spanish teams it would be 6 or 7 nil.

I have a feeling a lot of people on this thread learned their soccer from watching tv and not playing the game. Soccer is a game about pitting yourself against others, it's no use being good against useless teams and useless against good teams.

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Thank god we can finally call Messi great after his 38th goal this season.:)

Voted World Player of the Year. Not sure he had huge competition this year though.

best player I've ever seen in the flesh.

Good to see I was spot on about my Liverpool assessment from 6 months ago.

Have been watching this guy for a long time since he first came on the scene. I have to admit I think he is a tad over-rated. He just never did it for me, dont know why.

I think Xavi and Iniesta make him look better then what he is. They are head and shoulders the 2 best players on the planet.

Remind you of anyone?

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Remind you of anyone?

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a young Aiden McGeady. :)