No, its all okay now. The Lisbon Treaty passed, there are going to be jobs coming out of Enda Kenny's @rse on Monday morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by don ramo
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No, its all okay now. The Lisbon Treaty passed, there are going to be jobs coming out of Enda Kenny's @rse on Monday morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by don ramo
Do we not think it a viable statement that in order for the government to effect what they perceive to be hugely important constitutional change upon us that it should require a majority of the people to agree ?Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
It clearly is not the case today in our current system - but surely by staying away, the government have failed to persuade those people of the fundamental importance of the change to our constitutional arrangements ?
You are right - there is no perfect alternative - but despite the fact that the US is a corrupt society, their system, on paper, is as close to ideal as one could conceiveQuote:
Originally Posted by John83
The US people get to vote every 2 years at national level, get to vote at local level on representative issues and on state level issues - and once they elect congress and the senate, a key piece of their representatives job is to aprpove a vast array of posts within the administration
Miles away from being perfect but nobody in the US has ever been president - or ever will be, without either having been on a national ticket, or having inherited the office through a perverse set of circumstance (both the P and VP killed) - but there is an act of succession
So they will never have a president that is an inconceivable selection - and they get to vote on each one !
We have Jose Manuel Barroso - who nobody voted for
While some of the US electoral system's attributes are great - you missed recall elections - it's not "close to ideal" by any stretch of the imagination. Their electoral college system is undemocratic and prone to fraud; single winner is, to be perfectly frank, just plain crap; and their preponderance to make just about everything electoral - sherrif, coroner, judge, parking valet - is just silly.
A mash-up of ours and theirs would be nice though.
adam
I think the Coir and UKIP thing had an effect alright, as had the vast amounts of money the yes side had at their disposal. All in all it was a farcical campaign from the vast majority on both sides and made a mockery of political engagement.
I would agree with the above. I think as much as anything the No side lost this as opposed to the Yes side really winning it. Coir did immense damage, they certainly managed to publicise themselves though.
I think Ganley could have made a difference but the Libertas poster campaign was shockingly bad, with the possible exception of the Cowen poster it really can't have done their cause any good.
The No side lacked any real credible voices, hence the nutters were able to set the agenda.
So where do I apply for one of these jobs a Yes vote was going to create?
Those Libertas ones were almost funny they were so bad. I nearly choked the first time I saw one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Enda Kenny's back passage, apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
I was under the impression that the Yes side were saying a No vote would cost jobs rather than a Yes vote creating them.
It'll be interesting to see if even a fraction of the bad stuff predicted by the No side comes to pass now that we've broken our sacred covenant with Jesus.
Have we ever had an absolute majority of voters for any issue in this country? I don't think it's practical while apathy is an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus
Look lads, the No side didn't lose it. The Yes side didn't win it. Fear won it. My own constituency overturned it's high No vote last year, we lost all bar 2 constituencies. It's not losing that hurts, as much as the scale of the defeat. The Yes side didn't suddenly gain 21% of the public's support in a year. There was another factor, and we have no control over that.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey4ireland
Mary McAleese doesn't have many more duties left, apart from give her assent to the treaty. When someone like Blair becomes EU President, that's who we'll be answerable to.
I haven't laughed that hard since the comedy club closed. No father Ted analogy does it. I'd buy a TV licence if RTE would give these people their own prime-time show. They are priceless and would be the funniest thing on telly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
You're right, a pronouncement by some crackpot holy Joe is definitely comparable to assurances given by all the major parties and multinationals in the state in the course of multi-million euro advertising campaigns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
i know it looks strange but i thought answearing my own questions would look less crazy if i quoted them, :oQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
but i would like to know the time scale involved as to when we will be exiting this recession, and when all the jobs are coming back, cause we will stay in this recession untill we get positive growth, which will require the country to make money, and for the country to make money, it needs to create jobs,
To use the last recession as an example, it began in the mid-70's as a result of the oil crisis and ended in Ireland in 1983, roughly 10 years long. It wasn't until 1994 before jobs became readily available. 21 years after entering the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by don ramo
We should be technically out of recession soon. However, several years of severe budgets dictated by Brussels and Frankfurt, and jobless economic "growth" as a result of those budgets will have to be endured before jobs become readily available here again. The unemployment situation will worsen considerably by that time. That's the reality of what we have to look forward to.
And no vote to make a difference.
i am deffinately not looking forward to the next decade, but you whats great for creating jobs, a nice big war:D
Now we've voted King Tony I into power I'd say the chances of that are pretty high!
I paused the vid when I saw who it was. I wouldn't give him the publicity. Same goes for his leader. He is partly responsible for 200k jobs lost, and savage cuts in salaries due to levies.
I would be inclined to agree with the comments below though.
I think the veracity of the myth is that we're some strain of doomed regardless, just probably less doomed with it. Anyway, I wouldn't be expecting too many revelations, or if there are it'll be later rather than sooner - by which stage the intermingling of factors will greatly complicate any investigations into "the effects of Lisbon."Quote:
Originally Posted by joey4ireland
It was always going to be difficult to construct concrete and immediately applicable arguments on the largely abstract base of a Treaty. The practical ramifications can only emerge slowly. So it is just as silly to expect jobs on Monday, as it would be to expect, say, tangible evidence of a lowering in workers' rights had there been a No vote.
Although, on a second's thought, maybe there will be a job or two if the Lisbon Tourist Board cash-in on all the goodwill, ramp up an oul advertising campaign. "Find out what Lisbon's really like!" :p
While the No side focused on the minor reduction of our already miniscule voting weights it took attention away from the fact that Ireland exerts its influence in Europe more through deals and coalitions rather than exerting its voting weight alone. Our continued abaility to pursue and defend our interests relies on the goodwill and sentiment of our partners in Europe. That is not scaremongering, that is reality. It is the same in any boardroom or any committe at any level, you will get more done if you get on well with your fellow members. By rejecting a benign treaty like this we risked pushing ourselves to the periphery at a time when we can afford it least. The No campaign, esentially a bizarre coalition of far left and right wing interests, contorted this treaty and sunk the debate to a low level that required the Yes side to match their appeal to baser instincts and insecurity.
We are 0.8% of Europe. Not even a measly 1%. We have neither power nor influence in the EU now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
There is no "Core", and no "periphery" of the EU. It's a political term with no resonance anywhere beyond Brussels.Quote:
It is the same in any boardroom or any committe at any level, you will get more done if you get on well with your fellow members. By rejecting a benign treaty like this we risked pushing ourselves to the periphery at a time when we can afford it least.
The Lisbon Treaty is not about what we can afford now, it's about Ireland's standing in the EU 5, 10, 15, 20, 50 years and furthur down the line, and how EU decisions affect us then. It's impossible to have any meaningful influence in something when you're 0.8% of it, and less as new countries are admitted.
It is not a benign treaty, it is the EU rulebook for the rest of our life. What they get done by "getting on well" with other members is of no consequence to Mr and Mrs Average. What is, is the lack of sovereignty and respect for popular democracy, and that is why the implications of this treaty differ from all the rest.
Mypost, you're still banging on about 0.8% voting weight as though if it was only just at 1% or at its previous level that makes any practical difference. Our voting weight as it was, is and will be renders us an irrelevance already in a straight vote. You're splitting hairs and you know that. We exert our influence in negotiating away from the voting table.
You should have watched the whole thing so. Shows what a liar he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
England's still paying off its debt from the Napoleonic wars. Can you imagine the chancers here dealing with that kind of deficit?Quote:
Originally Posted by don ramo
Part of the argument the other side made, was that the vote would leave us at the "centre of power" in the EU. It entails our strength there been slashed by 60%. We find it difficult enough to make our voice heard in the EU already, now we've made it more difficult for us to preserve the little influence we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Having goodwill is all very well, but decisions made have to be voted on. Our voting weight's are insignificant compared to bigger states, decisons we had until yesterday, a stronger say in.
I tuned into RTE 1 on Saturday morning to see how things were going with Lisbon, after a little while I was getting really annoyed with all the interviews and what have you so i switched to RTE 2
...Shaun the Sheep was on and the story involved a flock of sheep in one field, and a few pigs in another, separated by a high wall. There was an apple tree on the pigs side. The pigs handed over a full sack to the sheep, who were delighted until they emptied the contents to find only a load of sh!t.
Very appropriate I thought, it summed up my thoughts on the whole Lisbon saga.
Saw some of the photos of the government's side supporters celebrating their "victory" in Dublin Castle last week, waving tricolours. :confused: Brussels won, Dublin lost, but they couldn't even get the right flag out to celebrate.
Incidentally post-vote, there haven't been many jobs created, or investment secured. Instead, Aer Lingus announced 700-odd redundancies, GE Money shed 65, 80 more at Technotree, Gallic Distributors let 30 go, ABB announced another 60 will be on the dole queue next year.
It is fair to assume given the constituency returns, that many of those employees believed FF's promises again and ticked the top box last week. Now, they're seeing very clearly the reality of the outcome.
They had every right to wave the triclour if they felt the result was a good one for Ireland. Especially given that many on the No side very obviously had zero interest in the welfare of our nation.
Incidentally, the few job announcements since the vote are as utterly unrelated to the result as the losses. These decisions are not made overnight.
I do seem to recall reports of there being a slight improvement in the credit agencies view of our credit-worthiness related to the vote though.
People didn't vote on our credit rating, as it means nothing to most people. They voted because they were promised jobs, investment, and economic recovery for a Yes vote. Instead jobs and investment haven't fallen off every tree in Ireland, but been as easy to find as needles in haystacks. Let alone recovery.
When the country's soul and power was handed over to Brussels last week, the victors would be better off waving the blue and yellow flag. They got their result, so waving the Irish flag is rubbing the nose in imo.
Likewise, I haven't yet noticed any of the apocalyptic predictions of the No side taking place yet. How long after the Treaty is ratified should I expect to be conscripted to a European army/have my earnings cut to €1.84 an hour/see corporation tax increased...........?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Lisbon is meaningless. Europe is, was and always has been controlled by the French and the Germans. The EU will go in whatever direction they want, and its as likely that will be backwards as forwards. But make no mistake, we don't count for a damn. We didn't influence anything and we never have. The next important EU decision will be by the next Tory Government in the UK, possibly a referendum as to whether to remain within the EU. Unless we decide to go back to a protectionist De Valera-type economy, we'll be a helpless bystander in that discussion as well.
The whole Lisbon farce (both episodes) was the final nail in the coffin of the hubris and self-importance that surrounded the Celtic Tiger.
Please:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
You really think that UKIP and the British Conservatives give a toss about Ireland?
Is the Treaty in force yet? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
The country was instructed to obey the government, in order to provide jobs and investment, which itself isn't subject to the treaty been enforced. Most people did as they were told. The No side said that jobs and investment wouldn't arise, and surprise surprise, hasn't. :eek:
Yet we were told, that it was our side who were "lieing and scaremongering". :rolleyes:
mypost, I also voted no, but you're really stretching the bounds of credibility with your increasingly embarrassing posts. Two comments in particular, if I may -
So you're saying once it comes into force, then the apocalyptic predictions will come to pass?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
While I agree that the Yes side's claim of jobs and investment were just pandering to people's fears, you simply can't say that your counter-argument (that jobs and investment won't come about) has come to pass because, after a week, we've had no extra jobs. Things simply don't happen immediately. Let's see how things stand in, say, a year's time. By then, it'll be evident if Lisbon was the cure-all the Yes side made it out to be, or if actually the hole we've dug ourselves is one we'll have to lie in a while longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I'd respectfully request that you put a little more thought into your posts rather than jumping to populist, easily-refuted arguments.
* - (the first time; wasn't around the second time, but would still have voted no)
I know it's just a week afterwards, but do you honestly think that argument will be much different after a year? The reality is, there are no jobs, there is no investment, and there is nothing at the moment suggesting that there will be for the foreseeable future. Therefore, the other side's arguments on the issue are, and will be false.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The other side's arguments being false is no justification for stooping to below their level though.
What the hell are you on about!!!! What they do in the Uk is of no concern in an Irish referendum on LisbonQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Your argument was silly - I mean flip the coin - do you think Cowen and co are great patriots and all, what with selling the country down the river (NAMA)