With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
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With Finnan and A O'Brien's retirement (I personally think Finnan will return) I'd take Baird also as we don't have much else to choose from. Davis and Healy are worth a place on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I think you've already approached Baird about playing for RoI.
He declined :)
Read carefully what I actually posted. I clearly acknowledged that ROI has a significantly stronger squad than NI (a question of numbers, essentially). However, I said that the gap between our respective First XI's is not so wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by carloz
[Oh and btw, amongst the "couple" of NI players I would give or take are George McCartney (one of the better LB's in the EPL) and Damien Johnson (approaching 300 EPL/International appearances, and Stephen Kelly's Club Captain). Or maybe even Kyle Lafferty, who at 20 already has an identical scoring record to that of Kevin Doyle (5 in 16 caps)]
If I am wearing tinted glasses - and let's face it, most fans are partial - then I may not be the only one. The FIFA rankings are worked out over a rolling four year period. NI are ahead for the recent "number of months" after having first caught up through consistently outperforming ROI over the past three years. During that period we have gained competitive victories over ranking sides England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. When did ROI last achieve a comparable result? Why are ROI at their lowest level since early McCarthy? Might not the two be linked?Quote:
Originally Posted by carloz
Never mind "anybody". Try giving the Lists to Luis Aragones, Morton Olsen or Lars Lagerbeck. Then try Angelos Anastasiadis or Giampaolo Mazza...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by carloz
I would argue that we have the potential to be second rate if we really go for it. So there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
EG you definitely are wearing Rose coloured glasses. You consistently out performed us for possibly 6 months in those three years. Where did you finish in your last WC qualification campaign? THe correct answer is nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Didn't Wales hammer you not too long ago yes that same Wales we took 4 points off in our last qualification? Consistently outperformed us for 3 years? Ha ha.
What's the Iceland and Latvian manager's name again?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think that's a fair assessment. There are some players that can add to our squad but there aren't players in the NI squad that are clearly better than what we already have. Going back to the article and O'Neill's suggestion, there currently doesn't exist any sporting justification for unifying the two sides. Maybe this existed in the past but it doesn't exist at this moment in time. Joining force wouldn't make a "super-side".Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
You should look up our recent results against these sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
If you're going to boast about friendlies, why not mention your regular draws with Brazil?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Your best win in a competitive game in the last six years was against Georgia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I'm not boosting about anything. EG thought it fit that we should ask Martin Olsen and Lars Lagerbäck about how good NI is and I'm just pointing out that neither Denmark or Sweden have fond memories of playing against us. Frankly, I know how good both Denmark and Sweden are - and results against them are nothing to highlight.
If you mean away from home you're probably correct. BTW who have NI beaten away from home within recent memory???Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
You're "wrong" in considering that football is played on paper, rather than grass! On paper, Schevchenko is a "better" player than e.g. Drogba. But on grass Drogba is incomparably better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
You may also be wrong in confusing club form with international form. For example, Robbie Keane is an incomparably better all round player than David Healy in every respect (bar, perhaps, pure finishing). But in 79 appearances during 10 years when ROI have mostly been the stronger side, Keane has scored 32 goals i.e. 1 every 2.47 games. Whereas, Healy has scored 34 in 64 i.e. 1 every 1.88 games.
I'm still not claiming you should pick Healy ahead of Keane, but if you don't think his presence on the bench would be a significant boost to any combined team, then you're blind. And if ever Keane were absent, in a straight choice between Healy and Kevin Doyle, it's "no contest".
P.S. On a technical point, Evans was only LB because George McCartney of West Ham pulled out on the morning of the game. In any combined team, McCartney would have to play LB, leaving either Evans or Hughes to partner (the outstanding) Richard Dunne at Centre Back.
I meant overall. Your home wins in the last three competitions have been against Slovakia, Cyprus, Wales, Georgia, Faeroes and San Marino.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
We beat Finland last season in a friendly but yes, our away form in qualifiers is pretty bad. Just like yours.
But as you have pointed out in the past, Sanchez got the best out of Healy because he played a target man beside him - Quinn or Lafferty. Likewise Keane is a "better player" playing off a target man - something that hasn't happened in an Irish shirt over the last few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think Healy is secure in the fact that there's nobody that going to replace him in the NI team. It's the classic big fish in the small pond syndrome. There would be a lot more competition in an United Ireland team, and judging by Healy club problems, I think this extra competition would negatively impact on Healy. He is dependent on playing off a target man so it's not the case of Healy is better than Doyle, his position in the team would be dependent on what other players are also picked.
Baird has actually been very poor for NI over the last 18 months, struggling mostly at Right Back.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
His natural position is Centre Back, where he was truly excellent for Southampton last season (Players and Fans POTY). However, for NI, our Captain Aaron Hughes is a fixture and I now believe Jonny Evans should be CB alongside him.
As regards RB, before a serious injury put him out for the last 6 months, Michael Duff was playing very well for NI. On which form, he would deserve a place ahead of (the error-prone) Stephen Kelly imo. (Obviously Finnan would have been a shoo-in had he not retired)
As for Davis, I agree his form suffered recently for both club and country. But the Steven Davis of two years ago at Villa, or the last three months at Rangers, would regularly get a start, esp when you consider how injury-prone the two Reids are, or how bonkers Stephen Ireland is.
Plenty thought Healy should be dropped when we and he went two years and 14 games without a goal. And the greater competition thing can be overstated- Kevin Kilbane has well over 50 caps despite being constantly derided by a large proportion of your fans. Saying he's dependent is a bit odd- we play to our strengths, he scores plenty of goals. You seemingly don't, and underachieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Somewhat disingenuous, since you also know the difference between Sweden (esp) and Denmarks friendly results (ROI) when compared with their competitive results (NI).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Sweden friendly record is poor - for a variety of reasons. But the side they put out against us was the planned starting eleven for their World Cup opening match against Trinidad. That game was the dress rehearsal. But I'm sure I've told you this before. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think that was his point i.e. nothing to highlight. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I'd have to agree healys finishing is far better than keanes though. Per game for NI though, how many goals to shots on target does he score, and can anyone point out the same stat for keane. Keane tends to miss quite a few before a goal, whereas I have a feeling healy doesn't miss so many before he scores therefore adding to the fact he is a better finisher.
Then in any combined team, the obvious thing would be to pick Lafferty alongside Keane, since ROI don't really have a player of the Target Man/Lafferty type.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
(Although Alan Lee at Ipswich may fit the bill? If so, it may not be coincidence that Jim Magilton would love to buy Healy, if he could afford him)
If you pick Healy and create chances for him, he will score. I freely acknowledge that Keane is much the better player than Healy and Doyle is more accomplished than Lafferty (though they're such different types it's hard to compare).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
But since Lafferty made his NI debut, he and Healy have consistently played better and scored far more goals than Keane and Doyle.
It's the old dilemma of pedigree over performance. I understand perfectly why ROI fans look to the former and NI fans to the latter.
What would Jack Charlton have done, I wonder? Perhaps Liam Brady or David O'Leary could tell us....;)
Brady is too busy sulking after the other pundits ridiculed his boss Wenger on RTE last night ;)
There's a YT video for those who missed it.
Come off it EG. Anyone bar NI fans would consider Doyle to be a better player than Healy and a far better player than Lafferty (wasn't he Championship player of the season at a similar age to the age Lafferty is now).Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The thing is we don't know how good the Keane/Doyle partnership is because that partnership has yet to be coached. And further to that we don't know if Keane/Doyle is our best partnership. 10 or so strikers have been called up for this squad get together in Portugal possibly because of this.
Isn't Doyle's record this season (five Prem goals for Reading) pretty ordinary? Barely better than Healy's four. He hardly stands out.
IFK- come off it, we realise Steve Staunton was a poor manager but you're not seriously suggesting they got NO coaching? ;)
Doyle was still in Ireland when the age Lafferty is now.
This season it is but I think he's played out on the right a fair bit this season if I'm not mistaken. However, Doyle has proved that he can cut it in the Premiership last season and Healy hasn't (at least yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
So we're agreed. Both are mediocre Prem strikers. Doyle gets shunted to midfield, Healy to the bench.
I quite like Doyle actually, normally looks lively on MotD. But he needs to get more goals next term, or face a drop down to D2.
IMO Stan's greatest failing was his lack of communication skills. He's just not an effective communicator. I don't know Stan personally but looking back on his time as manager he always looked very uncomfortable talking in public and what he had to say was a collection of cliches that were never delivered with any conviction. So whilst Stan was out on the training field doing his thing and in his mind coaching the players, whether the players were actually being coached is very much open to question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
You've certainly hit the target there, Paul!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
The Statistics from Euro2008 are very revealing. Obviously, DH was top scorer with 13 in 12 games (1063 mins). Note that these were evenly divided between 7 in 6 games against the minors (Liechtenstein, Latvia and Iceland) and 6 in 6 against Sweden, Denmark and Spain:
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...=gs/index.html
By contrast Keane scored 4 goals (989 mins) and Doyle 4 (676 mins)
Healy was also 3rd highest in the number of shots on goal (i.e. saved), with 24. This was more than Keane (13) and Doyle (8) combined.
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...sg/page=2.html
Yet when it came to Shots Wide, Healy was only 6= in the list, with 13 - the same as Keane. Doyle had 7, in much less game-time than either. This is a testament to Healy's accuracy.
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...=sw/index.html
(Zinedine Kilbane had 12 shots off target, btw! :eek:)
Perhaps as interesting is the number of offsides incurred:
Healy was way out in front (literally!) on 24. Normally, if such a player weren't scoring (or at least getting shots off), you'd say he was stupid/wasteful. But for me, this demonstrates how incredibly hard the wee man works - he's permanently on the defender's shoulder, pushing, pushing pushing, until his chance comes. (I think he scored five one-on-ones against the keeper after outstripping the defence, which shows great timing for one who's not lightening quick).
By contrast, Keane was offside just 7 times and Doyle 6. And since neither is a lazy-arse, this indicates that they spent far too much time playing far too deep.
(Note how Lafferty was also caught offside 6 times, despite being a target man and not playing half the games)
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...t=o/index.html
The Fouls Suffered Table is also illuminating. You expect a dribbler like Ronaldo or Duff to get fouled frequently. But Healy was 5th on 28, with Lafferty on 14 (42 fouls suffered in total). Whereas Keane was fouled 19 times and Doyle 8 (27). Since Healy and Laff both push up continuously, this gains NI plenty of free-kick possession in the opposition's half.
And the Fouls Committed Table also tells a story. Both Healy and Laff are right up there on the first page with 22 each! Neither is a dirty player (though Laff is very raw and being 6'4", refs are suspicious of him) and they hardly got booked. What this means, therefore, is that they disrupt the opposition where they can't hurt NI i.e. in the opposition's own half. Whereas Keane (18) and Doyle (8) don't look to have been nearly as big a nuisance.
Further, NI's 3rd choice forward, Feeney, committed 13 fouls in 412 mins, the same number as our two most attacking midfielders, Gillespie (13 in 789 mins) and Davis (13 in 1069 mins). By contrast, our deepest/defensive midfielder, Clingan, committed just 8 fouls in 866 mins. This shows just how hard they all worked to protect the defence. [Interestingly, ROI's "foulingest" player was Centre Half Richard Dunne, also on 22, which for a player of his class, suggests he had a hell of a lot of defending to do!]
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...=fc/index.html
Finally, when you look at the overall Team Statistics, NI are generally fairly average, alongside ROI:
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...eam/index.html
The one glaring exception, however, is the number of Offsides committed:
NI were 3rd (of 50 teams), having been caught offside 46 times. Whereas, ROI were 40th, penalised just 21 times:
http://en.euro2008.uefa.com/tourname...t=o/index.html
It's a simple game, really. First get the ball into your opponent's half, where they can't hurt you. Then get it up to your forwards, where you can hurt them. Finally, if you lose the ball, do it up front, then don't let the opposition out of their own half with it.
Above all, if you give it to Healy, he will score!
On club form, of course. But this whole thread is discussing their merits as international players.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Lafferty (DOB 16/09/87) was 20 last September. Doyle (DOB 18/09/83) was 24 the same month.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
When Doyle signed for Reading in June 2005, he was already nearly 22, having been full-time with Cork for a period before that.
Meanwhile, Lafferty was still playing in Youth Tournaments in NI.
Anyone want to pick their best All Ireland 11.
Just for curiousity value sake :)
From the Republic's team
IŽd only guarentee Given, Dunne, Andy Reid and Keane a place.
Possibly Steven Reid and possibly Duff, both depending on form and depending on what NI had available.
where is it?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Sorry, I forgot the details for the Brady/ Dunphy video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTGmAZ0k4M
how come i can never find these?! the search function on youtube is crap i think.
the best football team in which country?! does souness know where he is?!
Brady v Dunphy - Id happily watch that type of punditry for the CL games rather than Sky or ITV!!!!
ER - great stats very interesting stuff - but by fcuk youve got too much time on your hands!!!
What would google know about searching, eh? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It's an intersting page for the Euro statistics.
The one missing that tells a story is the activity of the goalie.
Hard to remember that we did anything of substance in our worst campaign in yonks.
Even with our absolute worst performance in 25 years we still managed more ball possession and won 30% more corners that NI who had their best campaign, since 1980?.
All is not bleak folks .)
and no need to retort that we had 2 games against San Marino :)
It was a long time ago, but I think we might have done slightly better in both 1982 and 1986 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
And don't forget we were a close second place in 1984 after beating West Germany home and away.
It was certainly our best campaign since 1996.
I love these discussions where ROI fans discuss the merits of an All Ireland team, and then proceed to tell us Nordies why our players aren't good enough to get into such a side.:D
I'll stick with Northern Ireland, thanks all the same - for better, or worse.;)
My team if we were united:
--------------------Given-----------------
Finnan/Hughes--Dunne--Evans---McCartney
McGeady-----S.Reid--A. Reid-----Hunt
-----------Keane-----Healy--------
Now, I admit I am not the most knowledgeable guy on players from the North, but that is what my team would look like. That said, I have my doubts about a Healy and Keane partnership, and would gladly drop either for a target man to give our team an aerial option.
GivenQuote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Finnan/McCartney Dunne Evans O'Se
McGeady S Reid A Reid Duff
Keane Healy/Doyle
Difficult choice between Healy and Doyle both are'nt exactley setting the world alight. Overall fairly solid
Stephen Ireland just misses out due to Andy Reids club form
:confused:
I think the All Ireland 11 might have looked better in another era:)
I think i'd examine the idea for an Ireland league, that that would have more benefit for local Irish soccer than messing about with the national teams.
Many of us 'Nordies' have always followed Ireland, so its the best eleven for us, North,South,East or West.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
We don't mind if our players hail from Belfast, Cork, Dublin, Derry, Galway, Lurgan, Limerick or wherever - Its about success and qualifying for major tournaments.
Like my fellow 'Nordies', O'Neill, Jennings, Dougan, Lennon & Best, i would like to see an all Ireland team, but for now we are happy with our senior & underage teams being represented by players from all parts of the Island.
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. Don't you wish you'd been born Brazilian then? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
You see, for this Irish football fan, it's not, nor ever has been, about "success", or "qualifying". Which is why I've followed my team when we couldn't buy a goal, never mind a win. When we were an International laughing stock. When we couldn't play our "home" games at home. When our players were an embarrassment on the pitch and some of our fans an even worse one on the terraces. It's why, when we did get back home, and I was overseas, I still tried to get back when I could - even after the humiliation of getting humped 4-0 by our friends from South of the border.
Sure, if I'd really wanted "success", or even mere "qualification", maybe a "united" Ireland team might do the trick more often - though I notice how quiet advocates of such a dream remain when the record of the united Germany is pointed out to them (Post #116). But why stop there? Why don't I support England, for instance? After all, I've lived most of my adult life here and my club team is English. Hell, even my other half is English, so I must qualify somehow. Or how about a United Kingdom team? Dammit, I wouldn't even have to change my Passport!
But no, maybe I'll choose the obvious alternative; after all, shoving hot needles in your eyes can't be that bad (at least not after you've suffered the sight of Peter Rafferty in a Green shirt....)
But what about you, CDG? I must say, I'm worried about you. You see, I'm not just old enough to remember when my team had qualified for three World Cups before half your lot had even visited the Irish Embassy in London to apply for their first (second?) Passport.
That also makes me old enough to remember when your team went exactly 6 years without a home win, including four and a half years without a win of any kind, until a half-assed Iranian team saved your blushes on a tour/pis s-up in Brazil!
So what will you do when the tide turns, as history tells us it surely will? Who will you follow then for your "fix" of success and qualification? Manchester United, I suppose...
Anyhow, there's no hurry with the reply. In the meantime, here's something you might like to take into account whilst pondering:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ra...ion=0&rank=168
Don't worry, you're still on Page 1. For the moment. :)
All Ireland 11Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
1:Given
2:Finnan
3:Kelly
4Dunne
5:O' Shea
6:Carsley
7:S Reid
8:Mc Geady
9:Healy
10:Keane
11Duff...
Need I say more?? :D
Nice try, but I suspect Sir David might have something even more pressing to do that day, like washing his hair, or re-arranging his sock drawer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pike B
That's if he's not too busy receiving another Award from the President (that's Platini, not McAleese, btw):
http://www.uefa.com/magazine/news/ki...id=676692.html