Clubs divided over future LOI format?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

Licencing isn't a completely seperate issue - would be where we are if it had ever been done properly? Monaghan going bust mid season, on top of others in recent seasons is what's left the first unsustainable. Sporting Fingal being able to get around licencing to earn promotion, kept other sustainable clubs down. It's part of the context which has left us where we are.

Ideally any changes would be properly researched and would be accompanied with a PR blitz. Unfortunately the FAI doesn't seem to have the capabilities to do either. Even if the latter can be as little as just keep on putting up people for TV and Radio stations, which are desperate for easy content.

---

Monaghan and Sporting Fingal were both Premier clubs at the time they went bust. The problems of the FD are not related to their going bust but to the LOI solution of filling the gaps from (potential) FD clubs - through additional promotion and/or no relegation.

Would a single Division have "saved" Fingal ? No. Monaghan ? no again. Galway ? see previous answer. Would it have prevented the problems Shams, Shels, Cork Bohs etc got themselves into ? Of course not.


Clubs can and have gone bust in a single division entity so it is no solution to clubs going bust. Proper rigourous licencing is probobly the best/only deterrent and that can/cant apply irrespective of the number of Divisions.

I wouldn't be totally in favour of somewhere like Monfort coming in to research this as we have plenty of quality expertise in Ireland, in fact we have far better expertise than in the UK. It doesn't matter what is done, whether by a private company or University or Barack Obama, Irish football is extremely dysfunctional and the FAI have neither the will nor the bottle to take on constructive changes. As everyone who has posted here, and on other threads, has agreed, changing the league structure means nothing if it's just moving clubs from one division to the next or into one big dollop of a division. The only thing that matters is having a viable, sustainable and productive league system - which feeds up into the national team and generates opportunities for those not fortunate enough to get full-time contracts abroad (this is a hot topic admittedly).

The first step the FAI needs to do, in my opinion, is extremely radical, may well be contended by me feiners under EU law, but one which will generate income to support football in the country and not destroy young footballers as it does now. Each footballer, no matter where they're from in the country, is contracted to the FAI. If the FAI own the contracts of each player in the country (Irish) then they can ensure proper treatment, the self-generating publicity seekers in the PFAI are redundant, and clubs cannot overspend as all contracts are centralised.

How is this good?
1. It helps simplify licencing - the FAI knows how much each player gets, the clubs know it too, so there's no discussion (feeling sad already for Sligo and Rovers fans if this is the case), it also allows for a proper salary cap.
2. It prevents schoolboy clubs (I almost said "prostituting" but that's too harsh) youngsters out to English clubs and grabbing what they can. Any player who leaves, the fee comes back to the FAI who can then divvy it out, as well as keep a chunk for general development.
3. It builds a development system in and of itself - which flows over into the game.

The FAI is our governing body, it is a mish-mash of "stakeholders" who have their own vested interests, not football, and not the healthy development of it's participants. They have a real chance to do something now, make a real difference and deliver.

I suppose the obvious Irish candidate to carry out a proper study would probably be UL, but, and this is just a personal thing, I'd prefer it not to be carried out by someone who could have accusations of bias thrown at them, whether they were justified or not. And that unfotunately means looking outside of Ireland.


I do approve of central contracts in principle, but:

-The FAI are a famously incompetent and biased organisation. I wouldn't trust them to hold central contracts. Imagine what they would have done to Limerick over Barcelona-gate if they had held the contracts of all their players!

-Wouldn't a move like this require the votes of all the various squabbling entities in Irish football? So even if it is a good idea, it's never going to happen?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Would a single Division have "saved" Fingal ? No. Monaghan ? no again. Galway ? see previous answer. Would it have prevented the problems Shams, Shels, Cork Bohs etc got themselves into ? Of course not.

---

Not at all, but there are other bad things that can happen to a club apart from going bust.

Would a single division have prevented the lacklustre crowds and a general lack of interest that seems prevalent in the First Division this season? It might well have. And that would have been to the benefit of the LOI as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peadar1987

I suppose the obvious Irish candidate to carry out a proper study would probably be UL, but, and this is just a personal thing, I'd prefer it to be carried out by someone who could have accusations of bias thrown at them, whether they were justified or not. And that unfotunately means looking outside of Ireland.


I do approve of central contracts in principle, but:

-The FAI are a famously incompetent and biased organisation. I wouldn't trust them to hold central contracts. Imagine what they would have done to Limerick over Barcelona-gate if they had held the contracts of all their players!

-Wouldn't a move like this require the votes of all the various squabbling entities in Irish football? So even if it is a good idea, it's never going to happen.

---

Agreed on the bias thing being thrown at UL, or UCD, QUB might be good. Though no matter what is done it'll be bitched about.

Agreed too on the incompetence of the FAI, however......this is something they can tie in with the government (under some sort of system aligned to social welfare, department of health etc) so that there is oversight provided. Again, it's whether anyone can be trusted. So then the only thing to do is for the FAI to set up a holding company of sorts for this enterprise. And if they did try to mess with Limerick (for that example) they would be destroyed in court as all the clubs and entities would be affected.

I don't know if it requires the agreement of all parts of the FAI, though I'm sure enough of them would go for it. It may be possible to read down as a dictat, though legality issues could arise. For sure the government couldn't step in, though if anyone can sell it, JD can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Monaghan and Sporting Fingal were both Premier clubs at the time they went bust. The problems of the FD are not related to their going bust but to the LOI solution of filling the gaps from (potential) FD clubs - through additional promotion and/or no relegation

---

It's all part of the same problem - clubs going bust is a licencing problem, which has lead to the 1st being unsustainable. Even the fact that they couldn't get clubs to come up is supposedly due to licencing. Nothing is in isolation as you suggested earlier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Licencing etc does need to be tightened but that is a completely seperate issue to league restructuring.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Clubs can and have gone bust in a single division entity so it is no solution to clubs going bust. Proper rigourous licencing is probobly the best/only deterrent and that can/cant apply irrespective of the number of Divisions.

---

I don't see a single division as a long term solution. It's a short term fire fighting measure because as things stand, we have only 7 teams in the 1st for next year which isn't sustainable.

Long term I'm in favour of something more radical than x teams in the premier, y in the 1st division. I've put forward a possible structure, but I'd prefer a credible outside organisation to do proper research and produce a proposal, and for the FAI to be strong enough to implement and support and market that proposal.

btw I wouldn't see UL. Maybe it's due to the rantings of it's former president, but my perception would be of an ideologically bias from that University.

Bertie Ahern will sort this sh!t out, sure look at how he sorted the country out...

What's Roy Dooney up to these days?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spudulika

UL, or UCD, QUB might be good.

---

Might they have the skills? Possibly. But they'd all be accused of bias. If it were done, it has to be someone outside of Ireland. And in my view, it would be best done by a University department that has a longstanding reputation of research excellence. The reason I would tout for a Uni to do it over a private research company is the latter are all too often employed to come up with, or support an implicit, "business plan" as their main research objective. This is important, sure, but what I think we need is an analysis of the historical socio-economic and cultural context of why certain models work in the way that they do.

All pie in the sky of course. I don't think the FAI would spend the cash, or have the foresight to get it done properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gormacha

Might they have the skills? Possibly. But they'd all be accused of bias. If it were done, it has to be someone outside of Ireland. And in my view, it would be best done by a University department that has a longstanding reputation of research excellence. The reason I would tout for a Uni to do it over a private research company is the latter are all too often employed to come up with, or support an implicit, "business plan" as their main research objective. This is important, sure, but what I think we need is an analysis of the historical socio-economic and cultural context of why certain models work in the way that they do.

All pie in the sky of course. I don't think the FAI would spend the cash, or have the foresight to get it done properly.

---

You could always email them and suggest it. The worst they'll do is continue to do the same as they're doing now!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sam_Heggy

Bertie Ahern will sort this sh!t out, sure look at how he sorted the country out...

---

Now now. Don't speak ill of the dead.

Edit: I cannot believe that this was my 5000th post. Fack!

How is there a future for the league when we have a crowd of CLOWNS who run it. DCFC this month arranged to postpone its match with St Pats due to Pats being in Europe with the condition that DCFC would not be disadvantaged. To our amazement what have the league done, they send us twice travelling to Dublin in 4 days, tonight against Shelbourne and then away to Pats on Monday night. Ridiculous as it might seem, we then find out guess what PATS HAVE NO GAME TONIGHT so they have extra days rest and no travel. So we help PATS and help try and improve the leagues Cooefficent and get punished as a result. The quicker fans of the league we love get these moroons out the better they couldnt organise anything

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flexy

How is there a future for the league when we have a crowd of CLOWNS who run it. DCFC this month arranged to postpone its match with St Pats due to Pats being in Europe with the condition that DCFC would not be disadvantaged. To our amazement what have the league done, they send us twice travelling to Dublin in 4 days, tonight against Shelbourne and then away to Pats on Monday night. Ridiculous as it might seem, we then find out guess what PATS HAVE NO GAME TONIGHT so they have extra days rest and no travel. So we help PATS and help try and improve the leagues Cooefficent and get punished as a result. The quicker fans of the league we love get these moroons out the better they couldnt organise anything

---

Ah would you stop, you were getting beat either way ;)

It was known at the time that Pats had no game too. You only find out today?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

---

League, but its not unilateral

Hold on a minute Dodge, we helped yous out by agreeing to postpone the game.

Now the league only told us this week that the game had to be played on Monday as there are no alternative dates available between now and end of season ( A load of Tosh ).

Without having your St Pats glasses on, would you be happy if the tables were turned and having two 300 mile round trips in a space of 4 days and knowing your oppenents had a good rest. Dont think so

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flexy

Without having your St Pats glasses on, would you be happy if the tables were turned and having two 300 mile round trips in a space of 4 days and knowing your oppenents had a good rest. Dont think so

---

I certainly wouldn't be moaning about it on the internet. These things happen. The one game rest means nothing. In the past 6 weeks I'd say Pats have had twice the games Derry have had. A game tonight isn't that big a deal.

Couldn't be next Monday as there's league games
Couldn't be the following one as there could be cup replays
Couldn't be the week after as Pats/Rovers moved to midweek for league cup

So do you not think this Monday was as good as any?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peadar1987

Not at all, but there are other bad things that can happen to a club apart from going bust.

Would a single division have prevented the lacklustre crowds and a general lack of interest that seems prevalent in the First Division this season? It might well have. And that would have been to the benefit of the LOI as a whole.

---

Not a lot much worse for a club than going bust Peadar :eek:

Would a single Division have led to smaller gates for some (current) Prem clubs games (home game V Wexford Youths replacing homne game V shams) ?

While I do not disagree with a single Division concept the only rationale todate has been a couple of bigger gates for First Division clubs (probobly at the expense of Prem club gates).

Sorry, but this does not benifit the LOI as a whole and furthermore allows the authorities to avoid making the hard decisions required that might benifit the LOI as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Does the league decide the dates for rescheduled fixtures or the clubs?

---

league has to ratify any fixture. Following Bohs, ahem, endeavours in Iceland (dont mention the war) we sought to move our League game to Monday night. Our opponents UCD were happy enough to change but the Abbotstown jobworths refused to sanction it and insisted the match go ahead on Sunday afternoon -apparently it would break some (unspecified) rule :confused:

Cork and Bray looked to move their League game (next monday) to the following Frday as they were both free (out of the cup). League didn't allow it

I think there's a rule that says a game can't be moved within 2 weeks it being due to be played. Can't find a link to the rules to check mind you. If clubs don't like this I'm sure they can propose a change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr A

I think there's a rule that says a game can't be moved within 2 weeks it being due to be played. Can't find a link to the rules to check mind you. If clubs don't like this I'm sure they can propose a change.

---

Fairly certain that 2 week rule is flaunted quite a bit around the European games.

CROSS-BORDER LEAGUES: UEFA PRESIDENT Michel Platini said yesterday that depending on how an experiment with the women’s senior game in Belgium and the Netherlands turns out, the organisation could change its stance on cross-Border leagues over the coming seasons, something that could have enormous implications for the future of the Airtricity League.

A shift in policy would open the door to initiatives like the Celtic League proposal, a competition involving leading clubs from the likes of Ireland (North and South), Scotland and Wales, that was floated a few years ago but which failed to gain the necessary support, in part because of the lack of Uefa approval and fear that the status of the participating countries’ separate national teams might be undermined.

Now, however, with an increasing number of leagues struggling due to the international financial climate and many lacking the depth required to make them genuinely competitive, Platini has said a major change in policy might be only a few years away.

As part of their attempt to assess the implications of permitting difficult leagues to merge at the highest level, Uefa has sanctioned the women’s senior league in Belgium and the Netherlands to be played on a cross-border basis, with the leading teams from each country at the end of the campaign progressing to the Champions League.

At present the BeNe League project is intended to run for three years after which, Platini says, it will be assessed and a wider discussion can take place on the desirability of merging leagues elsewhere across Europe.

“We have to decide whether to allow two leagues to play together,” he said at a press conference in Monaco yesterday. “At the moment we don’t allow it but in the future it’s possible that we will.

“There are many things to be considered; it has an effect on European competitions and it’s really complicated but there are crises in many countries and so there are leagues that fear for their existence and so it is something that we need to consider.”

If the changes are ultimately approved, the transformation of club rugby in recent years could serve as a rough model, with clubs from participating countries, such as the “Celtic nations” forming a “superleague” style top flight with regional , or national, lower divisions and movement between the two via some form of promotion/relegation and play-offs.

Over the last few years a variety of proposals that included Norway, Denmark and Sweden as well as Scotland and possibly Ireland have been floated and Uefa could see such changes as a way of revitalising the professional game outside of the continent’s major leagues like England, Spain, Italy, Germany and France.

“It’s an interesting experiment and something that everyone will be following with a lot of interest,” said Airtricity League director Fran Gavin yesterday.

But, he suggested, the FAI’s most immediate interest is its own women’s game.

“It’s an area that you might develop,” he said, “if you didn’t have enough teams or the required quality to develop the game here.”

Shamrock Rovers chairman Jonathan Roche was more taken with the possibilities for a senior men’s game that is embroiled in yet another, sometimes acrimonious, debate over league structures. “I think even without Scotland or Wales it could be a positive thing because it could open the door to an all-Ireland league,” he said. “I think the IFA are fairly attached to their national team and I can’t really see them letting it go but I think they’d be far more inclined to give up the league if it was all going to be done within the structures of Uefa.

“I know it’s a different sport but if you look at the RaboDirect Pro 12, I think you can see the wider possibilities and if Scotland were involved this could be far more than just a shot in the arm for the Irish game. They have a football industry over there and a game like Dundee United against Cork City would have a real appeal.”

Ultimately, the proposal could give rise to a number of regional leagues across the continent and might even result in some of the championships that were dismantled in the wake of the break up of Eastern Bloc being partially reconstituted. There, as here, more competitive games would be seen as a way of rekindling public interest in watching games live and generating greater revenues http://b-static.net/vbulletin/images...er_offline.gif



From the Irish Times.

Platini is very keen to have a major legacy left from his tenure as Uefa President, this following on from his proposal of having the European Championships played across different cities.

Love the idea that clubs vote against a reserve league on the basis of costs but will join a league that involves them flying to games 10-15 times a season

Whatever about an All-Ireland League, I certainly wouldn't be in favour of having a Celtic League. What works well in rugby may not apply to soccer.

I can't see the prospect of Cork City vs Motherwell or Derry City vs The New Saints attracting any more fans to games than present. It could eventually lead to franchise footballl, with clubs with proud histories having to give way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gufc2000

It could eventually lead to franchise footballl, with clubs with proud histories having to give way.

---

I'm sure the irony of a Galway fan posting this isn't lost

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gufc2000

Whatever about an All-Ireland League, I certainly wouldn't be in favour of having a Celtic League. What works well in rugby may not apply to soccer.

I can't see the prospect of Cork City vs Motherwell or Derry City vs The New Saints attracting any more fans to games than present. It could eventually lead to franchise footballl, with clubs with proud histories having to give way.

---

I like the idea. More clubs, larger market, more money. Plus it would give the Irish clubs a golden opportunity to revamp their image. A huge advertising campaign would look a lot better if it promised a new and exciting product. And from what I've heard from Scottish supporters, they're pretty jaded from constant trips to the Greater Glasgow area, and would love the chance for a few weekends away in Dublin, Galway or Cork. They'd probably travel in pretty large numbers.

I could see this starting as a cup competition first though, if it happens at all. People will want a testing ground. Hopefully it will work out better than the underhyped, underwhelming Setanta Cup did.

Pretty lazy comparison to Rugby. Fans might be running clubs, but the song remains the same.

Setanta Cup really shows that an All Ireland league is even less likely to be the solution than an internal restructuring. I do think it's the way forward, but watch the clubs that argue against a bigger or single division LoI, queue up for an All Ireland league with games against household names such as Ballinamallard United and/or resist a smaller "superleague" type entity.

I can't see what the attraction of such a league would be to, for example, SPL clubs. Say what you like about Scottish football (and I'm not a fan myself), but they have a fully functioning, internally coherent football culture. They might like the idea of an away cup trip to Ireland, but that'd be about it.

Iinteresting to see the Shamrock Rovers's Chairman making an essentially similar argument for a cross-national league as our own FD clubs are currently making for a single division.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gormacha

I can't see what the attraction of such a league would be to, for example, SPL clubs. Say what you like about Scottish football (and I'm not a fan myself), but they have a fully functioning, internally coherent football culture. They might like the idea of an away cup trip to Ireland, but that'd be about it.

---

I suppose the context for SPL clubs would be that such a move from UEFA would open the way for Celtic and Rangers to join the English league system. Actually, it could open up a huge can of worms - why would only smaller leagues take advantage of it?

There is no possibility a Celtic "league" could happen without an intermediate cup competition. I think the Setanta Cup was, in part, a testing ground for the possibility of a cross-border league that has failed.

Scottish clubs would never get on board with a Celtic league unless Rangers and Celtic were involved, but even so they would take a lot of convincing. With Rangers in the fourth tier though, now is probably the time to push for an experiment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gormacha

I can't see what the attraction of such a league would be to, for example, SPL clubs. Say what you like about Scottish football (and I'm not a fan myself), but they have a fully functioning, internally coherent football culture. They might like the idea of an away cup trip to Ireland, but that'd be about it.

Iinteresting to see the Shamrock Rovers's Chairman making an essentially similar argument for a cross-national league as our own FD clubs are currently making for a single division.

---

I think the only attraction for the Scottish clubs would be the potential for a greater market, and more money further down the line. Short term, over the first decade or two, it wouldn't be to their advantage. Over a longer timescale, strength in numbers and all that.

An all-Ireland league would probably boost attendances a little bit, to be fair, how much less attractive a fixture than SD Galway are Ballinamallard? You could hardly get a lower attendance, but big games such as those involving Linfield would probably attract decent crowds.

If it ever goes ahead, the big advantage won't be something inherent about an all-Ireland league, it will be the chance to launch it as a completely new competition to the Irish public, separate from the LOI and IL they have already dismissed beyond recovery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by peadar1987

I think the only attraction for the Scottish clubs would be the potential for a greater market, and more money further down the line. Short term, over the first decade or two, it wouldn't be to their advantage. Over a longer timescale, strength in numbers and all that.

An all-Ireland league would probably boost attendances a little bit, to be fair, how much less attractive a fixture than SD Galway are Ballinamallard? You could hardly get a lower attendance, but big games such as those involving Linfield would probably attract decent crowds.

If it ever goes ahead, the big advantage won't be something inherent about an all-Ireland league, it will be the chance to launch it as a completely new competition to the Irish public, separate from the LOI and IL they have already dismissed beyond recovery.

---

I actually agree with the idea of a celtic league and believe now may well be a good time to look at doing something. fresh chance to promote "new" shiny entity. increased level of interest with new clubs etc. timing may also be good as SPL teams come to terms with the (financial) loss of Rangers and the two horse race becoming a one horse race. They may well be prepared to look at a radical change rather than maintain the Status Quo while they still have a fanbase.

Would have to be a ten team division(s) for me, to keep down travel costs and to make it manageable in the early years, Who would get the golden tickets will be great fun :o so perhaps a cup competition for one season would not be a bad idea.

Scottish clubs won't touch a Celtic League with a ten-foot bargepole. Anyone who reckons otherwise is deluding themselves. Rangers will be back in the SPL in three years' time. In the meantime, there's effectively an extra European spot going. Scotland - like England - values tradition way too much to think a Celtic League is a panacea.

So if we're going to join up with Wales and the North, it'll add nothing to what we have now.

From what I understand a Celtic league would not affect the number of places being allocated to each country in UEFA competitions.

Weird. How would that work - top Irish side gets the Champions' League spot? Last Irish side in the Cup gets a UEFA Cup spot?

My point though was that Rangers being gone from the SPL is offset to an extent by an effective extra place for the smaller clubs to compete for - Motherwell in this year's Champions' League, for example. So Rangers' demotion isn't a complete disaster for the SPL.

Granted, their coefficient may well fall far enough that they lose that place anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

From what I understand a Celtic league would not affect the number of places being allocated to each country in UEFA competitions.

---

IS 'what you understand' based on a couple of speculative articles recently? not like there's been anything seriusly discussed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Weird. How would that work - top Irish side gets the Champions' League spot? Last Irish side in the Cup gets a UEFA Cup spot?

My point though was that Rangers being gone from the SPL is offset to an extent by an effective extra place for the smaller clubs to compete for - Motherwell in this year's Champions' League, for example. So Rangers' demotion isn't a complete disaster for the SPL.

Granted, their coefficient may well fall far enough that they lose that place anyway.

---

I'd imagine so. I think Scottish clubs would prefer to have the biannual fixture at home to Rangers than the remote possibility of European football. One side might benefit but the other 5 or so lose an important source of revenue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

IS 'what you understand' based on a couple of speculative articles recently? not like there's been anything seriusly discussed

---

Based on the fact that UEFA have no reason to reduce the number of clubs in European competition and the fact that Liechtenstein's highest ranked team is accommodated in the Europa League.

Liechtenstein's team qualified via the Cup. They have their own Cup competition. Vaduz tend to win the Cup every year and are also about four divisions higher than any other Liechtenstein team. Vadus weren't in Europe this year cos they lost the Cup last year (first time since 97)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Anyone who reckons otherwise is deluding themselves. Rangers will be back in the SPL in three years' time.

---

You seem to be certain of that. They're not even winning the fourth tier atm.

They should easily come up. Their latest signing scored twice on his debut, two days after scoring for Hearts in Anfield in the UEFA Cup. With the likes of Kevin Kyle, Neil Alexander, Lee McCullough and Andrew Little, they'll be grand. It's every opponent's biggest game ever, so naturally their opponents will be really up for it. But through in all the Cups, including a double against First Division Falkirk, and 17 goals in four home games says they'll be up. Once they get used to playing in pokey little grounds, they'll start walking the leagues.