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Out of interest have you ever lived in Ireland? From your post I thought you were born and raised in America. If this is the case where did the Irish accent come from? Was it just the influence of the family??Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
Only asking out of interest, as there is an annoying habit for some 2G Irish over here in the UK to put on an exageratted 'Oirish Accent' in the belief that it might make them that 1% more Irish than they are............
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Originally Posted by Junior
I know what you mean, one ****wit who was brought up in North London but makes the attempt to pass himself off as being born and reared in Galway even called me a plastic Paddy, was not too pleased when I broke the news to him in front of his mates that his accent was fake and a ****ing very poor standard, funny how when you ask any of these super 2g's none of them have ever made the major plunge and gone to an Ireland match or gone on the old stroll's down Holloway road, know what I mean.
I think for some 2G it's pretty easy to pick up an Irish accent. The odd schoolchum of my kids has Irish accents with their only interaction with English people at school. No doubt it'll change as they grow up, but at the moment as soon as the hols break up they are on the first flight out of Stansted. Even my kids are off to their granny's at Easter and the summer, as much as to keep them - especially the boy - from hanging out with the local 'Planky Gang' :rolleyes: as to educate them of their 'roots'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
So hang on, As I say, I'm confused what would your thoughts on having to pick 3-5 Irish based players in every squad??? They've shown in Europe they can raise their game to higher standards, and they'd play their hearts out for the shirt, isn't this why we've had such succes with underage teams, pride???
What was the mentality of calling up Macken that time??? Hopefully it was so he couldn't play for any other country and now he's fcuked, not that anyone would want him, this was a prime example of wanting to play international football, who cares who for!
*Macken's Dad tried to convince him over and over to play for Ireland, he chose England at underage level, so I'm told anyway. You should only be allowed play for one country at any level!
Rant over.
Who moved this to off-topic?:confused:. I haven't been following this thread but from what I can see it should be in the Ireland forum:confused:
i moved it to off topic cos it had moved away from football and towards discussion on nationality.
Ah ok sorry, you should have told me:o. Move it back if you want;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Serious question to the 2nd generation people.
If you are 100% Irish, then why do so many people with exactly the same kind of background as you (one or both parents Irish or even more tenuous than that) have no problem in identifying themselves as British or the nationality of whatever country they were born in/live in?
And if such people exist as we all know they do (c/f earlier list of players who did not declare for Ireland), can you not see that it makes it hard for some Irish people to identify you as being Irish?
I've no problem with people identifying me as being Irish but then again I have the "right" accent and to be honest I really dont care where people think I come from. If someone of irish parentage wants to call themselves British or anything else then that is their choice. I've made mine.
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Originally Posted by Feech
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Originally Posted by Feech
The only 2g players in recent times that went for England (ie both or one or parents from Ireland) were as has been said Gallen and Keown and Trevor Sinclare (mother from Sligo I belive).
In Gallen and Keown's case both of them did and still do class themselves as Irish and sadly let their minds be made up for them by pressure from other people,but still pretty much live amongst the Irish Communitys they grew up in. In Gallens case it caused slagging from his two older brothers both of which won underage caps for Ireland, often leading to him being called the t*n by them.
If a person like Scholes or people like him with an Irish grandperant don't want to play for Ireland thats their choice, after all they proberly don't feel Irish so i've no problem with that.
But from a point of view about a lot of people taking 2g people serious as Irish, then people only have to look at the amount of support that comes from the Irish community over here when ever there is an Ireland game be it home or away, a support that was there in large numbers ever before the time of euro 88 and when following the Ireland team was trendy. Every game is an away game for us, a journey by boat or plane, so there is a good enough reason in it's self why we are serious and should be taken so, plus the Irish constutution class us as Irish so I guess like all laws of the land PEOPLE SHOULD JUST RESPECT IT, and get on with it.
With the way that Irelands Media seems to fall over themselves about news and people from England, and the way that Dublin city centre seems to look like a high Street in England with all the British shops,maybe its us 2g's who should be trying to take some of our 1g's back home serious about being Irish.
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Originally Posted by Feech
Good Book i've just read called ''Enchanted by dreams'' by Joe Good, not a football book but written by a London Irish fella. Gives an interesting insight to how a lot of his fellow Irish men and Women who were born in Ireland viewed their own Irishness at the time.
Its a valid point Feech. Plenty 2G's here in Manchester and around the UK who wouldnt class themselves as Irish at all, or they would class themselves as equally Irish and English. I believe it is very much derived from your upbringing and the influences you encountered as a youngster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feech
I could understand the confusion if the 1G's had put so much thought in to it? Sadly, in the majority of cases, they here an english accent and their mind is made up:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Feech
Ah the old ''how come your not at Wembley'' remark. Have to say not all 2g's here in London class themselves as Irish some don't know what they are. but I suppose when you do have anything up to and over 1 million people in England who are eligable for Irish citizenship not everyone is going to feel the same affinaty to Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
I can't say I get too annoyed when you do get other 2g's following England, after all it's their choice it's nor really for me to say, but I like yourself hate having to explain myself why i'm at an Ireland match to anyone.
An area with similar emmigration over the years like Ireland is the Caribbean.
In football, domestically their leagues are not the strongest (Although popular), this has been reflected by a policy of recruitment fromthe Diaspora.
Currently Trinidad and Tobago are trying to recruit Aston Villas Jlloyd Samuel and West Hams Bobby Zamora. Not by any means their first players not born or raised in the country.
Darren Moore(WBA) ,Kevin Lisbie (Norwich), Deon Burton (Rotherham),Jason Euell(Charlton),Richard Langley (QPR), Barry Hayles (Milwall), Marlon King (Notts Forest),Joel McAnuff (C Palace), Darryl Powell, Fitzroy Simpson,
Jamie Lawrence and Frank Sinclair are amonst the second or third generation players to have been capped by Jamaica.
Most of the Caribbean Islands have similar policies, St Kitts and Nevis have Peterborough pair Adam Newton and Sagi Burton. Barbados have Sheffield Utds Paul Ifill to name but a few players for a few countries.
It is not just Britain , but also the US and Europe that these countries turn to when tracing the roots of talent.
Fifas rules over eligdibilty reflect emigration, people movement of all forms. Some may use this to cynically further their football careers, others because they have an affection or feel that they actually belong to the country they choose to play for. Either way its messy, but neccessary.
I'd happily take Liam Lawrence if he's eligible.
The number of players with both Irish parents - what would you think of a Dub with one English parent declaring for England (think that Tim Nice But Dim rugger bugger from Sarecens whose name escapres me)? - that have played for England since Shay Brennan is minute. Keown - whose parents are from the North - and Gallen who I know for a fact was a youth for a club that put immense pressure on its players to declare for noone but England. And that's your argument. Who else is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Feech
As for those 2G thinking they're British, I do find more of them thinking they are British than say the 2G Spanish or Italians I know. There is a big difference in their upbringing. When I go back to Spain, my relatives don't consider me English or Irish. They've always told me the importance of speaking Spanish and learning of my roots. While my father stressed the importance of my Irishness when young, I hear quite a few Irish parents who did everthing to bring their kids up as Brits. They even laugh at their kids when all this hard work fails. The end result is that many 2G Irish who think they are British are confused of their identity. It is not helped that the natives don't consider the 2G truly their own although they like to bang on about 2G with an Irish allegience being 'plastics.'
Also, my British born Spanish cousins and all the 2G Spanish friends I know were all registered as Spanish citizens at birth with a Spanish embassy. Maybe their parents all had more pride in their country than the Irish: My mother's level of poverty was far worse than my father's but she doesn't have this 'what did Spain ever do for me?' whinging attitude of some of the Irish I know. Finally, there is the good old (Irish) Catholic education of this country. Thankfully I avoided that one, going to schools where the fact that I'm not British was soon drummed into me by my fellow pupils. However, my children attend Catholic schools that wallow in 'Britishness' that ordinary comprehensives would now find embarrassing. I've had to tell the infant school principal (a Cork born nun who admitted she lost relatives to the Black and Tans) to stop badgering my kids into buying poppys. What a joke! It's like 'Look! We're just as British as you. Honest! Even if we follow a Roman king.'
Also you mention footballers. But what about the fan base in Britain. When we played the tans in 91, Ray Treacy was up in arms about the tickets that the English FA put aside for the Irish in Britain. Why do we - 2g fans - follow Ireland? Gloryhunting? Hardly think so. Easier getting tickets? You are joking? What else apart from the same reasons that you find Irish people following the side.
Thanks for all your answers and for taking the questions in the spirit they were meant.
I actually didn't just mean about football but about the Smiths and Oasis etc. being more identified as English/British and not doing too much to correct this. (Yes, I do know about commercial pressures etc. but still....)
Oasis play the Irish card when it suits them
Can't be arsed reading the whole thread, but can guess where it was going.
Nationality is down to a state of mind. 2G's who are Irish and feel irish shouldn't look down on people that have chosen to fully integrate into the country they live and vica versa. That's their choice.
I've more respect for people that follow their heart rather than some of the mercenaries like Morrison that make a career decision. And that includes the likes of Gallen - if they truely felt irish then it shouldn't have mattered the pressure put on them.
I've integrated nicely thank you very much, unless you think that integration involves covering yourself in bulldog tatoos and generally considering yourself more English than the English, let alone certain other 2G groups. In response to Feech, people like Sylvo and Junior ARE 100% Irish. Their parents are Irish, all four grandparents are Irish. They're as much English as Osama Bin Laden. The difference between them and you (prooviding all your grandparents are Irish) is that they fell out of the mother in another country. Sorry mate, but to mimic probably the only line from the BNP that I fully agree with, 'if you're born in a stable, it don't make you a horse.' Now if some people want to think that it does, then let them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I don't believe being Irish did mean that much to him. He could have after all done what Kilbane did and said no. I would have. And we can see which one is higher up the footballing scale. But for some people on this forum, seeing the stick that Kilbane gets, it is Gallen who was the better player for choosing England. Talk about inferiority complex. :rolleyes: And I'm still waiting for this long list of 2G Irish with both parents that are Irish to have opted for England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Totally agree with you Lopez but I do have one more name to add to this admittedly small list - John Deehan. Deehans dad was good pals with my dad and was absolutely mortified when Deehan chose England ahead of Ireland in the late 70s. He got so much stick from my dad and his pals. The fact that he only got 1 cap added more fuel to their fire. Why John Deehan plumped for England I don't know. He had a very similar background to myself. Both parents Irish, and active members of the Irish community in Birmingham. I honestly think that some 2gs - and this is a small number - are ashamed / embarrased of their background. I know 2 other lads who went to school with myself, again both parents Irish, who are members of the England travel club and follow England home and away. I can't understand it :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I've mentioned this before on here, but in my experience the only people who have ever had problems with myself being Irish whilst following the Boys in Green have been Dubliners. I've a feeling it might be to do with dubliners not emigrating to England on the same scale as others - less likely to have cousins with English accents. A big generalisation I know as I've met so many sound Dubs, but just a little theory.
Is that sarcasm? I would rather have 11 irishmen lose every match rather than have 11 foreigners even if they were the best players in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by thejollyrodger
BUT, I accept Kilbane as an Irishman, he considers himself to be Irish etc, unlike mercenaries like the majority of the Charlton foreigners.
And where now was the thread going. I would have to say that i've integrated here in this country, have many English friends, drive around in a goverment van that doubles up as a taxi, enjoy the cosmopolitan life that is here in Laaandan, have not intergrated to the point were i'm involved in Mancs V cockney arguments, leave that to the natives I do.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Well someone wanted a list of players: Here's some from the past
Joe Corrigan; Martin Keown,Paul Gascoigne, Kevin Keegan were all eligible one way or another of playing for the Republic. Joe Corrigan the goalkeeper for Manchester City had two Irish parents and only won 9 England Caps between the late 1960's and late 1970's. He would have had 59 for the Republic during the same period. He has admitted to Irish fans whom he met that he should have declared for the Republic and not doing so was his greatest regret of his long career. He was an outstanding goalkeeper at a time when the Republic didn't have any decent ones, who knows with him between the posts Eoin Hand's team might have qualified for the 1982 World Cup ? Gazza and Kevin Keegan probably made the right decision as in the end they had decent international careers, although Keegan played in only 1 World Cup in his career and even that was as a substitute in 1982.
Martin Keown also had two Irish parents. However he would not have been an automatic choice, ahead of Paul McGrath, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Moran and even as I say Dave O'Leary ? I don't think so. Fair play to Clinton Morrison for having the intelligence to realise that his only hope of regular international football was in the green of Ireland , his mother's country, unlike Kevin Gallen whose brother played Under 21 for the Republic of Ireland. Incidentally Kevin Gallen had a great England career in the end didn't he? :D
FYI - Heres a list of some players with Irish roots who have capped by the US in the last few years:
Gregg Berhalter(mother is Irish, from Galway I think)
Eddie Gaven
Richard Mulrooney
Kerry Zavagnin(irish citizen)
John O'Brien
Pat Noonan
Brian McBride
Landon Donovan
Conor Casey
Brian Carroll
Leo Cullen
Clint Dempsey
Brian Mullan
uncapped mls players:
Tim Regan
Chad Barrett
Mike Magee
Danny O'Rourke
Michael Bradley
Michael Parkhurst(parents are from Ireland)
Jim Curtin
Thanks for the list, but how many of these are actually qualified for Irish citizenship. The Minister for Justice might have been a bit generous in the past but I don't think that he's like the Germans where grossfarter's nazi card and a German name get's you instant citizenship. I mean, the Kennedys over your side of the water are supposed to be as Irish as getting drunk and fighting, but I know none of the present generation would get a passport on the strength of their roots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrostars