Wes Hoolahan (M Cambridge Utd b.1982)

Playing for Ireland would have increased his profile, same as every other footballer. Of course there is a chance that he would be playing for a bigger club if he was playing against teams like Italy, France and Bulgaria. They are going to be playing in front of far more club managers and scouts than they would be playing at Ewood Park.

It is a disgrace that Hoolahan and Reid weren't getting in Irish squads when people (no disrespect) like Simon Cox and Andy Keogh were getting regular playing time.

They didn't have to be starting games. They could have been coming on early-to-mid second half of games instead of the bog standard players we were filling out our squads with, but in the Trapattoni regime no importance was placed on strategy during the course of a game; or any kind of alternative plan.

Substitutions were used woefully but I suppose someone will come up with 1 or 2 examples to the contrary as a response.

Hoolahan was poorly treated but Cox was just a flat-out better performer than Reid when he was being selected. Keogh never got regular gametime.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Hoolahan was poorly treated but Cox was just a flat-out better performer than Reid when he was being selected. Keogh never got regular gametime.

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What?

Reid had the same amount of goals in same amount of appearances - from midfield - and was class when he played for Ireland. Remember the Germany game when he was one of the best players on the park?

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

What?

Reid had the same amount of goals in same amount of appearances - from midfield - and was class when he played for Ireland. Remember the Germany game when he was one of the best players on the park?

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I do. Remember when he was overweight and unfit and got let go by poor Sunderland and Blackpool sides? I wanted Reid to play for Ireland as much as anyone post-Mainz, but he never backed up the column inches he got after that, not until the last 12 months.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Blogged about the difference in Norwich's results when Hoolahan starts here: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/

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By my calculation if he started every game they would get 17 more points in the season!!
You could perhaps argue he started the easier games but it's a pretty weak argument.
He has not played Chelsea or man city but he did play Liverpool and Man U and Arsenal and Everton.

He was playing well for that Sunderland side and he was playing well in The Championship too. I understand what you are saying but Reid has been playing better at club level than any number of players getting in the team ahead of him. Andrews was abysmal at Blackburn and he burned out after a good start at West Brom. Whelan has been in and out of the Stoke team, never reaching any degree of consistency until this season. Miller, Rowlands, Green... the less said the better. Cox and Walters have been mediocre and have managed to rack up an impressive tally of appearances and Cox was 5th or 6th choice striker at West Brom at one point.

It's obvious that Reid hasn't reached his potential but I don't think his weight has that much to with it - he's had injury problems too, which are re-occurring. He didn't get many complaints from club managers or trainers about his fitness levels. And Whelan.... the guy's lack of pace is shameful and he has got caught out because of it loads of times.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

He was playing well for that Sunderland side and he was playing well in The Championship too. I understand what you are saying but Reid has been playing better at club level than any number of players getting in the team ahead of him. Andrews was abysmal at Blackburn and he burned out after a good start at West Brom. Whelan has been in and out of the Stoke team, never reaching any degree of consistency until this season. Miller, Rowlands, Green... the less said the better. Cox and Walters have been mediocre and have managed to rack up an impressive tally of appearances and Cox was 5th or 6th choice striker at West Brom at one point.

It's obvious that Reid hasn't reached his potential but I don't think his weight has that much to with it - he's had injury problems too, which are re-occurring. He didn't get many complaints from club managers or trainers about his fitness levels. And Whelan.... the guy's lack of pace is shameful and he has got caught out because of it loads of times.

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Reid had a couple of good spells for Sunderland and, during the first one at least, he really should have been picked but it didn't last and it wasn't just down to injuries. His current form goes to show just how good he could have been if he had looked after himself better. His athleticism or lack thereof was never a defining feature of his game, but it's beyond question that his weight has limited his effectiveness as a player and basically meant he would never be utilised in a flat 4-4-2 (obviously we can criticise the manager for not varying his tactics).

Miller never did it for Ireland but as far as I remember Trap discarded him pretty quickly too. Rowlands looked very promising when he played, Green did pretty well for Ireland playing in a role he has never played at club level and Andrews had an Indian summer that rightly led to a good few caps for Ireland. Reid could never have fulfilled the roles of any of those players because he's not physically able. If Whelan's lack of pace is shameful then no more needs to be said about Andy Reid - he's even slower again.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I do. Remember when he was overweight and unfit and got let go by poor Sunderland and Blackpool sides? I wanted Reid to play for Ireland as much as anyone post-Mainz, but he never backed up the column inches he got after that, not until the last 12 months.

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I don't think you can assert that Cox was performing better than Reid at that stage with any level of confidence. Reid wasn't in the greatest shape but he also wasn't terrible and Cox was bang average then much as he was throughout his ireland career.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I don't think you can assert that Cox was performing better than Reid at that stage with any level of confidence. Reid wasn't in the greatest shape but he also wasn't terrible and Cox was bang average then much as he was throughout his ireland career.

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OK, well, first of all, I don't think it's a direct comparison - when Cox was called up to Ireland, he was scoring goals as a striker for West Brom and Reid was a substitute for an awful Blackpool side. He was overweight and was being outplayed by poor Premier League players. I'm not going to defend Trap's ridiculous decision to play him as a winger in a 4-4-2, but it would have been even more ludicrous to play an out of shape Reid there. Reid has really been an international option in the past 9 months, before that he was gash. Cox wasn't much better, but he showed up and whenever he was played in his natural position he scored goals.

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Originally Posted by as_i_say

No I wasn't blaming Trap for his club situation at all.

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What does this mean so?

"Maybe if he had given him a shaggin chance he'd be playing regularly for a team that wasnt struggling."

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Playing for Ireland would have increased his profile, same as every other footballer. Of course there is a chance that he would be playing for a bigger club if he was playing against teams like Italy, France and Bulgaria. They are going to be playing in front of far more club managers and scouts than they would be playing at Ewood Park.

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I can't think of one Irish footballer who has got a move to a bigger club on the back of their international performances since Trapattoni took charge? The only player I can think of that's even moved to a bigger club is McCarthy, and that was very much on the back of his Wigan performances under Martinez. That's not to say Hoolahan wasn't badly treated.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

What does this mean so?

"Maybe if he had given him a shaggin chance he'd be playing regularly for a team that wasnt struggling."

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Dunno. I appear to have had a garbled Trap moment myself.:confused2:

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I can't think of one Irish footballer who has got a move to a bigger club on the back of their international performances since Trapattoni took charge? The only player I can think of that's even moved to a bigger club is McCarthy, and that was very much on the back of his Wigan performances under Martinez. That's not to say Hoolahan wasn't badly treated.

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McGeady to Spartak?

That one occurred to me alright. He moved to a better league but not a bigger club. I doubt his international performances played a significant part anyway, he had been dropped for Liam Lawrence not long before joining.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I can't think of one Irish footballer who has got a move to a bigger club on the back of their international performances since Trapattoni took charge?

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Keith Fahey, duh.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

OK, well, first of all, I don't think it's a direct comparison - when Cox was called up to Ireland, he was scoring goals as a striker for West Brom and Reid was a substitute for an awful Blackpool side. He was overweight and was being outplayed by poor Premier League players. I'm not going to defend Trap's ridiculous decision to play him as a winger in a 4-4-2, but it would have been even more ludicrous to play an out of shape Reid there. Reid has really been an international option in the past 9 months, before that he was gash. Cox wasn't much better, but he showed up and whenever he was played in his natural position he scored goals.

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At no stage was Cox scoring or performing at club level when selected for Ireland. Trapattoni kept faith in him when he wasn't even getting into squads. Reid was only at Blackpool for about a month. I don't think Cox has ever had a good competitive game. This is partly attributable to the fact he was played out of position but I don't know how you could say Reid wouldn't be more useful played out of position. Cox is no faster than Reid and at least Reid can control the ball, pass it, cross it, link up and offer a set-piece threat. Cox scored a few goals in friendlies but on the whole, his positioning was very poor. Even Walters is better in that regard. Really strange how he was getting picked ahead of Long (and Doyle) at one stage. I even think Murphy and certainly Stokes would have been of more use but they have about half-a-dozen starts between them.

If only Trapattoni showed a modicum of the faith he showed Walters, Cox and Green in players like Reid and Stokes.

I don't think anyone will disagree that Reid and Hoolahan were under appreciated by Trap, to say the least. Personally I think it's a damning indictment of Trap's philosophy that neither was ever considered even as a squad candidate for most of his tenure.

The funny thing is that Liam Miller played very well against Nigeria at Craven Cottage and that bought him a few subsequent games/ squad selections. So, even a lightweight natural passer of the ball could find favour with Trap at least for a limited time.

Frankly I think it beggars belief that a manager can overlook Reid and Hoolahan from even at least squad selection for 5-6 years.

However I think it's a red herring to criticise Cox and Walters in the same breath, even if both were picked in positions or roles that the aforementioned could/ should have occupied. Cox and Walters have both done OK when picked in their preferred positions. It's not their fault they were picked in roles that required honest graft rather than instinctive talent. The blame lies in one place only for that.

Edit: I don't think TOWK was criticising Cox and Walters. I think one of the most infuriating things about Trap's tenure was his failure to see how Reid and Hoolahan could have better played the role he wanted of Cox and Walters. In hindsight, Trap's complete inability to even consider these guys in any circumstance is probably the most damning thing one can say about him. So, I'm agreeing with TOWK, albeit less convinced by Stokes's potential impact. In fairness to McGeady, one of TOWK's betes noirs, he never cited tiredness for being unable to play for Ireland.

What's with the trend of all threads revolving around Andy Reid?

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

What's with the trend of all threads revolving around Andy Reid?

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It's his significantly greater gravitational pull obviously...

Hoolahan starts today behind Elmander and Van Wolfsmickey. Not sure how that will work out, hopefully with Elmander going wide so Wes can play 10. No room for out of favour Pilkington.