:confused: er, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
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:confused: er, what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
Success is improving and maintaining our showing in Europe each year. While it can be annoying and obsessive, the co-efficient is the only realistic measure of how one country does versus another. For me, when we talk about success we should be looking at about 5 year intervals. Where was the league 10 years ago? Where was it 5 years ago, and where is it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave77
In 2000 Ireland was ranked 41st of the European leagues. This year we were ranked 35th. To me that's an improvement. If we break it further down, then success is climbing the ladder with consistent results every year, not one fantastic year and then 3 terrible years. For the last 4 years we have consistently added 1 point or more to the coefficient. In the previous 5 years, we had 1 year where 1 point or more was added - this is progress and success.
Obviously this isn't enough for Mark12345 and his friends, but we are never going to compete directly with other bigger leagues in Europe we don't have the money or interest in this country. But we're not hte only country in that position. I would imagine that if there is a foot.fr equivalent, there is probably a Marc12345 on there complaining about the standard of Ligue 1 and saying that it's rubbish and they won't do very well in Europe. It's all a matter of perspective and if you judge everything by the top 2/3 leagues then obviously all the rest are going to come up short. The important thing for the LOI is to keep pushing to improve its structures, its quality and its results against other leagues. Ill thought out rants and WUMs of Mark's ilk aren't going to do anything for the league or convince football fans to start following one money making company in England over another one.
Disappointing result. Should have been about 4/5 goals for City. We had all the ball in the first half, creating only 2-3 chances, in the second we absolutely battered them. They are very dangerous team on the counter attack that should not be taken lightly.
Having said that, from what I saw in the second half last night, we have a very good chance of beating them over there. It will be difficult but doable.
Agree with this. Unless they are a completely different team at home our biggest problem will be our own defence. I'm gutted we didn't win this, hit the woodwork three times and had one good peno shout when Healy was brought down (plus a couple of dodgy peno claims;) ). Having said that though we really missed O'Flynn last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by sullanefc
What the likes of Mark12345 fails miserably to see is the total euphoria of seeing your hometown team win a champions leauge game .Heraing that music as the players came out onto the pitch was amazing for me and my fellow " supporters " .Lookin around and seeing family members and friends everywere in the stands is something these clueless people will never understand .Its called pride in were your from and who you are .Now run along the english want your money you foolish boy .
In a nutshell then:
What number of coef points do we need to get in order to be seeded in UEFA Cup and Champions League next year - or where in the standings do we need to be?
What do we have to achieve to start in the second round of these competitons?
Thanks!
Firstly, it is the 2007 rankings that decided our European spots for this year, not last year's rankings - obviously this is so that leagues will know before they begin how many European spots are on offer (with the exception of fair play). Therefore the 2008 ranking of 35th is what will dictate our European qualifiers at the end of this season for the 2009/2010 season.
The Champions will therefore go into QR1 of the CL and by my calculations will probably not be seeded. This of course will depend on the coefficient at the end of this year, but I think that our representatives will end up the top unseeded team. Leaving aside club coefficients - which can of course throw things off, we would need to be in 32nd position to have our champions seeded.
With the new format Uefa Cup, the Cup winners will go into QR2 and the 2nd and 3rd placed teams will go into QR1. By my calculations, both teams in QR1 will be seeded, and the cup winners may just about be seeded - it depends on the regional split and fair play winners I think.
Apart from you being right all the time, whats your point?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uef...id=727066.html
This is the Access List for the UEFA CUP and is compiled before the tournament. The LoI (IRL) finished three clubs below the cut-off for seeding. It is hoped by naturally breaking our seeding IRL improves.
Every country has an average value, if a club does well in Europe it may have value above the Nat. Average (e.g man utd., dynamo kiev and from Iceland FH Hafnarfyjordur) those clubs earn and keep a higher value. Clubs with more modest results in Europe get the value of the National Average. That's why so many clubs share the same value. St. Pat's and Cork City included.
Explanation of which three clubs finished ahead:
Two Moldovan (MDA) and one Lith. (LTU) FC Suduva. The other LTU Ventspils had finished runners-up in their domestic cup and got the seeding from UEFA. FH (ISL) seeding had split the two LTU. Along with these targets Latvia (LVA) are close enough to be in our sights.
Because, at the moment, IRL is in Nth. Europe are ranking needs to move above LVA and LTU for the LoI clubs to edge a seeding. It depends on the Nth. Europe boundary not changing either.
There may be a rumour spread by Bert Kassels that Derry City have a very healthy individual value, above the LoI's average.
(That Access List has two FIN and FH ranked in a lower position than their value. I am presuming a clerical error and the value is correct, they should be placed higher in the table for clarity).
Bigmac.
I would be surprised if we are not seeded in the Champions League next season. We're currently 32nd in the list so even though we are entered in the rounds as 35th we will be 32nd in terms of the coefficient.
We could jump Latvia and lithuania too this year which would certainly make us seeds in Champions league and UEFA.
:confused: Tell me more (I assume you are referring to the club coefficient a club gets when they get into the first round proper of a tournament?)Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
You are missing the simple point Mark.If you don,t support football in your Country then you can't seriously call yourself a football supporter,can you?Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
If you feel sitting at home or in the Pub listening to Andy and Richard qualifies you as one then fair enough but if you are really honest with yourself, you will understand how EL supporters find that view comical.
It is YOUR Countries League, if people like you would follow it then the gates/standard would get nearer to where we are aiming at.
Yes the draw with PSG would get you a point
Results outside the qualifying rounds (i.e. the draw with PSG) are added onto your country coefficient, so Derry would be seeded higher than, say, UCD. It's to separate the likes of Man Utd from Millwall, but isn't much in evidence down our level because we mostly don't get results outside qualifying. It's very handy though; would jump youz up three or four places I'd say.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Thanks Stu, I'm fully up to speed on club coefficients.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I was referring to the "Bert Kassies rumour" point.
Ah, I see.
That's just Harpo's way of talking. ;)
Could be - I definitely hope so. Originally I looked at the draws around us and came up with this prediction. I was looking at 33rd as minimum expected, wiht 32nd possible. Obviously some of that has changed due to first leg results - I didn't expect Llanelli to beat Ventspils or Glentoran to get a draw against Metalurgs. Equally I didn't expect both Hungarian teams to be held to a draw - these results have jumped us ahead of Hungary whom I pinpointed as the country we could get ahead of for 32nd place. We're still a win away from Latvia so we have to hope that Llanelli and Glentoran can help us out again there.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Given the easy Lithuanian draw (and a great performance to beat Stavanger), I don't see us overtaking them this year - they should realistically pick up at least another 2 wins in the 2nd legs which would give them another .666 points with minimum 4 games left in the next round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Apologies higgins is this a part-reply to ORA. There PSG score is part of their individual co-efficient alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
ORA, it's not as healthy as I though but Shels and Derry are above the IRL average. It's like I mentioned in my previous post above. FH Hafnarfyjordur (ISL) got a seeding in the UEFA Cup 'cos of their own efforts.
There is the Nat. Average value which is the majority of clubs and it's a value allocated because most clubs maybe qualify three, two times or less in five years and don't get an opportunity to collect alot of points. Shelbourne FC still and I will show Derry City FC have an individual co-efficients above the national average.
Also I presume, this comes from all match points, 1st round or qualifiers.
UEFA access list from 2007 - the year Derry were last in Europe. UEFA will publish clubs value when they qualify for Europe, (harder to get their figure for when a team is not in Europe that year.)
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...id=551776.html
"IRL1 q1 Derry City FC* 3.145"
"* Shelbourne FC won the title but did not apply to enter the UEFA Champions League after being relegated for financial reasons. Derry are expected to inherit their place in the competition as Irish runners-up. "
(UEFA gave us our own asterisk. I am not doing this to embarass anyone, honest) Please note the low IRL1 position but the higher value beside Derry City, I think it's to easier compare the quality of the individual club. Please note NK Zagreb and FC Kobenhavn aswel. Anyway 3.145 is above the UEFA seeds this year.
But that was one year ago, what shape are Derry in this year?
The foot.ie House Guest Bert Kassels (scroll down to pos. 205)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/...trank2008.html
" 205 Derry City Irl 0.1100 0.4400 0.6050 1.9350 0.3300 3.420
Shelbourne Irl 0.1100 1.4400 0.6050 0.9350 0.3300 3.420 "
"Ireland 0.1100 0.4400 0.6050 0.9350 0.3300 2.420 "
Derry City and Shelbourne will shed the first 0.1100. Hopefully team Ireland will make some progress too. But not all the way up to 3.320, surely?
Also, Shels and Derry have scored every year so I presume you will be due some points for this year also.
I found the UEFA page by searching "Access List 2007" cos I knew that was when Derry were last in Europe. Then looked at pub. dates til summer2007 looked promising.
The Bert Kassels list is a Team Ranking 2008 list but all his numbers come originaly from UEFA, my European protectors of football.
If you need anything clarified let me know.
If you need anything else, ask bigmac. He has a simpler understanding of the co-efficient.
What utter, utter garbage. Possibly the most idiotic argument I've ever heard on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
You've obviously never tried out Current Affairs!Quote:
Originally Posted by thischarmingman
I lurk around Current Affairs sometimes...:oQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I still stand by my first point though.
To follow on from the Coefficient thread. My understanding of it (and I'm open to correction) is that each club is assigned a ranking value based on a combination of their own results and the results of their league in general.
As per the country ranking this goes on a 5 year rolling basis. For individual team coefficients, qualifying rounds don't count - only the first round proper - I don't know how or if this will change when the new format UEFA cup comes into play next year.
The country's coefficient is effectively shared out equally amongst teams - therefore a team entering a European competition this year that did not have any previous experience would be allocated a coefficient ranking of one third of the country's ranking
(this may also change next year when we have 4 teams in the UC, but other countries will also change accordingly.) We can use Derry as an example of a team that has its own coefficient as well:
- 7.332 / 3 = 2.42
- In 06/07 Derry won 3 games and drew one in the first 2 qualifying rounds - they also drew one game in the first round proper.
- Each qualifying win is worth a point, each Q draw .5 of a point
- In the actual rounds, a win is worth 2 points and a draw 1 point
- Derry therefore contributed 4.5 points to the coefficient, (or 1.5 in real terms)
- Of the 4.5 points earned, the 1 point from the 1st round proper is also added to Derry's individual coefficient.
Each team's coefficient is equal to 1/3rd (because we have 3 qualifying teams) of the country's coefficient plus any individual coefficient. In Derry's case this means that while the 06/07 season is still counting towards the ranking, should Derry qualify for Europe, their coefficient will be 1pt larger than the other LOI teams. Had Derry been in Europe this year, they would have been allocated a coefficient of 3.42 and would, as Harpo says, have been seeded in the UC.
Then I had it wrong, I taught it was all matches a club played and not just the bump of the first round proper points.
So bigmac, One Red Army, higgins and pineapple stu had the correct information before me. Sorry for confusing matters.
Fair play to Pat's and Drogs. Pat's, I feel have a foot (and an arm) in the door already, while Drogs have a bit more to do, but if any team can force a 0-0 away from home.......;)
On us last night, we played the wrong tactics for the first hour. Tried to play 'Total Football', but nothing came off and we were punished. When we went at them though, they didn't seem to know how to handle it. If we start over there with the same attitude as we finished the last game with, I have no doubt that we'll go through.
Was at the Cork game and one thing that struck me was the way that Haka played the referee. Every time they were touched they fell to the ground and got their free kick and took the pressure off themselves. With Corks experience I thought they would be well able for this sort of play but the players spent most of the time arguing with the ref. At least Mooney had the intelligence to 'win' us the free kick that lead to our 2nd goal. Will Irish teams ever learn to play this way.
To be perfectly honest I hope not. Its bad enough watching it for the couple of Euro games a year, I'd hate to watch it every weekQuote:
Originally Posted by viagogo
YOU POSTED: What the likes of Mark12345 fails miserably to see is the total euphoria of seeing your hometown team win a champions leauge game .Heraing that music as the players came out onto the pitch was amazing for me and my fellow " supporters " .Lookin around and seeing family members and friends everywere in the stands is something these clueless people will never understand .Its called pride in were your from and who you are .Now run along the english want your money you foolish boy .
......What, you think you're the only one who has ever had those feelings? I know I have felt pride in the teams I've supported, just like most on this board I would suggest, (and pride for LOI teams but a long time ago I must say).
And, just so as you know - the last time this 'foolish boy' gave the English me money was over 20 years ago - I don't go over, full stop. I've lived abroad for two decades and seen football take off in places where it had no tradition, and it has outstripped the LOI in its standards. How can others do it in such a short space of time while we, who have almost a century of tradition behind us, are still languishing in the doldrums. Could it be that the Irish club owners are so entrenched in their ways that they frighten any rich Irishman (and there are plenty of them willing to invest in English clubs) who wants to invest in them?
But the thing that really gets me is that any time you make an obvious statement about the LOI teams you are all of a sudden attacked by a small group who claim you don't know nothin.' Well, what I do know is that the record so far of the Irish teams in Europe has been nothing to write home about, much like previous seasons. And the way it's goin we'll be singing this song in fifty years time unless drastic change occurrs.
How do the attitudes of the present club owners stop somebody from buying a club?Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Which statement? The one about a "miserable" year for Irish clubs is the one I'm disputing - I don't think 2 wins and a draw from our first three games that matter is miserable at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
If you were one of the, admittedly few, regular constructive posters you'd see that nobody is here saying that the EL is the best league in Europe or is fantastically run. We don't have our heads in the sand over the many problems that exist, but neither do we feel the need to celebrate, gloat or exhibit such schadenfreude when a team is knocked out of the InterToto cup on away goals. Are you on the Scottish forums laughing at their league because Hibs got spanked in their tie?
BTW, you didn't just ask a question about EL teams getting to group stages of the CL you said
thus dismissing pretty much any country not ranked in the top 15 or so in Europe - should these leagues not be taken seriously either?Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
you mean to cheat?:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by viagogo
The rest of Europe call it winning a free kick. Honestly why should we play fair when nobody else does it and then we leave the game giving out that the ref was a disgrace. In the 2nd half last Thursday Behan was fouled and all the dope had to do was fall to the ground and Cork would have got a free kick but he kept going and we lost possession. Every one of the Haka players would have fallen there and got their free. Football is a professional sport where winner takes all and you need to do whatever it takes to get the victory.
I'd prefer the honest approach, as I'm sure most others on here would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrank
I agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey4ireland
YOU POSTED: What utter, utter garbage. Possibly the most idiotic argument I've ever heard on this forum.
Stick around a little while longer - I'm sure it'll get better.
try pressing the "Quote" button.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
[QUOTE=bigmac;984422]How do the attitudes of the present club owners stop somebody from buying a club?
If the club owners aren't standing in the way then who is? Did not JP McManus want to invest in Irish football, and Magnier also, and God knows I'm sure there quite a few other money men. The way I understand it there are one too many club boards and owners unwilling to stand aside and let in the big money.
That's what I hear and it could be a load of bullocks, but on the evidence of the lack of progress with EL clubs (take Shelbourne and Dublin City for example a few years back - if two very upwardly mobile clubs can just fold like that, ok Shels are still goin', then how strong is the league?) then I don't believe its too far off the mark.
Another disappointment for me is the cooling off of the talk about the proposed All-Ireland League. It was all the rage a couple of months ago, but now there isn't much talk about it. That would be a huge step forward IMO and would open the door to a million possibilites (if only everyone got behind it in the South instead of seeing the cup half empty).
I'm all for the betterment of the EL, and maybe I come across in a negative way, but just seeing failure after failure every year (and only holding the upper hand in one tie against Latvian/Estonian opposition is not progress) is very hard to take. There has to be a genuine target for Irish clubs in Europe, or the formation of an All-Ireland League - that would be real progress IMHO.
Take it easy!
SLigo 1-0
Peers
You couldn't be further from the truth. Every single club would accept large investment, if it was for the good of the club. All of them, even the member run clubsQuote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
How are the two related? You picked two clubs that were most open to investment and showed how it doesn't work. Every club had the same ambitions as Shels and Dublin City. Every single club wants to be full time and competing for leagues and playing in europe every year. Just because thye overspent the most doesn't mean that they were most ambitious.Quote:
That's what I hear and it could be a load of bullocks, but on the evidence of the lack of progress with EL clubs (take Shelbourne and Dublin City for example a few years back - if two very upwardly mobile clubs can just fold like that, ok Shels are still goin', then how strong is the league?) then I don't believe its too far off the mark.
Maybe you should going to the games so. If you don't, you can't comment on anything about the league. Enjoy watching the telly...Quote:
I'm all for the betterment of the EL
There is it, summed up in one comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Sligo 2-0
Curran