or in in the case of Northern Ireland and in pretty much all respects, "you win few, you lose many".
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or in in the case of Northern Ireland and in pretty much all respects, "you win few, you lose many".
From the latest BT article, posted earlier:
"Two years ago FIFA decreed that under the Good Friday Agreement if a player eligible for Northern Ireland has an Irish passport he can play for the Republic"
That's **** poor "analysis", yet again, from the BT.
Competitive games since 2006:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
NI 27-11-8-8-41 points
RoI 29-11-13-5-46 (including one for drawn play-off game)
Not very methodical from the mountie there.
I don't agree with you on much, but hear hear to that. Bought the tele and thought the same reading that article.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Taking this back to football, I would love to see this team in a few years.
-------- Pimp My Goal ---------
Coleman Duffy Clark Ferguson
------------- Wilson ------------
-------McCarthy Gibson-------
-Stokes----------------Treacy-
------------ Long ---------------
And hopefully more to come...
And taking it away from it again...
You're working under the impression immigrants will support the status quo. But the likelyhood is they will support the status quo in the communities they live in. I'm sure it won't be long until the first of the 2nd generation eastern European immigrants from West Belfast togs out for Antrim in the Ulster Championship. Indeed there is a Pole standing for the assembly under an SDLP ticket in East Belfast.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
And from a football perspective, footballing 2nd gen immigrants are likely to be quite mercenary in which country they declare for. I'd say if they are top class, they're best option is likely to be Poland, Romania or Czech Rep if they qualify for those countries, but for the Latvians/Lithuanians/Hungarians/etc ROI is likely to be the best option.
The status quo in NI (that there's a border, basically) is the same for both communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
I think the DUP fielded a Polish Council candidate a few years ago- I read about it in Fortnight, IIRC.Quote:
Indeed there is a Pole standing for the assembly under an SDLP ticket in East Belfast
Why would they be any more mercenary than anyone else in NI?Quote:
And from a football perspective, footballing 2nd gen immigrants are likely to be quite mercenary in which country they declare for
WC 2010 qualifyingQuote:
I'd say if they are top class, they're best option is likely to be Poland
NI 4-3-3-15
PL 3-2-5-11
Why do you say that? Their recent record in qualifying for tournaments is similar (one each of the last eight).Quote:
for Latvians...ROI is likely to be the best option
GR, I'm not getting into a quotefest with you. Regardless of how well Latvia did in getting to Euro 2004, you know the point I'm making. Our qualifying record over the last 8 tournaments equals all 3 of the eastern countries I mentioned combined, and I could have gave a dozen examples.
Those Eastern Europeans will be likely to be more mercenary than average, because kids born and bred in NI seem difficult to tie down to NI. What makes you think you have a better chance, or even an equal chance with a kid with no parental connection to any part of Ireland at all?
And yes the DUP fielded a Polish candidate. The DUP have a polish council candidate, but the SDLP have several EE council candidates, and a Polish assembly candidate. Its all within the margin of error with such small numbers, but you would have to admit that it still illustrates my point that the split won't be entirely towards one community or the other, rather that people will probably join the community they live in, and adopt the appropriate political opinions.
I think you are :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
I understand your point, I don't agree with it. Even if perceived chance of qualifying was the only criterion for a dual-qualified player to weigh up in picking which offer to accept, your record over 16 years is no better than Latvia, and a third as good as Slovenia. A notional Slavic or Baltic wunderkind isn't immediately going to associate the RoI with regular qualification.Quote:
Regardless of how well Latvia did in getting to Euro 2004, you know the point I'm making
One doesn't follow from the other, does it? You're just guessing, there's no real way of knowing how an individual case, or a few of them, will behave.Quote:
Those Eastern Europeans will be likely to be more mercenary than average, because kids born and bred in NI seem difficult to tie down to NI
I didn't claim you could measure such chances, you did. In general, there are other factors which might influence the player: which team would be the most likely to offer representative football, whether this would help get professional contracts and so on.Quote:
What makes you think you have a better chance, or even an equal chance with a kid with no parental connection to any part of Ireland at all?
Indeed, I agree it's unlikely all the Latvians (say) in NI are likely to be entirely unionist or nationalist. I suspect many of them- even if settling locally, having kids and grandkids etc.- may choose to remain 'neutral'. Political opinions are a choice btw, not for others to determine as inappropriate unless they are illegal.Quote:
you would have to admit that it still illustrates my point that the split won't be entirely towards one community or the other, rather that people will probably join the community they live in, and adopt the appropriate political opinions
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...293540053.html
This is delicious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
The Star have it aswel ,looks a good prospect, the IFA will be seething after this.
It's an April fool. Just like the bank stess tests.
In future years, the last four years in Irish history will be known as "The Long April Fools' Day"
Very kind of Northern Ireland to continue being a feeder team to help give valuable international experience to our blossoming youth.
You're welcome. Although a youth set up that's just finished last in a group behind Estonia, Armenia and Georgia might better be described as wilting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Hey, we get French guys handling the ball to score against us in WC play-offs, you guys get Polish goalies (holy or otherwise) fresh airing back passes. Not fair!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
A fair point. I expect you'd win rather more competitive games than us if you got to the finals of competitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
As you'll have seen, that clown gifted us all three goals. If only he had a Faroese or Estonian imitator...Quote:
you guys get Polish goalies (holy or otherwise) fresh airing back passes. Not fair!
That pretty much sums up NI's qualification prospects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
We'll settle for a scraped 1-0 win over the Faeroes, then it's game on :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Yes, NI are poor this series, but Slovenia and Serbia have underperformed while even the improviong Estonians have already lost twice at home.
16 or 15 points might be enough for second. We'd have to beat both Serbia and Estonia at home, realistically.
I'm sure you would given NI's record in front of goals and the Faroes' ability to get a draw in Belfast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Aren't they always :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Estonia have three away games in a row which might knock them out of contention for qualification before the double-header with NI. With Italy qualified by the time NI are due to play them, 9 points from the last 3 games should be very achievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
If a certain keeper didn't have a Macedonia last saturday our group could look a lot different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
You need to get shots on goal to score.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
I thought we were respectable in the last two series. Our expectations are lower but maybe more realistic than yours: respectability means winning more qualifiers than we lose in any given tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Are you suggesting NI might win in Italy? :)Quote:
Estonia have three away games in a row which might knock them out of contention for qualification before the double-header with NI. With Italy qualified by the time NI are due to play them, 9 points from the last 3 games should be very achievable
I see Paddy Power have Serbia as favorite to finish second. I'd go for Slovenia- they're likely to go into the last game at home with the Serbs wth 14 points. To be ahead at that stage, Serbia would need to have either won in Windsor or at home to Italy. Of course both are feasible but given their off-field discipline problems I think less likely.
Our expectations are to be involved in at least the qualification shake-up. Given our ranking and the "small" number of teams in each qualification group, there's nothing unrealistic in expecting to be challenging for qualification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Yes. Why not? They're likely to qualified at that stage and willing to field an understrength side. Italy aren't a s strong as they used to be. In retrospect we should have beaten them home and away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I think Serbia have a strong group of players but their temperament is always questionable. Slovenia would be the team I'd tip as well. Good organisation, decent on the ball, hard to beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Fair enough. I assumed most of your fans saw only a finish in the top two and thus the play-offs at least as respectable, but maybe that's setting it a bit too high.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
We haven't beaten a really top side in an away qualifier since the 80s (Romania). I agree you should really have won in Bari; they had 10 men for 85 minutes ;)Quote:
Yes. Why not? They're likely to qualified at that stage and willing to field an understrength side. Italy aren't a s strong as they used to be. In retrospect we should have beaten them home and away
We had Paul McShane on the pitch for 90 mins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I blame Don Givens for that one, because there were some very talented players in that group. I watched our recent 2-0 defeat to Portugal and Noel King has an equally as talented group and I doubt that they will repeat that catastrophe in a qualifying group. In fact, Shane Ferguson, while he is very good, would probably have a fight on his hands for either LB or LW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Point taken gs, but when you've scored early you don't (we don't anyway) try as hard to score as if it was 0-0. We tend to score in most games, errors or not.
The NI group's second place is still very much up for grabs. It's a very "low points" group so far, so NI are only one more good win away from being right back in it, especially if the other teams draw. I wouldn't bet much against them getting second with Estonia, Faroes and a very disappointing Serbia still to go to Belfast.
I thought NI did reasonably okay the last two series as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
With regard to Shane I think players should go with the heart in this situation as when the clubs put on so much pressure not to turn up for internationals the players heart has to be in it to fight the pressure from the clubs.
What does any notional 'border' have to do especially with the status of any communities on the island??Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
'Searchlight', surely in their case.....Quote:
I think the DUP fielded a Polish Council candidate a few years ago- I read about it in Fortnight
Those immigrants aren't, er, carrying the same amount of baggage, per chance....Quote:
Why would they be any more mercenary than anyone else in NI?
Comparing records over the last 50 years or more would make more sense. Plus guessing given the choice, a nominally Catholic Pole would be less keen on playing for the North, just like some of the locals....Quote:
WC 2010 qualifying
NI 4-3-3-15
PL 3-2-5-11
The rest of the Eastern Europeans could be up for grabs, though loyalist paramilitaries have not exactly embraced the ethos of 'Football For All' in their approach to outsiders!
It really comes down to how integrated they feel, and the, er, 'welcome' they are accorded.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
There has definitely been residual racism all over the island, but anti-Nazi blogs have confirmed it's at its worst in areas dominated by loyalist activity.
Clearly they were unfamiliar with the stance on Catholics taken by certain prominent members of the said party's hierarchy !Quote:
the DUP fielded a Polish candidate. The DUP have a polish council candidate, but the SDLP have several EE council candidates, and a Polish assembly candidate. Its all within the margin of error with such small numbers, but you would have to admit that it still illustrates my point that the split won't be entirely towards one community or the other, rather that people will probably join the community they live in, and adopt the appropriate political opinions.
Though maybe said councillor was of an Orthodox persuasion....
Nor possibly their own countries in 20 years time....and what has qualification to do with anything especially, or certain teams in green would have given up long ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
As you alluded to, it's access to teams which help them achieve relative professional status and to be fair to the North if they still have a team by the middle of the century, they may be very glad of any eligible pick-ups along the way.
That's one of the very few sensible things you've posted on here.....:eek:Quote:
One doesn't follow from the other, does it? You're just guessing, there's no real way of knowing how an individual case, or a few of them, will behave.
And similarly.
Quote:
I suspect many of them- even if settling locally, having kids and grandkids etc.- may choose to remain 'neutral'. Political opinions are a choice btw, not for others to determine as inappropriate unless they are illegal.
Our aim should be to move beyond respectability- finishing second or third- to progress, ie second and the play-offs. Wales have done that recently, ditto Latvia, the similarly-sized Slovenia manage it regularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Er, the border's real not notional. Its effect on, say, a Polish immigrant wanting to get involved in local politics in NI is that they just can't easily join most of the mainstream Dublin or London parties. Because they don't organise locally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
I agree their 'baggage' is likely to be different, ie they won't have grown up with the ingrained attitudes of NI. My point about football eligibilty was simply that since pretty much every footballer from NI is eligible to play for two international sides, people who qualify for a third aren't likely to be stand out- or be any more 'mercenary'- than the rest.Quote:
Those immigrants aren't, er, carrying the same amount of baggage, per chance....
Why? Clearly Poland's long-term record in international football is better than NI's, but that isn't the only criterion a dual-qualified player might use when deciding which offer to accept. If his priority is to simply to play international football, we offer it more readily than they do because of the limited pool to choose from.Quote:
Comparing records over the last 50 years or more would make more sense
Plenty of other Catholic-background locals are obviously quite happy to play for NI. You're assuming that not only do these notional Polish wunderkinds share your political prejudices, but that they'd put them before their footbal career.Quote:
Plus guessing given the choice, a nominally Catholic Pole would be less keen on playing for the North, just like some of the locals....
Indeed. Paramilitary organisations and football in the community schemes don't tend to overlap.Quote:
loyalist paramilitaries have not exactly embraced the ethos of 'Football For All' in their approach to outsiders!
Let's not go down this route of football for all seeing as it's the FAI that seeks to recruit young Catholics from the North to ensure that no Catholic players can play for the North. Hardly an embrace of any sort of cross-community scheme.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Ironically the FAI's current activities are likely to lead to a Protestant Northern team and a Catholic southern team, and the media in all their idiocy will probably blame the north when any blame will lie squarely with the FAI and their sectarian selection policy. :)
Rubbish - just because those that have come on board from the North are generally Catholic or so we're told dosent mean that the team is composed exclusively of Catholic players.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
Down here most of us dont give a monkey's what religion you are or whether you're nationalist or loyalist because it dosent preoccupy or daily lives the way it does yours.
I dont know the religion or politics of my next door neighbour never mind what the affiliations of the national team players are. Bottom line is I couldnt care less.
The sooner all of ye in the North figure that one out the better for all of ye up there.
Cant understand how a nation can go through their whole existence wanting to "take out" their neighbour because of their creed or colour.
It embarrasses me when I'm abroad and people ask do the Catholic and Protestants still kill each other in Ireland. The answer I give them is it was never my war and never will be.
The situation in the North is a joke in this day and age and why politics and religion is even being discussed on this forum is another joke.
Get over with ye're bigotry and get a life.
We don't give a monkey's either, but it's kind of hard to breed a cross community team whenever the FAI are engaged in a sectarian selection policy to try and attract all catholic players away.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
This is the fact of the matter. You won't see the FAI knocking on the door of someone born on the Shankill to see if they'll defect. Why? because they're not catholic.
How do you know?
I'm sure if someone from the Shankill expressed an interest in joining us he'd be welcomed the same way as anybody else and more importantly would be welcomed by the fans.
I am in agreement that something needs to be done to protect ye're squad with regard to players defecting - like lowering the age that they commit etc.
But at the moment no rules have been broken.
As regards ye not giving a monkey's about a players beliefs dont make me laugh - that's why ye practically have a Berlin wall erected in Belfast,and in Derry the city is almost split in two to keep ye apart - what a society.
By the way Alan Kernaghan was from good Northern Ireland Protestant stock.
I very much doubt there is any sectarian motive in the FAI's selection policy. To suggest that the FAI are acting in a sectarian way in all this, is to suggest that they wouldn't want a protestant in the NI setup to declare for the ROI. The fact that the players who have wanted to make the switch, have thus far been Catholics, says something about the fault line in Northern society, but all the FAI are doing is picking the best side they possibly can. Its got nothing to do with their religion. The FAI are being no more sectarian by picking Shane Ferguson, than the GFA were being racist when they picked Kevin Prince Boateng.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
People here are trying to say that Northern catholics defect because we're a bigotted team up here. If such nonsense is allowed to be spouted then I see no issue with me highlighting the south's sectarian selection policy.
The only one spouting sectarianisn is you.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
You keep on about the FAI and a so called sectarian policy - where's your proof. We are an all-inclusive country and I'm sure the FAI is the same.
You live down here so I'm sure you have first hand experience of life down here.
If players from the North want to play for us it's their choice and if the FAI are taking advantage of this, there is nothing to stop them doing so under the current rules - no matter what the players beliefs are.
As I said if Jonny or Corey Evans wanted to play for us noone would have a problem with it.
I would say that its as simple as the players wanting to play for the team that they supported (and probably family and friends) as they were growing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
I would welcome any player from any background that wants to play for Ireland as long as they are eligible. I am an all round athiest (both protestant and catholic and all other religions:D) so the fairy in the sky/mumbo jumbo stuff does'nt come into it for me.
This I have no issue with. If you read posts from me both here and elsewhere you'll see that I've even defended the players that switch for this reason. I am not a bigot, I'm a northern born protestant who would have no issue attending GAA games, going to croke park etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
My issue is with people like ArdeeBhoy spouting his tripe.
Fair dues - I wouldn't be caught dead at a GAA matchQuote:
Originally Posted by awec
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
I've never actually went to one, but I'd have no aversion to doing so.