[QUOTE=NeilMcD]So O leary didn't walk out on Ireland???!??!Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
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[QUOTE=NeilMcD]So O leary didn't walk out on Ireland???!??!Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
That's a fair enough point, Ridsdale is held responsible for the financial mess, the £120m figure is anyway an exaggeration, more like £60m spending, net.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
But imo it did get to the stage where there was neither rhyme nor reason to his signings. Into an already bloated unbalanced squad, he signs an off form Fowler and an average Johnson for ridiculuos money.
At the end O'Leary was just as bankrupt a manager as the club was financially.
Maybe O'Leary is an absolute self absorbed moron as in can't understand problems outside his own radar, even when the financial situation was explained repeatedly in graphic detail he throws a public fit over the proposed sale of Ferdinand and maybe Viduka for very good money.Then he gets the sack.
I never said he did not or did not, I dont know the private conversations between O Leary and Charlton and I dont have an opinion on that case.
In addition I prove to you with hards facts that Leeds are not naturally a top 6 club with historic records rather than potential i.e size of the city etc. So what happens you now move onto the Charlton O Leary feud something which I have no comment to make on and is not part of the discussion regarding O Leary as a manager of Leeds and Aston Villa.
actually the only hard facts you quoted placed Leeds as one of the top sides - joint top with a few others (one mentioned, Huddersfield would not be on a par)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
No that is only if you take League titles as your only judge. Whereas on a consistant basis they have finished inside the top 6 of the top league about %15 of the time. Also they have spent 30% of their time outside the top division. Roughly 18% of their top 6 finishes have come due to David O leary. I
Sorry Leeds are not joint top with anybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
Liverpool are top on their own with 18 League titles
Man Utd are 2nd
Arsenal are 3rd.
who probably had roughly 99% of their all time playing budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Where are you getting the figure off 99% from then.
Sorry - I'm getting confused ... why are we talking about percentages? And what does it have to do with O'Leary?
Just showing that Leeds are not a club with a tradition of finishing in the top 6 on a consistant basis with the exceptions of the Revie Era and the O Leary reign.
Neil you should be better informed than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Both characters gave their account of the phonecalls, it's public knowledge, it's been well documented.
It's only a matter of opinion on how you analyse the affair.
Ok ... I'm with you now!
Just out of interest, you're saying that the money that is spent on a team should bear no relation to judging how good its manager is. Personally, I've always believed that you need to measure how 'good' a manager / team is by weighing up the number of trophies they win against the amount of money spent on that team. Based on that formula you can see why I think little of O'Leary as a manager because he spent a collossal amount (which was admittedly sanctioned by someone else but it meant he had some very talented players at his disposal) and yet he did not win anything.
Where do you stand on Mourinho? If he was the manager of a club like Wigan or Sunderland, do you think he would win any trophies with them?
Sorry I can be informed in relation to what I choose to be informed about. I am not going to put myself on the line and comment on an issue that I do not have strong views upon and one which I would not be as informed about as maybe I should be to post an opinion on it. That is my choice, one does not have to hold an opinion on every aspect of Irish football.
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Originally Posted by Emmet
Well also which is better finishing 4 or winning the FA Cup. Also I never said it should bear no relation, check my posts I did not say that. Also I tried to explain in this case that the fees were not O Learys doing, he picked the players and the 2 chairman decided upon the fees and the wages. A lot of the high fees and wages were to do with Risdales inability to negotiate properly. O Leary is not blameless in the episode and he does have faults and he is not a great manager. But he is not a terrible manager either and he is not the main culprit of the reason leeds have gone down a division or ended up in the state they did.
Mourinhio won the European Cup with Porto hardly a rich club in European terms and he did well with lower league clubs in Portugal so I think that he is a manager who can get success at most levels of the game. I do not think Sunderland are in a position to be winning trophies at the moment with the exception of the League Championship.
What did you mean by this then?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I meant what it says, it is not always a good baromter sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. There are other circumstances what you must look into rather than using a simplisic barometer of money versus cups on ever occassion.
It's simplistic to expect manager's to be held accountable based on the amount of money they have spent? :confused: :confused:
If you choose to have whatever opinions on O'Leary that's fair enough. It lessens the credibility of those opinions if you choose not be informed as to have even a basic opinion on one of the most important events in O"Leary's connection with the Irish team and the then team manager. An event with unprecedented ramifications for a player of such standing, casting O"Leary into the shadows for years, a player of undoubted skill and ability cast out of the squad by the then highly regarded manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Some people have a view that Jack overreacted, that Jack treated him harshly, others have a view that Jack was setting the bar for standards of committment, others like me have the opinion that it was a bit of everything but Jack just didn't like something about O'Leary.
They're not even the biggest club in Yorkshire :pQuote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Sorry you are concentrating something that was introduced as a wild card by somebody who was losing a debate in relation to how big a club Leeds was. i was not going to be drawn in on a seperate debate. It is a classic move by people who are losilng a debate to change the subject . WWS clearly did this when he realised that his point about Leeds and their standing as a top 6 club did not stand up to factualy scrutiny he through in a side issue which was O Learys and Charltons disagreement over the Triangular tournament in 1986. I do know about this and I do know the issues but I was not going to be drawn into as I feel it has no bearing on how good a manager David O leary was at Leeds Utd. Also why would I post opinions about something and then have a fellow poster come in and show that in fact those opinions were based on points that were factually incorrect. I have not read extensively on the subject. I have read quotes here and there, I remember it at the time and having my Dad say Charlton was right and my brothe say O leary was right. I felt sorry for anybody who wanted to play for Ireland and was refused but I also realised that the manager must have rules etc. I think the issue was quite complex and I am not going to post strong opinions either way on it as I think there are 2 sides to the story and it really comes down to personal opinion on what you think of Charlton or O Leary in my view.
Neil spends all his waking hours thinking about this particular thread. Discuss:D
KOH
Again personal comments do not do the site or the poster or the thread any good in my view.
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Originally Posted by NeilMcD
its stands up totally to scrutiny. Glad to see you've "won" the debate. Any other awards you'd like to confer on yourself? - O'Leary is actually the main thrust of this thread (his utter destruction of the once great Leeds being the central point of contention here). No incident informs us of his character more than the iceland one. Thats the type of person he was and is - and thats why Cas has a point.
And yes Leeds are one of the top 6 great football clubs of england - and the reasons why go deeper than what you can google or check on wikipedia
Prove how they are one of the top 6 clubs then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
Does that incident not also tell us about Charlton and a lot of people were of the view that Charlton was bang out of order for what he did to David O Leary. There are many sides to any story and it is a rather simplistic idea to suggest that it is black and white that O Leary was totally wrong and Charlton was totally right in this regard.
player refuses to play when asked for his country
how many sides are there?
thats it from the point of view of O'Leary and what he's like.
the length of the punishment is the only issue than from charltons side. but the actions that prompted it are all O leary. and like cascarino, villa fans, leeds fans and me - we just dont like him
Leeds are a massive club for many reasons but the prime one relates to their heyday - they played their greatest stuff during the dawn of tv era - which means many of their players hold a greater place in the popular conciousness. Why do you think there are so many people of a certain vintage who follow Leeds in Ireland? The impact of that time was arguably greater than at previous ones because football was reaching a wider televised audience for the first time
WWS
on another totally unrelated topic great result for Crumlin yesterday
(sorry continue)
And personal opinions are based on ????Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
One bit that grated you was Cas's honesty/bad journalism in personalising his attack on O'Leary. You clearly referred to O'Leary the player as being superior and Cas some sort of criminal low life.
Isn't it ironic that IF Cas was as you interpret, a lowlife, who hung around with lowlifes, admits that the least sincere person he has ever met is O'Leary :)
You don't have sufficient information in your data bank to make any kind of informed judgement on O'Leary as a player for Ireland.
Many people opinions about O'Leary have been shaped since his reaction to being dropped by Hand or later. The Iceland affair is just another important affair along the way. I see that you are way too young to even have a memory of O'Leary as a player in the mid 80's for Ireland.
His playing career and managerial life to this day have all followed a certain pattern, denial /never taking responsibility,/ blame, demonstrative obsession about his image.
What's the term ? a persistant repeat offender.
Personal opinion is based on (amongst others) acute observation.
Playing for Ireland the "low lifer" Cas gave 100% of his abilities all the time, whether he was on the bench, returning after being dropped or called back. a crock, at the age of 37 from his cosy French Villa when we had nobody else.
At present he competes under the halo of the Irish flag at poker tournaments. 'Tis a saintly image.
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Originally Posted by geysir
Would you rather I made a comment on an Issue that I openly admit that I am ignorant of all the facts as I do not know what was said between Charlton and O Leary in their phone calls. What was said to the Liverpool players. Wht was said to Kenny Daglish. The story is quite complex that is why there are those who were outraged at the time by Charltons behaviour and there were others who were outraged by O Learys behaviour. Both have valid views in my opinion. However in relation to my knowledge of the respective footballing of either player, I have been attending Ireland matches since 1986 as I was at Charltons first game in charge and I have not missed many since then. I have watched both O Leary as a playerfor Ireland and Arsenal and Cascarino as a player for Ireland, Villa, Celtic, Millwall and some of his games in France and I would say that O Leary was a much better footballer in the ball playing sense and he played at the back whereas Cascarino played as a forward. In addition O Leary was a better professional in that he had a better diet and did not abuse his body in the same way that Cascarino did. That is why O Leary achieved more in the game that Cascarino did. Finally how do you know what information I do or do not have of a players ability.
Also all the bits that I have spoke about Cascarino and his behaviour off the pitch are from his book. The reason I pointed this out because it was Cascarino who was having a go at O Learys character. I was saying that is fine, have a go but, now lets examine Cascarion's character and it is fair to say that he ie not whiter than white and he does have some cheek to having a personal attack at O Leary when his personality does not stand up to scrutiny. All of this would not be relevant and I would not have said it only, Cascarino for some reason has a bee in his bonnet about O Leary ( maybe its cause he cant get over the fact O leary had more football talent then he did). Cascarino is the one who has repeatedly written personal attacks against O Leary whenever he gets the chance to. I understand the point ou are making that if Cascarino is dealing in a dodgy world and he finds O Leary the least sincere person he has ever met, it says a lot about O Leary. However my point agains that would be why trust Cascarinos view of O Leary.
Jesus give it a rest lads....if I wanted to hear the same points over and over again I'd put on my "O' Learys excuses DVD".
They're both gobshoites. Good candidates for a celebrity death match.
Would you say Spurs are a bigger club than Leeds?:D :D
Doesnt Niall Quinn in his book say how much all the other players hated O Leary as well? Its not just Cascarino.
God damn, it just looks like everyone hates each otherQuote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Regardless of your opinion of Cascarino he is a good journalist.You say O'Leary will not be out of work for long because he is a good manager - i guarantee cascarino would not be out of work long if he left his paper,which is in my opinion writing for The Times is comparable, in journalist terms, to managing a big club.
You say cascarino didnt walk out on his country - was O'Leary not born in England also ?
The ultimate failing of Leeds Utd under O'Leary/Ridsdale was that they gambled heavily on continuily competing in the CL and spent money anticipating the annual windfall the CL would bring.
O'Leary was backed to the hilt by his chairman and i guess the phrase "he could not of asked for more" could be used?
Yet O'Leary failed to deliver consistant CL to Leeds which subsequently reduced their anticipated revenue and brought on the financial ruin that followed.The difference between Jols and O'leary is that the money jols has spent is not reliant on CL/UEFA income to keep the club above water and few of his signings will reach the high inflated figures of Fowler/keane/ferdinand/viduka etc
All any manager will ask for is money O'Leary got his in abundance and failed !
You asked which is better CL qualification or winning the FA cup - i remember at the time O'leary was resting players and putting out a 2nd string in the league cup and fans and ex players of leeds were begging to just win a cup and give them a day out and then go for the bigger prizes - that's what they thought.
With Villa he achieved nothing they are no better off than before he started .
In 20 yrs time when people talk of dave O'Leary as a manager he'll be remembered for bringing down a "big club" like Leeds
I agree with you they are an average club with a patchy sometimes bright history but that's what he'll be remembered for - unless he does something else in the future
I also disagree with regards him being back in the premiership this season
In fact his managerial career is starting to become similar to Cascarino's as a players - average then move on ..............
As for Cascarino knowing nothing of the game ...... then you dont listen to his tips.You dont have to be a manager to know the game tactically
There is plenty of players that would make great managers but for whatever reason dont give it a go, be it personality,or whatever.Just because they get well paid to give their opinions to various forms of the media is not a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
No I would not. Spurs are a club that has ideas of grandeur in my view. They have an elevated idea of how big they are. There support and success on the field does not stand up to the ideas of grandeur that their support has.
Never read Quinns book so I dont know about that. I never said that nobody else does not like Cascarino. But Cascarino seems to be the only one who regularly writes personal pieces on O Leary, I think its about time he dropped it to be honest.
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Originally Posted by Pedro m
If this post is directed at me please find quotes where I said that he would be back at work before too long.
I think O leary is a half decent manager with many faults and some good points. I think the job he did at Leeds is not as simplistic as he blew all the money so therefore he failed. Thats my opinion but I am willing to say that its only an opinion. In addition I think that Cascarino is a rubbish journalist but again its only my opinion. Some people like this style so fair enough. However you state that Cascarino is a good journalist regardless of my opinion. Sorry but is life not made up of opinions and I did not realise that there is some canon of good journalist that Cascarino belongs too. Fair enough that if you think that Cascarino is a good journalist but do not dismiss my opinion as it is a valid as yours on this subject. There is not such thing as a fact when it comes to whether someone is a good journalist or not. Its a subjective call which is impossible to have a right or wrong answer.
Also someones country is not always where the person is born O Leary grew up in Ireland and both his parents were from here. He happened to be born in England but if you are saying that all people born in England have to be English then you are going to make yourself to many people on this board.