Brian Kerr Documentary

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Originally Posted by klein4

On the McCarthy v Kerr thing....you can't quote McCarthy's stats without taking into account a top of his game Keane's contribution to some of them big games.(Croatia,Holland,Portugal). We always struggled without him in the team.

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Shock horror as team doesn't perform as well without its star player! Do you want to look at Kerr's stats without Keane?!

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Originally Posted by klein1

and Ireland were terrible against Spain in the WC.

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Nonsense. We were outplayed for the first 45 minutes or so and outplayed them for the last hour or so. It was a great performance both in terms of the quality of football played at times and the fact that we showed great resolve to come back from behind - a feature of McCarthy's tenure. When we went behind under Kerr - France at home and Switzerland away - we died and showed no inkling that we knew how to get back into the match.

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Originally Posted by klein1

Making Iceland out to be some world beaters is a bad joke!

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Emmm...how did we do this? We beat them 4-2 away. OK, we slipped up at home, but this was a team who, in their next campaign, were challenging for qualification and were unlucky to lose in Paris (went 2-1 up in the second half there). We didn't make Iceland look to be world beaters. We may have made them look semi-decent, but then that's what they were.

The documentary didn't really tell us anything. The only thing I learned was his excuse for playing 5 across the middle after we went 2-0 against Israel when Robbie had to be substituted. Elliott had been poor in training and therefore he wasn't going to play him. Strangely enough 4 days later he starts against the Faroes and is our best player. Must have improved greatly with the extra couple of days training :eek:

Kerr made a mistake not playing him and refused to admit it and gave a pretty poor excuse.

Yep, and the 2nd worst Irish performance (Basel 1) (Cyprus the worst) and probably the most gutless was due to the fact that they had to practice on a bumby pitch in Switzerland. Give us a break :confused:

I think Kerrs biggest mistake was to pay so much time to the media. He had a job to do but he would have been happier smiling at the camera.

It was painful viewing and it told us what we all knew anyway, Kerr was a great man to organise a bus, hotel and a training ground, but he hadn't a clue when it came to tactics, the media, and motivation.. his excuses were lame and for the most part secondary ( his thinly disguised rub at the previous regimes poor logistics for our inept preformance away to switzerland in the European campaign was laughable) But the Journos especially Emmet Malone insights highlighted Kerr shortcomings succintly.. In the end he lost the players, media, the fans and the plot.

This documentary was about Failure and the need for change. It baffles me when people come on this board defending Kerr

Kerr made only a few mistakes but they were costly. At the end of the day he had to go. The program was well done last night. Kerr should have taken more of the blame though and admitted he made a few howlers (eg elliott).

I think we have all learnt a lot from the whole kerr thing. Things have defintely been sorted out a lot behind the scenes. Hopefully the next Eircom League manager to take over will have Champions League experience and wont be as naive.

The program seemed to make out that the rot started when John Delaney took over as president, five months after the France away match. This coincided with the match in Tel Aviv, and Kerr was intimating that there was a now sudden change in atmosphere at HQ, a lack of support which may have filtered to the team, staff and performances.

But the one match they left out of the program last night was the Faroe Islands in Lansdowne, which was soon after the Paris game. For me, it all started to go pear shaped in this game. We won 2-0 but it was an awful performance. Something seemed to go very wrong with the team that night.

Strange that they left out this one, I think it is significant to any analysis of what went wrong.

Documentarty was like watching a train crash. Some of the players should take a lot of the blame too, not just Kerr. I'd say one or two are sorry now, with the WC building up.

The thing that really peeves me about the whole Kavanagh for Robbie Keane sub at home to Israel was the fact that Kerr (as he said on the Late Late but not on the documentary) claimed that Stephen Elliott (as well as having a 'mare in training) had not enough experience internationally. How many times in friendly internationals did the visiting nations make numerous subs while we more or less stuck with the same eleven until very late in the game. All for the purpose of saying we beat Portugal or Romania or whatever. Results are important but not the most necessary thing about friendlies.The likes of Elliott and McGeady (against China) we given run outs in stoppage time. What's the point? Even though McGeady was out of the Celtic team in October when we played the Swiss and needed a goal, he would have offered something different, something unpredictable. I'm not saying that we should do a Sven and change the whole team and making life uneasy for all those who come on together trying to make an impression, but why not give them the odd start or dood run out. For example, the most pleasing thing about, say, the Croat game in Nov 04 was the performance of Elliott. This procedure should have been used more and hence have given us more options.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

The documentary didn't really tell us anything. The only thing I learned was his excuse for playing 5 across the middle after we went 2-0 against Israel when Robbie had to be substituted. Elliott had been poor in training and therefore he wasn't going to play him. Strangely enough 4 days later he starts against the Faroes and is our best player. Must have improved greatly with the extra couple of days training :eek:

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We didn't play 5 across the middle, we played 4-4-2 when Keane went off. Elliott had started 1 game in the last 2 months for Sunderland, he had a virus and wasn't himself in training. Kerr mentioned this before, it didn't just come out with this documentary. He said that he was a different player before the Faroes game. Kerr probably takes too much from what he see's in training though. It was poor decision not to bring on Elliott for Keane.

That was the freakiest match I've seen in years though. We really should have won 5-0. Matt Holland fouls someone in the middle of the pitch, they take a hopeful freekick and they somehow manage to score from a header outside the box. Given miskicks the ball out, it comes to an Israeli player, O'Shea is caught tugging at Benayoun, penalty. Before Keane went off that bald left winger walked his way down the wing and into our box. He hit the ball into the box but they failed to score. That was their 3 chances in the match. We had about 33 feckin chances (it felt like it the way I was up and down off my seat). We deserved to win that match. Luck didn't go our way. Luck went our way against Holland in Lansdowne and that's what happens in sport.

We'll always look for someone to blame when something freaky like that happens. Nobody knows whether that substitution drew us the game. You have to remember that Giles said on the 29th minute (2 minutes after Keane went off) that Israel have got back into this game in the last 10 minutes. They were no more dominant in their period where they got the goals than they were between 19-29th minute. They will always get some bit of possession obviously. At the time I didn't even think Holland's tackle was a foul. I didn't really moan because nobody, nobody was expecting them to score from a set piece in the middle of the park and a header outside the box. I'm always going on about Given miskicking the ball on the roll, that and O'Shea cost us the 2nd goal.

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i liked the bit about stephen elliot not being on form in training before the israel home game, therefore was not brought on!

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Did you notice the cruel edit in the background, (while Brian was saying this) camera shots of Elliot having a stormer in training.
I could identify with Kerr as the man watching the game,
sounds just like myself without the machine gun expletives of course:)

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It was painful viewing and it told us what we all knew anyway, Kerr was a great man to organise a bus, hotel and a training ground, but he hadn't a clue when it came to tactics, the media, and motivation.. his excuses were lame and for the most part secondary ( his thinly disguised rub at the previous regimes poor logistics for our inept preformance away to switzerland in the European campaign was laughable) But the Journos especially Emmet Malone insights highlighted Kerr shortcomings succintly.. In the end he lost the players, media, the fans and the plot.

This documentary was about Failure and the need for change. It baffles me when people come on this board defending Kerr

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reality bites, once again your name sums you up perfectly. agree wholeheartedly with this. its only certain ones though who do this, blinded by the same light as kerr ;)

I'm blinded by his excellent CV. If he came in to this job with an average CV I'd probably be agreeing with everyone else here. You don't win what he did without knowing your stuff tactically.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Shock horror as team doesn't perform as well without its star player! Do you want to look at Kerr's stats without Keane?!

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yes but dont go quoting statistics as proof of macarthys managerial ability when the fact that he had an at his peak keane having such an influence on those results.(he also had duff and denis irwin but didnt rate them enough to play them)he looked utterly clueless against russia away and swiss at home.a more accurate barometer of his managerial ability.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Nonsense. We were outplayed for the first 45 minutes or so and outplayed them for the last hour or so. It was a great performance both in terms of the quality of football played at times and the fact that we showed great resolve to come back from behind - a feature of McCarthy's tenure. When we went behind under Kerr - France at home and Switzerland away - we died and showed no inkling that we knew how to get back into the match..

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outplayed? two dubious penalties (one of which we managed to miss)put us back in the game. we did do well in first part of extra time but then we had a man extra so you would expect us to get something from it..(which we didnt)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Emmm...how did we do this? We beat them 4-2 away. OK, we slipped up at home, but this was a team who, in their next campaign, were challenging for qualification and were unlucky to lose in Paris (went 2-1 up in the second half there). We didn't make Iceland look to be world beaters. We may have made them look semi-decent, but then that's what they were.

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It was you who tried to imply earlier that Iceland werent actually a bad side.....they were. we made them look good by the manager sending a team out that didnt know what they were doing at home (never looked like scoring/best midfielder in premiership in central defence)or away(really struggled for that 4-2).
Fair enough if you didnt rate Kerr. Just dont use Macarthys tenure as a stick to beat him with as it is open to all the same criticisms that Kerrs stewardship was open to.

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Originally Posted by DubJohn

The program seemed to make out that the rot started when John Delaney took over as president, five months after the France away match. This coincided with the match in Tel Aviv, and Kerr was intimating that there was a now sudden change in atmosphere at HQ, a lack of support which may have filtered to the team, staff and performances.

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Whatever about the effect on the team, Delaney never wanted Kerr and it always was common knowledge that he had voted against him when he was on the interview panel. Delaney wanted Robson. All the spinning against Kerr began when Delaney took over. Regardless of your views on Kerr as Ireland Manager - the spinning and "reporting" was a disgrace, and no one in their right mind would want this job while the same people are about.

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Originally Posted by Dotsy

the crap arrangments made by the previous regime for the first match in Switzerland

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Did you notice that, after whining about the hotel in Basel (which was no different to Jury's really), he then booked the same hotel for the next Basel game?

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Originally Posted by klein4

yes but don't go quoting statistics as proof of McCarthy's managerial ability when the fact that he had an at his peak Keane having such an influence on those results.

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Compare Kerr and McCarthy then with and without Keane. You'll get the same results either way.

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Originally Posted by klein4

Outplayed? Two dubious penalties (one of which we managed to miss) put us back in the game. We did do well in first part of extra time but then we had a man extra so you would expect us to get something from it..(which we didnt)

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Dubious penalties?! The first one maybe - but with Duffer running at pace and cutting in, any touch would easily floor him. If you think the second one - when Hierro tried to take Quinn's shirt off - was dubious, you are at best deluded.

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Originally Posted by klein4

It was you who tried to imply earlier that Iceland werent actually a bad side.....they were.

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Explain then how this team - with players with Premiership experience and who drew with France, beat Russia, drew with the Ukraine away and were 2-1 up in Paris (lost 3-2 eventually; had they held on, they'd have been in the play-off at France's expense) in their next campaign - were a bad side. You can't use your ignorance to make points for you...

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

We didn't play 5 across the middle, we played 4-4-2 when Keane went off. .

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No we didn't. Duff wasn't pushed up front. He became a floater in midfield and away from his dangerous wing position behind the front man and ahead of the midfielders - perhaps 4-4-1-1 would be a better description.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Elliott had started 1 game in the last 2 months for Sunderland, he had a virus and wasn't himself in training. Kerr mentioned this before, it didn't just come out with this documentary. He said that he was a different player before the Faroes game. .

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A flight to the Faroes and a couple of days training and hey presto, he's a new man! Kerr bottled it by refusing to bring on a striker for a striker and decided "what we have, we hold (don't)".

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

That was the freakiest match I've seen in years though. We really should have won 5-0..

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Can't say we should have won 5-0 when they scored 2. The guy was allowed get a header on goal (sure on another day it might have gone wide but that's football) and it was a peno, albeit we should have got one for a similar challenge later. It shouldn't have come to that but for the mentality of the team and the changes.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Regardless of your views on Kerr as Ireland Manager - the spinning and "reporting" was a disgrace, and no one in their right mind would want this job while the same people are about.

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Spot on.

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Originally Posted by klein4

and Ireland were terrible against spain in the WC. anyone who remembers differently must have had the beer goggles on

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i'll argue that one with you. spain were 2nd favs for the whole competition when we played them and were full of players from the top leagues in the world. we easily matched them and only conceded one goal against them. apart from their two offside goal chances we created the better ones.... keane after 3 mins and again late in first half, duffer on a couple of occasions, and connolly in extra time are ones that immediately come to mind. we did enough to win that game. for the last 15mins of the 2nd half and the whole of extra time we were the only team trying to and capable of winning that game.... fact!!!

what is your definition of terrible?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Compare Kerr and McCarthy then with and without Keane. You'll get the same results either way....

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as always you miss the point totally...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Dubious penalties?! The first one maybe - but with Duffer running at pace and cutting in, any touch would easily floor him. If you think the second one - when Hierro tried to take Quinn's shirt off - was dubious, you are at best deluded.....

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they were two penalties you would be lucky to get on another day.but if you see two penalties and two goals disallowed domination then fair enough.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Explain then how this team - with players with Premiership experience and who drew with France, beat Russia, drew with the Ukraine away and were 2-1 up in Paris (lost 3-2 eventually; had they held on, they'd have been in the play-off at France's expense) in their next campaign - were a bad side. You can't use your ignorance to make points for you...

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what results did they get in the campaign we actually played them in? surely that would be of greater relevance? no??? I dont remember them being in contention at any stage.

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I'm blinded by his excellent CV.

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ive got an excellent cv as well, it doesnt mean i have a clue about what im doing though!!! its only when someone gets the job you REALLY LEARN what they know and in kerrs case i think we all did. nuff said on this really.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

No we didn't. Duff wasn't pushed up front. He became a floater in midfield and away from his dangerous wing position behind the front man and ahead of the midfielders - perhaps 4-4-1-1 would be a better description.

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Playing Robbie Keane can be described as a 4-4-1-1 aswell so. Duff played no deaper than Keane. It was the same formation when Keane went off. Duff moved up front (the position few of us like to see him play in but he did score and get MOTM in his previous 2 games for Ireland up front).

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

A flight to the Faroes and a couple of days training and hey presto, he's a new man! Kerr bottled it by refusing to bring on a striker for a striker and decided "what we have, we hold (don't)".

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I agree, he bottled it. Whatever about it being the wrong decision, it was not a defensive decision. Kavanagh is a box to box midfielder who would have averaged about 10 goals a season before he was used more as the holding midfielder. He replaced Kilbane in the centre, Kilbane replaced Duff on the left, Duff replaced Keane up front. Too many changes, probably the wrong decision, but not a defensive substitution.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Can't say we should have won 5-0 when they scored 2. The guy was allowed get a header on goal (sure on another day it might have gone wide but that's football) and it was a peno, albeit we should have got one for a similar challenge later. It shouldn't have come to that but for the mentality of the team and the changes.

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I said after that match it was the first time I could remember a player scoring a header from outside the box. A freak goal. What do they go and do? Score a similar goal against Switzerland. :) From the overrall play in that match we should have won 4 or 5 nil.

About Delaney and the media. I went up the Montclare hotel and read every word of the Sport section of the Irish Time before the Cyprus away match. The likes of Humphreys confirmed 3 or 4 times in that one newspaper that it was the FAI behind a lot of the media slating of Kerr. If anyone has a subscription to the Irish Times and can get the football articles from Saturday, 8th October maybe you could post them up. :)