Mayo would be a great addition to the League. There's already a nice little ground there to get them started, about a 10 minute walk from the train station. There's not much in terms of bars or restaurants close by though.
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Mayo would be a great addition to the League. There's already a nice little ground there to get them started, about a 10 minute walk from the train station. There's not much in terms of bars or restaurants close by though.
What facilities has the proposed ground, is it another venue with a perimeter surround and fans only able to stand around on all four sides?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
If it's Celtic Park Castlebar, the capacity is about 1,500 with a small length of terracing on the club house side and a low wall perimeter pitch surround.
We do not need more underdeveloped grounds in the league.
Stadium Nerd/Groundhopper that I am, I googled "Umbro Park" (new sponsor) and it appears to be just a pitch with one small seated stand holding maybe 300(?) and, er, that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
Tbf there is also quite a big complex presumably housing changing rooms, toilets, meeting rooms, catering, bar etc; also an adjacent pitch and a reasonably big car park. But those presumably were built for the benefit of the Mayo FA, without doing anything much for paying spectators actually watching the match - i.e. no terracing, cover, turnstiles(?), segregation, media etc. While there doesn't appear to be a perimeter fence, never mind wall round the playing area?
And as noted earlier, it's not too far out the road from the train station, which is on the convenient side of the town, but otherwise it's in the countryside outside Castlebar, not the town itself.
https://earth.google.com/web/search/..._________8BEAA
Different ground, apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
Which brings up another aspect of such new County teams like Mayo FC and Kerry FC, i.e. that they basically press the Pause button on any hopes of rising to Senior status which ambitious existing clubs like Tralee Dynamos or Castlebar Celtic may have, since these new teams will inevitably attract wider support from the county itself, at least to start with.
Which is fine if the County teams succeed and become established over the long term, but what if they don't? You'll be back to where you started, except that those pre-existing clubs will be even further away from getting a foot on the ladder, if not discouraged completely.
Good thing we have plenty of clubs with highly developed grounds and stadiums waiting in the wings to join the third tier…Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearer
Beggars can’t be choosers and facilities will be minimal in the new division for at least the short term whoever gets picked.
Except that these clubs will be hard pushed enough to find the money for essential operating costs alone. Meaning that if they should generate extra revenues over and above that, and it's a choice between paying extra for managers' and players' wages to keep them competitive on the field versus putting money into facilities off it, which do you think they will choose?Quote:
Originally Posted by cobhlad
And assuming it's the former, what sanction will the FAI have to compel them to fix up their facilities instead? Fines? Points deductions? Expulsion from the League? As you said yourself, beggars cannot choose. So that the short term will drift into the medium term and then to the long term.
(Aside from all of which, to construct a modest and serviceable ground to modern standards, holding regular crowds of maybe 500-1,000, and occasional crowds of 1,500, realistically won't leave you with any change from €1m these days. And where are these clubs going to find that?)
I know you're constantly talking about the need for a propoer pyramid in the LOI (which I haven't seen anyone on here say shouldn't be the aim), but you're also continually negative about the prospect of any new clubs joining the league. Even with a pyramid system, all the issues raised above would remain in place - so your argument is one for no expansion at all really.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The FAI should be engaging with government about the complete restructure of Irish football, with enabling grants for facilities as part of that. Clubs can also themselves independently bid for money from multiple sources as well. Not all is doom and gloom re the expansion of club football into new areas. It's still early days, but Kerry have shown that it is indeed possible. And the league is in a very different place now than it was even 5-10yrs ago when there was a revolving door of clubs who were probably never going to last the distance.
Would ya not concentrate on improving the pub league north of the border?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I'm not arguing "for" anything, merely observing that in the rush to find a solution, any solution, the FAI here seem to be cobbling together something for the short term which will likely only mean greater problems in the medium-to-long term, rather than fewer.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I mean, what is the purpose* of this new Third Tier? It cannot be to make it easier for other existing clubs to get a foot on the ladder from below (it won't), nor can it realistically provide for the normal promotion and relegation between tiers one, two and three, since any club climbing up from the Third would most likely fail to cope in the FD, never mind the Prem, while any club getting relegated from the FD could easily go bust entirely. And as for future Tiers Four, Five and Six etc...
* - My own suspicion is that it may be something for Canham to be able to point to as an "achievement" on his CV, so that he can bugger off before it goes the way of the 'A' League? While Courell, Cooke and the rest of the FAI can say to the government (and UEFA) that at least they're doing something
No argument from me about any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
But looking from the outside, this proposed new Third Tier looks to be more of a sticking plaster than the major surgery ("complete restructure") which you quite rightly point out needs to be done.
In a number of ways yes, but basically only in respect of the same 18 or 20 Senior clubs who've been around for decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
While just because the previous attempt at expansion failed (i.e. completely new clubs), and the one before that (i.e. 'A' League), doesn't automatically mean that this latest attempt must therefore succeed.
And even if I'm wrong - always very possible tbf :) - and this Third Tier does become established, I could only see it entrenching, not alleviating, the present impossibility of mobility up and down the various levels in ROI, alongside the wider opportunity for expanding the game to new areas which such latter process normally brings.
And that's before the hoary old subject of the playing Calendar, which could prove to be the final straw for progressive clubs outside the Third, causing them finally to say: "That's it, lads, there's nothing here for us at all."
There are, indeed, many problems with the IL set-up, but in this respect at least (Pyramid, expansion etc), we are addressing them, and reasonably successfully, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
As are the leagues in England, Scotland and Wales, to one degree or another, in ways which the LOI is plainly struggling to adopt.
I know Castlebar Train station so that is handy if Mayo FC get in. Whether it will happen all depends on Dundalks fate I suppose!
"If Mayo get in". Do you mean get into the FD for 2025?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
For I thought the proposal was for Mayo FC to get into a new Third Tier in 2026? Which shouldn't be affected by Dundalk unless they went out of existence and needed to be replaced in the FD (by Mayo) in an emergency.
P.S. In terms of branding and identity etc, could they not have come up with a better name than plain Mayo FC? I mean, Kerry surely missed an opportunity for Kerry Kings FC (or somesuch), though I'm not sure what Mayo could attach: "Mayo God Help Us FC"?
The Kings vs the Gods has a certain ring to it! :D
The Kerry Kings? 1980s America called, and woud like it's naming convention for High School sports teams back.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
What's wrong with just plain old Kerry? Or Mayo? Just like Coleraine. And Larne. And Bangor. And Ards....
P.S. Surely it would have to be Cinco de Mayo FC :D
The difference being that Coleraine, Larne, Bangor, Ards etc have had a century or more to establish their identity, but maybe you're right?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
And if you do feel that "Kings" is too corny* etc, maybe just a simple "Kerry County FC" (or "Mayo County FC")? That is already well known football suffix, as in Derby/Stockport/Newport/Ross etc. Of course it might annoy GAA supporters, who might claim that they've got the copyright on it, but if anything that would be a plus point!
"C'mon County!"
* - With you on "Klub Kildare FC", mind - dreadful. :embarrassed:
That's not a big achievement. Ye have basically organised glorified junior clubs in a tiny area. There's a separate thread for the Irish league.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Fair comment. MH Park was fortunate due permitted. In fairness to everyone in the club, they put in the agreed work on lighting, pitch and main stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shearer
The pyramid is overstated. If the goal is a vibrant professional league, what is the benefit of a saturation of clubs in an area competing against each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
A Mayo FC can attract larger base support than two or three clubs competing against each other.
There is no one size that fits all. Another area might be different. An Athlone - Mullingar rivalry might suit the Midlands.
An elite licence requires investment. Clubs who qualify for an elite licence, which should include academy structures, should be within an elite pyramid.
The local junior district league up to regional level, if not national level, should be a junior - intermediate pyramid.
People can support and be involved with their elite club but also support and be involved with their local junior or intermediate club. Both can benefit?
So overstated pretty much every country in Europe operates one?Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Our lack of a pyramid is what caused three Galway clubs in the First Division btw. A pyramid - promotion on merit - would have made it much harder
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...612523296.html
Among the 16 conditions is a requirement for the FAI to carry out a “comprehensive review of league affiliate structures” at amateur level.
This must “include a review of grassroots league structures to deliver stable and geographically logical leagues for women, men and children”.
This is how the FAI can make the league's and club's restructure into a pyramid system; no change, no money.
Says the poster who brought the IL into this thread discussing the LOI Third Tier (#1288) :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
There is one decent seated stand in Milebush Park, a good sized car park, perimeter fencing all the way around the pitch and ample space to develop a nice ground right on the outskirts of Castlebar town.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
They don't have much in the way of media gantry, turnstiles, or floodlights on their main pitch, but it wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg to bring it up to First Division standards. It's not a million miles away from being a similar kind of ground to Ferrycarrig Park in Wexford.
A pyramid is definitely needed. I see a dual pyramid as the approach required. A pyramid structure within elite licencing for first team clubs like a Mayo FC that would have academy structures in place. LoI second teams also welcome to join if they wish. Ideally progressive city clubs like Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers, St. Pat's, Bohs, Derry, Galway, Waterford and Cork would join that tier if they see value in a second team between academy and senior level.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Outside of the elite pyramid then, there should be a separate pyramid from district leagues up to regional leagues.
Buenos Aires, a city of just over 3m, has over a dozen f-t professional clubs, some of them giants. Uruguay's population is 3.4m, half of them in Montevideo, supports two professional league divisions of 30 teams, with another two divisions/37 clubs below which are p-t or amateur, with promotion and relegation between the four.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
London has a population approx twice that of ROI. It has 7 x PL clubs alone, another 5 in the EFL and more in the fifth and sixth tiers (f-t and p-t), and is surrounded by a host of other clubs - Luton, Watford, Crawley, Stevenage, Bromley, Sutton etc within close distance. Lancashire is another hotbed of football, also with loads of clubs.
By contrast, the whole of East Anglia supports just two big(ish) clubs, while Cornwall and the West of England is also very sparsely represented (rugby country), and North Wales (decidedly not rugby country) really only has Wrexham worth the name.
Meaning mere "saturation" (i.e. concentration of clubs in a given area) can hardly be the problem, nor "magicing up" new clubs in areas which have never previously shown much enthusiasm for the game the solution.
It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected. The connection is literally the point of the pyramid.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Just allowing clubs like Mayo to enter because they asked is what caused the Salthill/Mervue/Galway issue a few years back (and relegation is what would have fixed it)
I said this before, but I think it is worth saying again, but there is logic in advancing a club like Mayo into LOI.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
There is a reason why football is more developed in areas around LOI clubs, and picking a 'hub' to develop has merit to help football in a non football region.
If you went straight into a pyramid system, regions that had a headstart to be more developed would just dominate those that are further behind, potentially stunting the growth in an unrepresented region, and leaving a concentration in another area.
Mervue and Salthill are good example of that.
A pyramid system should eventually be the end goal, but it can definitely exacerbate the unequal nature of Irish football, and creating bridges (baiscally knowledge centers) beforehand is, for me at least, building positively for the long term health of a pyramid.
With the proposed reduction (and possible complete elimination) of solidarity money to D1 clubs, entering senior football is going to be harder than ever. I am all for a proper pyramid but in the short term we're in danger of losing clubs from D1, so the idea of adding another tier seems incredibly fanciful.
The LOI has always had a huge issue with losing clubs, and between the wage spiral currently happening that is not being matched by income and the new imbalance of solidarity money- there are very serious questions on whether the LOI as we know it will be remotely viable.
Interesting to read in Kerry's Eye this morning that both Longford and Kerry have to formally apply for re-election to the League this season, similar to the system that applied in the EFL before 1987, so presumably the intention is that once the third tier is established, the bottom two FD clubs and the top senior club in each third tier section will face this procedure, with the two sides with the most votes returned for the following year?
But it didn't work with Kildare, Monaghan, Thurles, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tullamore, Cabinteely, Sporting Fingal, etc, etc - and arguably it hasn't worked with Kerry, given how bad they are and how that has to be a hamstring to them in terms of generating sustained interest in the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
Why would it be any different with Mayo?
Mervue and Salthill are not good examples of the weakness of a pyramid because they arose when there was no proper pyramid. They're examples of what happens when clubs put their hands up and ask to be elected without having earned it on the pitch, and without the option of being relegated again because they're rubbish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I dont subscribe to this idea at all.
Dalkey/Killiney in Dublin usen't have any demand for or interest in gah. Cuala GAA setting up has gradually grown over 30 years and is now a big deal there.
You induce demand in an area by "magicing up" a well run club in an area that otherwise isn't a stronghold, especially if its a major sport.
Except both Mervue and Salthill were promoted from the A Championship due to their performances on the pitch, the former winning a play-off, and the latter qualifying for one before Kildare resigned.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Mervue and Salthill split the support in an already small town. An absolute disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But they were only in the A Championship because there wasn't a pyramid. They put their hands up and were accepted into a division where, of course, the vast majority were ineligible for promotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
The A Championship, or the current proposal, isn't creating a pyramid. It's simply adding another layer on to the current failed system.
No they didn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by Buller
That actually proves my point not yours, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
The point being that you build a pyramid from the bottom up, using strong blocks on a solid foundation. In the case of football, the foundation is pre-existing interest in the game, with existing, ambitious clubs as the blocks. And even then it takes time.
Anyhow, from googling Cuala GAA, it seems they were formed half a century ago, from the merger of two existing clubs. And as you say yourself, it's taken 30 years of "gradual" growth* to get them where they are today.
How is that anything like Kerry FC, Mayo FC, two clubs which I believe never had an adult section? In their case, the equivalent to Cuala would actually be taking eg Tralee Dynamos or Castlebar Celtic, maybe merging them with another local club, then growing them gradually up through the different levels of (ahem) a pyramid, over many years.
* - I don't know anything at all about Cuala beyond googling, but I do know that the GAA are particularly good at developing chosen clubs using their own resources which are often much greater than those of Football. This is frequently helped too by accessing generous funding from the government. Whereas for Mayo/Kerry, or Castlebar/Tralee, the FAI has nothing like that to offer.
Don't you think there might be a reason for somewhere not being a stronghold?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Which is not to say that you cannot eventually grow the game in such an area. However, this takes time, resources, planning and process etc, as we've seen eg in NI with Dungannon, Ballinamallard or Warrenpoint, areas which never had Senior football when eg Cuala GAA was formed.
I'm suggesting a dual pyramid. Elite and regional. I'm not against a Mayo FC joining if they meet elite licencing criteria. Elite licencing should be central around progressive academies and a professional league.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
District leagues to regional leagues should be the regional pyramid. Newmarket Celtic FC or any junior/intermediate club should have a higher level to play for. I don't think Newmarket Celtic FC can sustain professionalism within an elite pyramid but could target as progress through a regional pyramid.
And as I say, "It's not a pyramid if it's disconnected."Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Let's reconvene this conversation for ten more years at this stage, lads. We should be grateful the League is progressing at the moment. Until we have a decade free of clubs on the brink of meltdown, with several clubs making continuous strides in eg the conference, there'll be little appetite for ironing out the many wrinkles in setting it up at present.
And as PineappleStu says "if its connected to a pyramid, its not dis."
Fair enough! ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
There are positives. There are gaps as well. Progressive clubs like Shamrock Rovers might want a level for a B team. The First Division say no to that. The likes of Mayo and Kildare joining the youth leagues should have a third tier level to mix with B teams at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorribsideSteve
The blueprint should be join the youth leagues and progress eventually to a Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II.
Linking up district leagues to some pathway is a completely different problem to solve, made more difficult if the calendar season being adopted by all leagues does not go through.
If there was a pyramid; Premier, then First Division, Second Division North/South, what would it look like below this?
LSL/MSL/USL seem ideal if they can be tidied up (allowing that the USL seems to have its own issues of course - and even the LSL/MSL are largely Dublin/Cork only I think, rather than province-wide).
Get rid of stuff like the county district leagues, or the separate leagues like the AUL. There's too many standalone leagues at local level.