Lionel Messi

Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Messi wasn't poor last season against United though. Barcelona were on their worst run of the season at that stage and couldn't buy a goal. Messi worked very hard and was the only player who looked at all dangerous. He was the best attacking force in those two games last season. It wasn't his fault that the rest of the team were useless at the time.

Agreed. I thought Messi was MOTM in both legs but Uniteds mass defence and Barca's lack of form - particularly Eto - meant that Messi was confronted by 3 or 4 players even after he beat his man. Ronaldo was anonymous in both legs (after missing the penalty in the first few mins in the Nou Camp) and was still crowned World Player of the Year.

I think anyone who watched both legs last year agreed Messi was the best player going forward. And only a wonder strike from Scholes separated the teams.

Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Absolute rubbish. Are you attempting to say that they were great in every game they played in? Did they always score or get an assist? Maradona was generally poor for Barcelona and had his greatest moment at the age of 26. Messi is 5 years off that age. Great players can have poor games.

Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done, one while still only a 17 year old. He played his international career at the same time as Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Eusebio, Puskas, Beckenbar and many other stars so I don't think you could say he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

Originally Posted by Emmet7

Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done, one while still only a 17 year old. He played his international career at the same time as Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Eusebio, Puskas, Beckenbar and many other stars so I don't think you could say he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

What has he done against Chelsea, Arsenal or Man. United in the Champions League though?
He's not truly great until he has proven himself there.

Originally Posted by Emmet7

This the same Real Madrid that Liverpool thrashed at Anfield and beat well in Madrid?

No, it is the Real Madrid side who were La Liga champions that season.

Originally Posted by Emmet7

what I look for in a great player is a game breaker in top top matches.

Barcelona vs Getafe is not a top top match, nor is most of the matches Barcelona play week in week out.

Is there a bigger club game in the world than Barca-Real Madrid? Messi has done it in plenty of big matches- just because he apparantly doesn't do it in a select few does not mean he is not a big game player.

Originally Posted by Emmet7

When Messi scores against English opposition in the CL, then we can call him great. Getafe and levente are not Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, not in the same league to be honest and if any of the English top sides played those Spanish teams it would be 6 or 7 nil.

You do know there's more teams in La Liga than Getafe and Levante? Also more teams than that who play in the CL? Also teams who have played against Argentina. That should be enough to drive the point home but with you...

Originally Posted by Emmet7

Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done, one while still only a 17 year old. He played his international career at the same time as Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Eusebio, Puskas, Beckenbar and many other stars so I don't think you could say he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

An even better player: Ali Daei.

He scored 109 goals in 149 games for Iran. He played at the same time as Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi, Zinedine Zidane, Diego Maradona, Romario, Roberto Baggio, Marcel Desailly and many other stars so I don't think you could say that he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Daei

Anyone can do use a quick fix argument from Wikipedia to prove a point. Using purely statistics would suggest that you've barely seen Pele play. The fact that you didn't even bring up Maradona would suggest that you didn't find his stats favourable enough. If you're going to judge players against each other, you should probably watch them first.

Having a great game tonight but I suppose it doesn't count , it's only away in the Bernebeau in a title deciding game

[QUOTE=Emmet7;1153424]Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done,

Paul Breitner scored in 2 finals for West Germany, Zidane also and Viva a teamate of Pele

The whole Barca team can be summed up in one word: WOW! Hopefully they can do the business this week. It'd be a shame for such a wonderful team to not grace the Champions League Final.

Originally Posted by jmurphyc

The whole Barca team can be summed up in one word: WOW! Hopefully they can do the business this week. It'd be a shame for such a wonderful team to not grace the Champions League Final.

They probably should have scored 10 tonight. Their defending of set pieces is worry though. Madrid didn't put any pressure on the ball & Barca ran rings around them. Interestingly Messi played in the centre forward position for most of the game. He seems to save his best for EL Clasico.

From a couple of years ago...

Originally Posted by jmurphyc

The whole Barca team can be summed up in one word: WOW! Hopefully they can do the business this week. It'd be a shame for such a wonderful team to not grace the Champions League Final.

It's easy to look wonderful against a side who can't defend. When Chelsea put it up to them last week, they couldn't cope.

Obviously scoring 6 at the Bernabeau is a big achievement but I think it says far more about Madrid than Barcelona.

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Obviously scoring 6 at the Bernabeau is a big achievement but I think it says far more about Madrid than Barcelona.

Well Barca have already scored 100 goals in the league this season before this Real hadn't lost since the last time they had played Barca

Originally Posted by mypost

It's easy to look wonderful against a side who can't defend. When Chelsea put it up to them last week, they couldn't cope.

They couldn't cope? Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Chelsea stuff them? No. They got a 0-0 draw. Fair play to them, they're the first team to stop Barca scoring at the Nou Camp this season, but all Barcelona need is a score draw at Stamford Bridge to get the final. Not beyond the realms of possibility. The tie is still very much in the balance.

147 goals in all competitions this season would suggest that they are a wonderful side. Not many teams score that many in a season.

Originally Posted by Emmet7

Getafe and levente are not Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, not in the same league to be honest

And Hull and West Brom are not in the same league as Real, Barca, Valencia or Atletico. Whats your point?

Originally Posted by Emmet7

including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done

Vava 1958 and 62
Breitner 1972 and 82
Zidane 1998 and 06

Originally Posted by gustavo

Well Barca have already scored 100 goals in the league this season before this Real hadn't lost since the last time they had played Barca

Ya they're a quality side, no doubt. Just saying that Real are absolutely brutal, I don't care how many games they went unbeaten. It's like they don't have a centre midfield.

Originally Posted by stojkovic

Vava 1958 and 62
Breitner 1972 and 82
Zidane 1998 and 06

1974

Big test for Messi tomorrow night against Chelsea.

Putting 6 past a worst in living memory Real Madrid is one thing, but playing a blinder against Chelsea is another.

And if they beat Chelsea, there is the small matter of Man Utd in the final.

Does anyone think Messi will be world class against Chelsea tomorrow and again against Utd in the final?

This is his chance, to prove that he is the world class player everyone believes he is.

Originally Posted by Emmet7

Big test for Messi tomorrow night against Chelsea.

Putting 6 past a worst in living memory Real Madrid is one thing, but playing a blinder against Chelsea is another.

And if they beat Chelsea, there is the small matter of Man Utd in the final.

Does anyone think Messi will be world class against Chelsea tomorrow and again against Utd in the final?

This is his chance, to prove that he is the world class player everyone believes he is.

It depends, if Chelsea put 2-3 players marking him then he might struggle, but then you would expect Xavi, Iniesta and Henry to profit more from the extra space you would assume they'll have.

Tomorrow's match should be interesting, you have the finest collection of individual talent on one hand (Barca) and the best coach of the modern era on the other (Hiddink). It's very hard to call but I think Chelsea might just edge it. Drogba is slipping back into form and I think Chelsea could profit from sloppy defending (by Barca) at set plays. Puyol has not looked too convincing at this stage of the season and with physical players like Ivanovic and Alex Chelsea could have chances. Tactically Hiddink rarely get's it wrong (though if there is a statistical weakness it occurs when his teams play Iberian opposition), and I think he'll play the right system tomorrow night. If there is a manager who knows how to snuff out Messi, it's Hiddink.

I think the winner of the tie tomorrow night will win in Rome, only a crippling injury / suspension or a freak incident during the game in Rome can prevent this in my opinion. In fact I would go so far as to say every team in that side of the draw was stronger than every team in the other side of the knockout draw (with the exception of Lisbon and Lyon).

Theyu don't have to worry about Puyol as he's suspended.

Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I think the winner of the tie tomorrow night will win in Rome, only a crippling injury / suspension or a freak incident during the game in Rome can prevent this in my opinion.

Would it really have to take something that extraordinary for the European Champions to retain their title? They are 6 points ahead of Chelsea with a game in hand in the league as well as winning the title the last 2 years. Surely the difference between both defences would give them a fighting chance against Barca. You are pretty much saying that if it's a level playing field United have no chance which I think is a bit ridiculous.

Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

In fact I would go so far as to say every team in that side of the draw was stronger than every team in the other side of the knockout draw (with the exception of Lisbon and Lyon).

Are you actually saying that all these teams are better than Man Utd-
Juventus
Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Liverpool

or did you mean they are better than the teams that United had on their side of the draw, which was the easier side I admit.