Giving how they have gone into government with no assurances on anything - even less than I thought they'd get - I think its pretty safe to say they'll acheve nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
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Giving how they have gone into government with no assurances on anything - even less than I thought they'd get - I think its pretty safe to say they'll acheve nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
That's irrelevant unless the Greens suddenly go on a mass splurge at the next election and go bankrupt. Maybe First Division/Premier Division would have been a better comparison, but it's still valid to show the folly of people suggesting the Greens should lie in wait for a few decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
No one is saying they should lie in wait. I'm saying they should actively build, using the opposition benches as a platform to forward the struggles on the ground. If the Labour Party had done this two decades ago they would be the irrelivance they are today. A decade is a pretty short time in politics. As it is they get nothing and will get kicked for it at the next election.
Actively build for what though?
What have they been doing the past however many years they've been around? No point actively building for something if you're going to turn that something down when it happens.
There's no reason why you can't actively build your party while in government.
It's probably harder to do because they'll be expected to produce results where they only had to produce talk before but if they're not up to that job now, there's no reason to think that they will be after another 25 years.
You've used the "struggles on the ground" phrase twice now, coupled with buzzwords like "grassroots achievements" and the like...what exactly does this mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
You are clearly trying to reverse-justify what the Greens have done through the goals of the Socialist Party (who have little choice other than grassroots, given the election result).
A decade is an age in politics, particularly in proportional representation. Its at least two Governments. As an example, we've seen the rise and fall of the PDs, all in the last decade.
But the fundamental issue you, and many else on here, are ignoring, is that whilst the Greens may be even money to run straight into the role of FF scapegoats (as previously occupied by PDs), had they chosen the easy route of sticking to their principles in opposition, many voters, such as myself, would have questioned whether they were ever fit to govern. As WAR and Poor Student said above, for a party whose core policies are built on the environment and climate change not to go into Government at this particular time (and turn down the Environment portfolio), would be tantamount to political suicide.
So by represent me you mean in power? In that case I'd vote all FF so my representative isn't in opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
WeareRovers, I didn't say that it was going against the wishes of their supporters. However, I believe for a lot of them it probably will.
Despite not alligning themselves with FG/Lab, I suspect one or two of their seats owe to rainbow transfers.
Greens obviously having a big impact on FF :rolleyes: Wicklows Biggest Dick
At least he's been demoted, to the completely rubbish title of "super junior" minister for European Affairs (a title he held before)
Even if we had won two seats, or even four our strategy would not change. Our support comes from what we do in the communities and in the unions. For example, Joe got elected because we led the successful anti-water charges struggle. We organised networks in the communities particularly in Fingal and most of these people remain supporters and many of them help out with election campaigns. The GAMA struggle was an example of how we actually use our Dail seat. Joe used Dail privelege to put the GAMA controversy in the public domain. Yet first and foremost we organised those workers into a strike committee and consistantly assisted their strike. The abolition of the water charges when we had no seats, The Gama victory when we had one and the numerous smaller campaigns we were involved in, were bigger achievements than the Greens have ever had with all their seats. In fact they were bigger achievements than the entire opposition put together.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
So if the Greens were serious about building from the ground, they would be actively involved in things like the Save Tara campaign, the Anti War movement, Shell to Sea, instead of making laudable statements at their conference or from Dail seats which they simply turn around and discard once they sniff the wet crotch of power.
What utter nonsense. Have you any concept of parliamentary democracy? None of the above campaigns have achieved anything - there's still a war in Iraq, Shell are still going to build onshore and the M3 is going ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
The Greens can actually make real advancements on their agenda in government. As I keep asking is that not the the point of entering politics in the first place.
The wacko left including the SP, Patricia McKenna and all the other loons are afraid of responsibility and would rather carp from the sidelines.
The SP tactic of 'actively building', 'working with the grassroots' etc are time-honoured Trot tactics and achieve nothing. But we've been down that road before.
KOH
Yes well I'd expect that sort of nonsense from you. I've already pointed to successful extra parliamentary campaigns. I've discussed at length how we have built support on other threads. A party of the size of the greens could make a significant impact on the campaigns I mentioned if they adopted fight to win tactics. Obviously they will never do that.
As for my concept of parliamentary democracy, its not very democratic. You get to vote for someone once every five years and most of the options are the same. Building a revolutionary organisation is a long hard slog that is not for the easily bored or the easily discouraged. It is the case that this side of a revolutionary situation the revolutionaries will be a minority. However it is our task to make that minority a significant one which is respected among the working class. You cannot deny that we have had some success in this respect. Despite detractors like yourself we will not be deterred from the task we have set ourselves.
As Jim Connell wrote:
"Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here!"
LOL :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Would that be De Revolution as coined by Bertie 'Irelands only Socialist' in Ireland? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
The people I feel really sorry for, are the currently unemployed, as Martin Clueless Cullen, is their new Minister. The gobshi, will probably ask for a decrease in the Social Welfare Payment next year, due to "more challenging economic times". :rolleyes:
I love the name in the link: ...roche-signed-order-to-destroy-monument-701971.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Once you've seen one ruin you've seen them all. Its standard practice to excavate any finds anyway so I don't see anything new here.
Do we have to preserve every ruin we find? How could there be anything built?
:confused:
I think Roche is a Dick but he made the correct decision this time. If the Greens were so concerned they would not have elected FF to government.
That's a bit trite Pete. We don't have to preserve everything we find but it's worth baring a couple of things in mindQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
* this is a hugely important and unique site. It's not like a Norman castle or similar where there are plenty of other examples out there.
* Archeology can only be done properly -not quickly.
A colleague at work who is Italian said they just build over any archeological sites now as they have examples of everything already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
I assume Roche received advise from experienced respected Archeologists already anyway. Protesters want work stopped on all 38 sites for Independent assessment. I would be much more receptive of their arguments if they said one or two sites were important. All those 38 sites will be excavated & remains stored and locked in a warehouse never to be seen again anyway.
:rolleyes:
Like I said we don't have other examples remotely comparable with this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Generous assumption to make about anyone in an administration that forked out fifty million on unusable voting machines and did hopelessly conservative "back of an envelope" estimations on how much it'd cost to finance a vanity project stadium that thankfully never got built.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
well some of those protesters will see it all as one large site rather than a bunch of small ones. Independent assessment? I'd need a definition of what'd constitute an Independent Assessment. Provided there isn't a suspicion that whoever is assessing the place at the moment isn't being paid to tell the government what they want to hear I'm happy to take them at their word.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Would you build a motorway through Stonehenge?
In terms of archaelogical significance this whole complex is stonehenge x 10.
They are not building a Motorway over the Hill of Tara, its just a road about a mile away. That is about 12-15 football pitches.
No one has been talking about Tara until a couple of years ago. Sure there is already a road going through it? Why suddenly the interest.
The voters in Meath clearly want the motorway as they voted in FF TDs. The Green Party clearly did not care enough about otherwise would have made it a condition of government to stop it. Its very naive to think that Gormley did not know Dick Roche had or would sign that order. Do you really think FF would try to pull a fast one & risk collapsing the government over the route of a road? All legal challenges have failed.
pete, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use that kind of argument on Foot.ie. We decided when setting up this forum that we were going to try to have a higher level of debate than elsewhere, but this is a Star-level argument; an insult to your own intelligence, never mind everyone else's. Use it on the Politics forum on Boards if you like, but not here please.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
adam
That statement displays a lack of knowledge about the subject. It is just not about the Hill of Tara, it is a whole complex of archaelogical monuments between the Hill of Tara and the Skryne Hill. Look at the map here:Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
http://www.nuigalway.ie/faculties_de...y/Tara_M3.html
There is a huge difference between the current road that follows the topography and a motorway complete with interchanges.Quote:
Sure there is already a road going through it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
How long ago was the Water Rates protest. IMO the Socialist party have gone backwards. Yes they organised a great campaign for the water rates and Joe Higgins exposed the greed of employers in paying below the going rate to vulnerable workers. These were great achievements yet you don't have a seat in the Dail. It can't all be put down to gerrymandering. Admittedly you are a smaller party than the so called mainstream parties but tell me this where does Clare Daly hold her clinics. I've no doubt that your party would far better represent the working class than the Labour Party but I think some of your more extreme idealogy frightens off people therefore you'll continue pi@@@ng into the wind. The Celtic Tiger has you fcuked.
So I am I right in thinking that this new Government will be made up of FF-Greens-PDs that sounds suspiciously like a rainbow government which FF warned would not be stable and therefore could not rule effectively!
I always thought Joe Higgins was a legend regardless of his politics he seemed to be the only effective opposition in the Dail IMHO.
Also not every one in Ireland has benefitted from the Celtic Tiger if i remember correctly from sociology Ireland has one of the highest percentages of pepole living in poverty amongst western European nations i think it was almost double the average rate of poverty.
She is very contactable and does a lot of parish pump issues even if they are tedious. On the ideology front, I disagree with that. Look at the election results of the People Before Profit/SWP crowd. Other than Boyd Barrett who did well on the basis of a save the sea front campaign, they fared miserably and they quite deliberately don't mention the "S-Word".Quote:
Originally Posted by onceahoop
It's FF & Greens, + Mary Harney in the Iraq, sorry health portfolio.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by SolitudeRed
Aye thats right Mary Harney has made a return to the health ministry must be cos she did such a good job in her first stint in that job:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
who is goin to be the Tánaiste then? I presume it will be someone from the Greens as they are the second biggest party in the Coalition.
Brian Cowen is.Quote:
Originally Posted by SolitudeRed
You missed out the FF gene pool Independent, the FG gene pool Independent, the Socialist gene pool Independent, and the Tom from Father Ted gene pool Independent. How's that for a Dolly Mixture??Quote:
Originally Posted by SolitudeRed
I lived in Swords from 2001 to 2006 and I can't speak highly enough of Clare Daly and the Socialist Pary in relation to how she dealt with local issues for the Rivervalley Area.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
83 Acres of land behind our housing estate were earmarked for redevelopment on the Fingal Development plan. A residential zoning would have had huge adverse implications for all Residents within the area. An overwhelming majority of Residents did not want this development for very legitimate reasons. The already strained infra-structure of the area would not have coped with yet more housing.
All local politicians were lobbyed to represent the Residents wishes and vote to zone the area as "Greenbelt" at the Development Plan Meeting.
Fianna Fail, Fianna Gael and the PD's completely ignored the wishes of the residents - despite many letters, E-Mails etc outlining our concerns - and attempted to usher in a Residential Zoning at all cost.
Clare Daly led the campaign to zone the area green belt and gained the support of Labour, the Greens and some independents.
Only for Clare's total commitment to the cause - we'd have lost. Clare was always contactable and updated the Residents every step of the way. I found her attitude a complete breath of fresh air in contrast to my dealings with Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael. Very glad to say the result was a "green belt" rezoning.
Just to add - I've no political affiliations whatsoever but the above is an honest assessment of what Clare achieved for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolitudeRed
That's the bit that really pees me off. Mary Harney and her party are a national menace. They received a good old fashioned kicking from the electorate at the polls, and still she winds up back in government free to continue with her privatisation of the health service. Grrrr..
As for the Greens. I think they will live to regret this. The fact that the roads programme was taken away from the Dept of Transport before they were allowed near it shows how much influence they'll be permitted to have. Dick Roche signing the go ahead for the motorway before he left office is another. On the other hand, the papers will jump all over them every time they get a chance to portray them as having "sold out". It's already started, with reports that the ministers who cycled to work the other day were followed by gardai in empty state cars (question, how were the cars empty if there were gardai in them, or perhaps state cars come in "Knight Rider" mode now ?) Anway, I've no idea how much truth there is in that story - I think the Greens have denied it - but they had better get used to it, because there's a lot more to come I think.
Not disagreeing with your opinion TonyD, but just to point out that National Roads was already under the Dept of Transport, all that was moved from Environment to Transport last week was responsibility for non-National roads.
The whole valley is a treasure trove, not just the hill. They are actually going right through a henge that was discovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Good discussion on this on Prime Time last night.
I think the media & the opposition will make life very difficult for the Green Party as they will challenge their decisions against their Election policies.
FF could not have arrange this better as they have given the contentious Ministries to their coalition partners. You've got to respect the mastery behind this or else the stupidity of the electorate. The PDs get hammered at the polls, FF bring them back into government & all criticism of Health privatisation directed at the PDs & FF immune to opposition...
:cool: :rolleyes:
John Bowman informs Dempsey that the old Navan rail line was built in 3 years so asks him how long for the new one. Dempsey says 2015. :eek:
It was suggested that rail lines should be built alongside the new motorway which I agree with as that is common in Europe although probably nor for private toll roads.
The Canadian Pacific railway only took 4 years to build (1881-1885)
It links Montreal and Vancouver. At this rate the Navan line will take as long as the Trans Siberian.
I thought last nights primetime was a real eye-opener in regards to the complete lack of any moral backbone within FF. Dempsey was actually laughing at the entire nod'n'wink nature of the relationship with Bev Flynn and the way they've sh1t on their own people in Mayo to get her back on board.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
On the upside -I would totally give Sarah Carey one. Mmmmm-Mmmm. She can take my argument apart anytime that suits her.:cool:
I would never defend the incompetence or underhand dealings of the NRA I just raised above that while people may complain about the decision it was unlikely it was important enough to change votesQuote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
She likes blue shirts too. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Fair enough :o That'll teach me to skim newspaper reports. Anyhow, my basic point still stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc