Sam Allardyce

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I don't think Sam would be suited for Ireland. Some of Ireland's greatest strength's is in attack. I think he'd be far better suited to a team of entirely average players like Scotland who need to be taught to play a technical percentage game to frustrate their more gifted opposition. Ireland don't need to play like that.

I could see Sam going very conservative. Carsley and S.Reid in the centre both holding back. Duff and Reid spreading plays on the wing. Ireland further up with the intention that maybe he'd pop up and score against the run of play. Maybe keane on his own up front.

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Scotland have a side that is equal if not better than ours. Look at Gordon, Hutton, Ferguson, Brown, McFadden, Maloney to name but a few who would get into our squad, and most of them our team.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

Having read the arguments for and against the potential appointment of Allardyce, I feel it boils down to this;

There are many Ireland fans who believe we have players of good technical ability and want to see good football delivered to them. Are supports of this theory (eirebhoy being one) willing to sacrifice qualification in favour of the side playing nice, attractive football, but ultimately unable to yield results.

The other side to this is that most feel Allardyce could indeed do a decent job for Ireland. But for a bad spell at Newcastle, and lets face it, he's not the only one to have struggled there, his track record is quite impressive. A sustained period of success with a side containg a few quality (Jasskelainen, Nolan, Ben Haim, Diouf), must mostly mediocre players (see Ireland), almost certainly ensure he would do a job with our national side. The question is whether this job, which may involve playing unattractive, long ball, vicious football, is worth sacrificing some of our more intelligent footballers.

My opinion, for what its worth is that I would prefer to be going to South Africa 2010, at whatever cost. We've had enough of failure, and we as fans deserve success, by whatever means possible.

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I don’t think your synopsis is quite correct Livehead. It’s just not as simple as “play primitively and qualify” or “play pretty and fail”. In any event, international football is refereed very differently to English football. Rule implementation on the continent has clearly moved to favour skillful players.

An incoming manager must get 2 things right:

Uniting & motivating the squad; instilling confidence
Best utilization of the resources we have, figuring how best to compensate for our weaknesses

My instinct is that until a genuinely competitive central midfielder emerges we may need an extra body in midfield and rely on a lone striker, a breaker from midfield and the wide players getting forward, but all in the context of playing at a good tempo with the ball played to feet.

Allardyce seems to be a “system manager” i.e., he knows how he wants to play and builds his team accordingly. Someone like Houllier would be better equipped to assess what we have and how best to configure the team or attribute roles to certain players.

allardyce would bring organisation and thats what we lack and its what young players need . he would do a great job for ireland and he would bring a breath of fresh air to fai, only thing is would fai fund his array of back room staff?

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Originally Posted by Oink

More on topic: I don't think Allardyce is a hoof the ball merchant anyway, Bolton played some nice football and he picked skillfull players like Anelka, Speed, Campo, Ben Haim, Diouf, Stelios, Fadiga and the one and only Jay-Jay Okocha ... they just scored a lot of goals from set peices and crosses which was just playing their strengths.

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If he doesn't play long ball football I find it very strange that every one of his Bolton players from last season have a better pass success rate since he left. Their average pass success rate has gone up from 66% to 73%. That's a huge difference. At the same time Newcastle's average pass success rate has dropped from 74% to 71.5%. The sign that the players are obviously trying riskier (ie. long) passes under Sam.

I'm not 100% against Allerdyce though and would take him over most names linked to the job.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I don’t think your synopsis is quite correct Livehead. It’s just not as simple as “play primitively and qualify” or “play pretty and fail”. In any event, international football is refereed very differently to English football. Rule implementation on the continent has clearly moved to favour skillful players.

An incoming manager must get 2 things right:

Uniting & motivating the squad; instilling confidence
Best utilization of the resources we have, figuring how best to compensate for our weaknesses

My instinct is that until a genuinely competitive central midfielder emerges we may need an extra body in midfield and rely on a lone striker, a breaker from midfield and the wide players getting forward, but all in the context of playing at a good tempo with the ball played to feet.

Allardyce seems to be a “system manager” i.e., he knows how he wants to play and builds his team accordingly. Someone like Houllier would be better equipped to assess what we have and how best to configure the team or attribute roles to certain players.

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I'm posing the question of:

Would people prefer to play attractive, pretty football and fail to qualify or would they take long ball, in your face football with a better chance of qualifying?

From reading some peopels opiions, it seems they would prefer the former which has suprised me, although I may have failed to read between the lines correctly!

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I really don't understand why the players opinions have been sought over the new manager. You appoint the man with the best cv and with a good track record. What you don't do is go and ask a few players opinions about who they would like to see get the job. These are the same players who have failed us over the last 5 years.

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Spot on livehead. And these same senior players who may not be around in 3/4 yrs time. It doesn;t make sense to me.

Another thing about Allardyce and the extra staff, is this the same type of approach that the players, wrongly imo, rejected under the Kerr regime. I remember one particular negative Richard Dunne interview shortly after Kerr was released harping on about this thing.

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Originally Posted by drinkfeckarse

While I agree with your point, Emre has underperformed for Newcastle.

Emre has the technical ability to dictate a game but other than a few nice touches and flicks here and there, he consistently stays on the fringes of a game.

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Stephen Ireland is consistently on the fringes of the game too. Emre came off the bench this season, scored a goal and set up another. He started the next game and set up a goal. Again he set up another goal in the following game. He was then dropped to the bench. He has started 5 games this season and set up more goals than anyone else at Newcastle. He's clearly their most creative player imo but that's not good enough for Sam. I'd certainly be fitting Emre in the team somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I don’t think your synopsis is quite correct Livehead. It’s just not as simple as “play primitively and qualify” or “play pretty and fail”. In any event, international football is refereed very differently to English football. Rule implementation on the continent has clearly moved to favour skillful players.

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Exactly. We've outclassed plenty of teams in the last 3 or 4 years by playing pure football. Unfortunately that was mainly in friendlies but I think it's a psychological thing more than the opposition not giving 100%. The win in Amsterdam being the one I mention all the time because Holland did not take that match lightly and we hardly hit a long ball all night. We were class in friendlies under Kerr but the players were extremely nervous when it came to the real thing, especially after we went ahead. We're certainly good enough if we get the right manager.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I'm posing the question of:

Would people prefer to play attractive, pretty football and fail to qualify or would they take long ball, in your face football with a better chance of qualifying?

From reading some peopels opiions, it seems they would prefer the former which has suprised me, although I may have failed to read between the lines correctly!

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Do you believe that the "up and at them" tactic is still viable these days? YOu seem to be saying that this tactic is the only viable one for legitimate success for teams like Ireland?

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I'm posing the question of:

Would people prefer to play attractive, pretty football and fail to qualify or would they take long ball, in your face football with a better chance of qualifying?

From reading some peopels opiions, it seems they would prefer the former which has suprised me, although I may have failed to read between the lines correctly!

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If the question was that simple I'd prefer to maximise our chance of qualifying, it's just that I think the question is flawed!

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Originally Posted by amaccann

Do you believe that the "up and at them" tactic is still viable these days? YOu seem to be saying that this tactic is the only viable one for legitimate success for teams like Ireland?

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I believe it is still viable, certainly. I also feel it would offer us more of a chance of success than 'playing football'. If we were to 'play football' against each team in our qualification group to the best of our ability and the opposition were to 'play football' to the best of their ability then i doubt very much that we would qualify.

Let's just assume that Sam or whoever comes to the job gets the playing style right.

Just as important though is the interaction with the players. Big Jack was very authoritative but the players he had were grown ups who could handle his management style.

From the relatively little I know of Sam I think he'd be in the same camp.

How would this go down with the type of personality we have in the team now?

I suspect they'd close up.

I know Houllier had a reputation for poor man management but I think, just like Eriksson seems to have done at City, that his articulate, more measured approach is what these guys would respond better too. In terms of personaility I actually think Jol is the best equipped to get our players united and motivated, I just think Houllier is more adept tactically.

Houllier & Jol are still my top 2 candidates.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Let's just assume that Sam or whoever comes to the job gets the playing style right.

Just as important though is the interaction with the players. Big Jack was very authoritative but the players he had were grown ups who could handle his management style.

From the relatively little I know of Sam I think he'd be in the same camp.

How would this go down with the type of personality we have in the team now?

I suspect they'd close up.

I know Houllier had a reputation for poor man management but I think, just like Eriksson seems to have done at City, that his articulate, more measured approach is what these guys would respond better too. In terms of personaility I actually think Jol is the best equipped to get our players united and motivated, I just think Houllier is more adept tactically.

Houllier & Jol are still my top 2 candidates.

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I feel Kerr was tactically aware and fell into the boat of someone who knew a great deal about the opposition and was very studious in his preparations. We all know what the players made of that approach.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I believe it is still viable, certainly. I also feel it would offer us more of a chance of success than 'playing football'. If we were to 'play football' against each team in our qualification group to the best of our ability and the opposition were to 'play football' to the best of their ability then i doubt very much that we would qualify.

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But I think that is as much a question of confidence as anything else. And not just confidence in the players, but confidence that the tactics and gameplan are there. So even if the tactic is a patient passing game, a middling team will be able to do so & do so well if the manager is doing his job right.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I feel Kerr was tactically aware and fell into the boat of someone who knew a great deal about the opposition and was very studious in his preparations. We all know what the players made of that approach.

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Isn't Sam's approach the same as Kerr's, just even more negative? He spends hours lecturing the players on how to stop the opposition. He has half of Durham's maths department working for Newcastle!

From topday's Guardian / Irish Times, and I read it before too:

His squad grew bored during interminable team meetings about how "to stop" opponents, and one brave player once asked: "But what do you want us to do when we're on the ball?"

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Isn't Sam's approach the same as Kerr's, just even more negative? He spends hours lecturing the players on how to stop the opposition. He has half of Durham's maths department working for Newcastle!

From topday's Guardian / Irish Times, and I read it before too:

His squad grew bored during interminable team meetings about how "to stop" opponents, and one brave player once asked: "But what do you want us to do when we're on the ball?"

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I'm not too sure whether the two approaches can be compared. I have a deep rooted feeling that Allardyce could bring us success, more so than most of the other manager's being mentioned for the role. Anyway, he probably wouldn't be interested anyway!!!

Yeh but don't read too much into isolated quotes like that. It's only the other day Nicky Butt was begging the board to stick with him.

I think we would all agree that we would like to see our team pass like arsenal while winning games away from home, but thats not going to happen, We need a manager that has a game plan. And for this nonsense that players dont like the approach of actually being prepared for a game that might make the difference of going to a major tournament, then our national team is in bigger trouble than we think. These players watch hours of pro zone a week and an hour of watching a bulgaria match isnt too much too ask for. I think Allardyce will play to them teams abilities there will be no Keogh playin right mid or any other shambolic tactics, he will cover players perfromance in their league games. Id sacrifice fancy football for a team to be proud of away from home instead of getting humilated and hurt that we got beaten by Cyprus 5-2. Think its time we got a pro in not a mickey mouse selection. Whether ye like it or not hes managed in supposedly the best league in wthe world and finished 6th with a mediocre team. Whats Hodgson,Venables,and Houllier done with his resources, And as for Newcastle give him another year you would of seen a difference, he inherited a poision chalice!

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

It's not so much that, but I think it's more a case of playing like that would be playing to our strengths. Look at our best midfield options. S.Reid, A.Reid, Ireland, McGeady, Duff, Hunt. These are guys who can't defend for the life of them, lets not let their talents go to waste by playing Carsley's and Kilbanes instead of them.

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Inadvertantly you have juse made a very good and important point. You have given a list of people you and many others would like to see in the side. You have then given the names of two people who in many people's eyes should not be playing for Ireland. But you're right, the first list of names contain player's who can't defend (although I would disagree with S.Reid who is athletic and gets back and forward). If we were to play all of our creative and attacking players we would get ripped apart. Carsley is a shoe in no matter who comes in. His form for Everton this season has been phenomenal. They can afford to play attacking flair players such as Arteta and Cahill as he is there to protect them. We need a manager who is able to get the balance right. That balance between gun-ho outstanding creativity that fails to achieve 3 points and defensive, long ball, boring football that may get results but is tedious on the eye.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

It's not so much that, but I think it's more a case of playing like that would be playing to our strengths. Look at our best midfield options. S.Reid, A.Reid, Ireland, McGeady, Duff, Hunt. These are guys who can't defend for the life of them, lets not let their talents go to waste by playing Carsley's and Kilbanes instead of them.

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Please can we all agree that ciaran shouldnt be the next manager.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I believe it is still viable, certainly. I also feel it would offer us more of a chance of success than 'playing football'. If we were to 'play football' against each team in our qualification group to the best of our ability and the opposition were to 'play football' to the best of their ability then i doubt very much that we would qualify.

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Why is that? Poland topped a group containing Portugal, Serbia, Finland and Belgium. Their captain is Celtic striker Zurawski and they have him playing in midfield. Rasiak of Southampton is a regular. They've 4 players playing in Ukraine, Belgium, Russia and Austria and the rest are playing in the Polish league who'd all be playing in the top leagues if they got the chance. Poland still play a good passing game.

As I said earlier, if we can outclass Holland, Portugal and Croatia by playing excellent football in friendlies with a weaker team than we have now, surely we can play at a decent standard in the competitive stuff.

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Originally Posted by The Owls

This is just getting stupid, we are becoming just like the british! Ye are all up your own arses, whens the last time Ireland had played flowing football. When we have tried it didnt work! Let give Allardyce a crack. Hes the best option we have out of a very bad bunch, but lets not forget we have been a very bad team for a long long time. Im sick of watching Ireland go out and perform like a bunch of donkeys, We have some good players thats it nothing more. Shays been poor for newcastle hes lost alot of confidence because he plays behind a ****e defence for both club and country. Steve Finnan is well past his best but still good. dyle is grafter nothing special. Thats all we have grafters. Wake up we dont have quality players we need a manager that can get the best out of our team. Allardyce at Bolton.

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Where was the graft against Cyprus, San Marino, Slovakia and Wales?