Trapp. Please give these lads a chance.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

i watched, thought he was good, but i dont think i would go to far as to say he was the best. They all did well, nothing spectacular.

the thing is they probably could have won it had they sent out their best side....

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I would agree. He was mostly solid (made a couple of mistakes) but rarely spectacular. He was one of Bolton's best players though in a night where few of their team shined.

My only worry with Joey is that he looks much bigger and more sluggish since his long lay off for his injury. I remember at Sheffield Wednesday he looked more dynamic and seemed to have an extra yard of pace. He scored a few goals there also. I hope his injury isn't continuing to have a negative effect on his development.

Saying that if O'Brien is regularly playing the holding role for Bolton though (as he has been doing for the last few weeks) I'd stick him in the Ireland team ahead of Carsley who I think is a nothing player. Joey can at least pass the ball and is decent in the air (useful in a midfield of short arses). I'm aware he was rubbish against Cyprus in the same position but he hadn't played there for Bolton at the time in a long time (about a year and a half).

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I'd stick him in the Ireland team ahead of Carsley who I think is a nothing player. Joey can at least pass the ball and is decent in the air (useful in a midfield of short arses). I'm aware he was rubbish against Cyprus in the same position but he hadn't played there for Bolton at the time in a long time (about a year and a half).

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You don't get in that Everton team by being a 'nothing' player.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

You don't get in that Everton team by being a 'nothing' player.

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Just don't rate him man. Before the Cyprus away debacle under Stan nobody was clamouring for him to be in our team. Afterwards when he was recalled and we drew with the Czechs everyone was saying how essential he was in the holding midfield role. However in the course of the campaign he didn't really make any difference to our results. We still had some terrible results when he was playing and conceeded some atrocious goals. He offers nothing going forward either which I believe a good International defensive midfielder should provide on occasion (unfortunately this is also a problem with O'Brien at present). I really believe we need to find a better option in that position if we want to beat Bulgaria to second spot in the group.

Our only possible alternatives available now or on the horizon before the campaign kicks into gear are S Reid, J O'Brien or Garvan.

Actually critical postions that need sorting for Ireland before our campaign kicks off are:

Left Back
Right Back (hopefully Fnnan will come back)
Centre Back (McShane, Ledger or O'Dea need to step up their game within the next 6 months)
Holding Midfield

We have no hope of qualifying if O'Shea, Carsley, S Kelly and Kilbane are all starting regularly in the same team.

You would stick him in ahead of Carsley?

Talk sense man. Carsley has done nothing wrong. Albeit not his biggest fan and while we have performed dreadfully in some games since Cyprus - we haven't conceeded many goals. Trapp would pisk Carsley before O Brien to hold midfield. What about the home game against Cyprus???????????????? He was shocking!!!!!

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Our only possible alternatives available now or on the horizon before the campaign kicks into gear are S Reid, J O'Brien or Garvan.

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the old s reid for ctre mid rears its head again. just dont see him being a better option than carsley. hopefully he proves me wrong but have seen nothing in s reaid that convinces me he can do a job for us in any position

the other two are untried and yet to be proven. carsley is our best option at the moment and seems to be playing really well for everton (currently 4th in the EPL)

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Just don't rate him man. Before the Cyprus away debacle under Stan nobody was clamouring for him to be in our team. Afterwards when he was recalled and we drew with the Czechs everyone was saying how essential he was in the holding midfield role. However in the course of the campaign he didn't really make any difference to our results. We still had some terrible results when he was playing and conceeded some atrocious goals. He offers nothing going forward either which I believe a good International defensive midfielder should provide on occasion (unfortunately this is also a problem with O'Brien at present). I really believe we need to find a better option in that position if we want to beat Bulgaria to second spot in the group.

Our only possible alternatives available now or on the horizon before the campaign kicks into gear are S Reid, J O'Brien or Garvan.

Actually critical postions that need sorting for Ireland before our campaign kicks off are:

Left Back
Right Back (hopefully Fnnan will come back)
Centre Back (McShane, Ledger or O'Dea need to step up their game within the next 6 months)
Holding Midfield

We have no hope of qualifying if O'Shea, Carsley, S Kelly and Kilbane are all starting regularly in the same team.

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YI, id very much agree with this stance, I was thinking that we lack a player that has a get up and go and a driving force attitude on the pitch. Its a pity, cos thats what we really need to qualify, and when you have a player like that in a holding/defensive midfield role it can be a real catalyst. A la keane/mcgrath/townsend sorta player, in attitude I mean.

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Originally Posted by BigmanCas

Talk sense man. Carsley has done nothing wrong. Albeit not his biggest fan and while we have performed dreadfully in some games since Cyprus - we haven't conceeded many goals.

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Doesn't anyone think this might be more to do with kicking big nose A O'Brien out of the team (who was terrible against Cyprus and hadn't played regular football in months) and replacing Paddy Kenny with Shay Given than just the introduction of Carsley? Anyway we still conceeded shocking goals to Slovakia, San Marino and Wales.

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Originally Posted by BigmanCas

What about the home game against Cyprus???????????????? He was shocking!!!!!

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As mentioned previously he was only back after a season of injury. I hope he would do a far better job if he's playing regularly in this position for Bolton (this has to be a condition for his inclusion).

Anyway it needn't be O'Brien that replaces Carsley. I'm happy enough to try other alternatives. Carsley is a pretty poor player let's be honest. Only JOS and Kilbane are less deserving of a place in our starting 11.

Well it's back to my old rant. I think we need 2 men protecting the back four and freeing up/complimenting the more creative technical players at our disposal.

Didn't see O'Brien but pleased at what I have read.

This now gives a bit of depth for those anchoring players so now it's two from Carsley, SReid and O'Brien.

With Ireland or Andy Reid ahead flanked by two from Duff, McGeady and Keane

With a lone front man to do a thankless job of tying to provide an arial threat, work the channels, hold the ball up and bring others into the game.

I've said this a few times but I think this formation compliments the players we have at our disposal and provides consistency by insulating the formation from absences of Key personnel. Not to mention having Steven Hunt and arguably Liam Lawrence for a plan B.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Just don't rate him man. Before the Cyprus away debacle under Stan nobody was clamouring for him to be in our team. Afterwards when he was recalled and we drew with the Czechs everyone was saying how essential he was in the holding midfield role. However in the course of the campaign he didn't really make any difference to our results. We still had some terrible results when he was playing and conceeded some atrocious goals.

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I don't know about clamor, there was a thread during the club pre season friendly time before the Qual. campaign and the majority saw a role for him in the squad/team. Before the German game, again there were calls for him to be in the team, increasing before the Cyprus game.
He has been the best fit option for CM.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Doesn't anyone think this might be more to do with kicking big nose A O'Brien out of the team (who was terrible against Cyprus and hadn't played regular football in months) and replacing Paddy Kenny with Shay Given than just the introduction of Carsley? Anyway we still conceeded shocking goals to Slovakia, San Marino and Wales.


As mentioned previously he was only back after a season of injury. I hope he would do a far better job if he's playing regularly in this position for Bolton (this has to be a condition for his inclusion).

Anyway it needn't be O'Brien that replaces Carsley. I'm happy enough to try other alternatives. Carsley is a pretty poor player let's be honest. Only JOS and Kilbane are less deserving of a place in our starting 11.

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There was no presence in the centre of the park against Cyprus in Cyprus. Kevin Kilbane was deployed in the role. While not ideal - he had absolutely no support from Stephan Ireland. Carsley is our only recognised holding midfielder.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I think need to look seriously when they declare there's a "crisis" at left back when Kilbane hasn't put a foot wrong in that position.

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Did you actually watch him play left full in the Cyprus and Brazil games?
He was woefully out of position, kept moving into the centre of defence and gave the opposing wingers an acre of space to move into

well if he thinks "harte can come into FORM", then he must be in cuckoo land. Harte was never in form. doesnt have a clue.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Did you actually watch him play left full in the Cyprus and Brazil games?
He was woefully out of position, kept moving into the centre of defence and gave the opposing wingers an acre of space to move into

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You missed his worst performance there against the Dutch at home. God he was terrible. He made John O'Sh*te look like Roberto Carlos.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Look at any of our games over the past 2 years. The problem has never been sloppy defending (or well the main problem at least). The problem has been in midfield, mainly keeping possession and passing. I think need to look seriously when they declare there's a "crisis" at left back when Kilbane hasn't put a foot wrong in that position. I think the "crisis" is that we need a functioning midfield that can win the possession game and bring our strikers into the game.

We can worry about average full backs later though even then I think it's a non issue. Dunne, O Shea, Kelly, Kilbane and McShane are all competent premiership defenders. We're fine with 4 of those. If Finnan and O Brien return and Harte hits form again we're laughing.
I swear if some people around here had their way they'd have our entire team full of under 23 championship players. :rolleyes:

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My God I have heard it all now. I don't know how old you are or how long you have been watching football, but one thing I have managed to figure out is that you don't know very much about it. We will be laughing when Ian Harte hits form according to you. I think you are having a laugh by even mentioning his name, maybe I am wrong and i hope i am but I will be surprised if both Finnan and O'Brien come back.
You then go on to say that Dunne, O Shea, Kelly, Kilbane and McShane are all competent premiership defenders. Richard Dunne is the only one unless you have seen something in the others that I sure have not.
We have the nucleus of a good team, about 15 players as was mentioned earlier and we have some very good players who play week in week out in the championship. Many of them are very close to being as good as some in that 15.I am sure a few will be playing premiership football next year therefore using your reasoning should jump up into the top ten or so. Anyway I would love for you to go watch a few championship games and watch out for the Irish lads playing in them.Then come back in a few months and I bet your assessment and view on these players will be a whole lot more positive.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I think need to look seriously when they declare there's a "crisis" at left back when Kilbane hasn't put a foot wrong in that position. I think the "crisis" is that we need a functioning midfield that can win the possession game and bring our strikers into the game.

We can worry about average full backs later though even then I think it's a non issue. Dunne, O Shea, Kelly, Kilbane and McShane are all competent premiership defenders.

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Wow! We clearly DO have an issue at left back. We have been using players out of position for a long time in that position. You talk about not needing to look at the championship, but we really do need to look thoroughly around other divisions aside from the Premier League because we don't have anyone who is a natural left back. I'm really hoping that O'Halloran can start getting games as he seems like the solution.

If Kilbane is playing at left back again in an Ireland shirt then pay close attention to him. If he is to play for us at left back then he needs to seriously improve his positioning, otherwise he's not deserving of a place there. At the momentI would go with O'Shea, although again, it's not his best position either IMO. As for Harte coming back, after seeing him against San Marino I am hoping he never plays for us again. I have nothing against him, but from open play he adds absolutely nothing to the side.

Why do you continue to have a go at people saying we should look to the championship? Surely a championship player who has comparable ability to someone in his position in the premiership is a better bet if they are playing regularly football and the Premiership player isn't? Look what happened with Andy O'Brien in Cyprus. We should be looking for the best talent, irrespective of which club they play for. It's that attitude that has caused England to play Lampard and Gerrard in the same team for years and then wonder why they underachieve.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

You missed his worst performance there against the Dutch at home. God he was terrible. He made John O'Sh*te look like Roberto Carlos.

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You sure he played left full in that game?
Accoridng to this - http://www.soccerscene.ie/sssenior/m...ils.php?id=422 - Finnan, O'Shea, Andy O'Brien and Carr were the defenders that day, surely one of Finnan or Carr was left full?

<EDIT>

Just checked the post match thread here - http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=38516&highlight=finnan - Finnan started at left full

If I remember correctly Kilbane dropped back to LB when Carr went off at half time.... I remember that defense being taken apart again and again.... For a while it looked like we had a back three of John O'Shea, Andy O'Brien and Kevin Kilbane. I don't think my heart has ever quite recovered.

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Originally Posted by Diarmo

If I remember correctly Kilbane dropped back to LB when Carr went off at half time.... I remember that defense being taken apart again and again.... For a while it looked like we had a back three of John O'Shea, Andy O'Brien and Kevin Kilbane. I don't think my heart has ever quite recovered.

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True he switched to left back in the second half and we were subsequently torn apart due to some terrible positioning at the back and the poorest rehearsed offside trap in the history of International football.

In defence if Harte he might be getting first team football right now if Stokes didn't redirect two perfect free kicks wide of the goal in that premier league game he started.

liam lawrence has been one of the best midfielders in the championship over the last couple of months, always liked him when he was with sunderland never got a real chance for ireland though. would definatly give him a few games. same for clinton, had a decent record for us, no matter what anyone says. should be looking at owen garvan from b'burns reserves too, lovely player! not to start yet but maybe to just bring him into the squad and bring him on and in a couple of years he could be very good

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

How are you supposed to give Lawerence a few games when Duff, McGeady, Hunt, Andy Reid, Steven Reid and Ireland can all play in the same position and are all better than him?

Seriously he's 7th choice right winger, let's drop it.

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Why are you so dismissive of him? He's a player on form and should at least be tried. Most of those players you mention are better in other positions and none of them are natural right wingers. He should at least be given a chance. He could be a useful squad player for us. Anyway, I wouldn't have Andy Reid or Stephen Ireland near that position (for very different reasons). IMO we are at are best with Reid in the middle. Shunting him out onto the wing is a disservice to him and we need him to be in the middle to spread play and start play from deep by taking the ball off the defence. I think we would be a lot less threatening if Reid started on the right for us. As for Ireland, I just don't like the look of him at right midfield, even though he does play there for City a lot. He cuts inside too much and is relatively ineffective there. I'm only really judging him on his Ireland appearances but he was woeful there against Wales.

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

Why are you so dismissive of him? He's a player on form and should at least be tried. Most of those players you mention are better in other positions and none of them are natural right wingers. He should at least be given a chance. He could be a useful squad player for us. Anyway, I wouldn't have Andy Reid or Stephen Ireland near that position (for very different reasons). IMO we are at are best with Reid in the middle. Shunting him out onto the wing is a disservice to him and we need him to be in the middle to spread play and start play from deep by taking the ball off the defence. I think we would be a lot less threatening if Reid started on the right for us. As for Ireland, I just don't like the look of him at right midfield, even though he does play there for City a lot. He cuts inside too much and is relatively ineffective there. I'm only really judging him on his Ireland appearances but he was woeful there against Wales.

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I agree. I wrote this a few weeks ago in another thread but for the right wing we have potentially Miller, Duff, McGeady, the two Reids, Ireland and Lawrence. You could argue that the two Reids, Ireland and Miller look much more comfortable in CMF and should only be played on the right when we have no other options. Also one of Duff and McGeady should be played at LMF with Hunt as back-up. That leaves us with Lawrence competing with Duff or McGeady for RMF. El Trap will probably employ a different system than 4-4-2 without out and out wingers and I'm not sure where that would leave Lawrence but he's in great form at the moment and IMO he deserves at least a place in the squad. I reckon he would inject some much-needed energy into the team, if he carries his club form onto the international scene. This can only be found out if he's given some time on the pitch for us.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

How are you supposed to give Lawerence a few games when Duff, McGeady, Hunt, Andy Reid, Steven Reid and Ireland can all play in the same position and are all better than him?

Seriously he's 7th choice right winger, let's drop it.

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"let's drop it" Do you have to be so dismissive in your posts? You're not speaking with any authority and it undermines your already poorly supported position further when you use flippant language like that.

I don't agree that Reid twins and Ireland are ahead of Lawrence for a berth on the right hand side. For starters there are major question marks over the future of Ireland's international career. Like Ireland, Andy Reid is neither pacy nor strong and athletic - a good wide player needs at least on of these attributes.

Steven Reid has been fairly ineffectual as a right midfielder for us in the past and I think his talents as a footballer lend themselves almost exclusively to a central role.

Damien Duff has been fairly diabolical for Newcastle - if he finds himself short on form for Ireland, we seriously need to explore as many other options as possible. Additionally, Duff showed in the match against Brazil that he is not strong on his right foot. Although in the past for Chelsea and Ireland (the Sweden goal stands out) Duff showed himself to be fairly competent with his right, his injury clearly has affected his two-footedness.

There is in point in trying to put a constructive arguement to you as to why championship players should not be ignored. You appear compleatly insightless and totally set against it.Well we are all entitled to our opinion and we will agree to disagree on this one. I want the best for Irish football and some very good players happen to play in the Championship including Liam Lawerance.As i have said to you, watch some of these lads play and if you still thing they are not international standard so be it.Also, what happens when half our team are playing in the Championship next season?

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Originally Posted by FarBeag

Well we are all entitled to our opinion....

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Spot on.

I am of the opinion that Ciaran is on a perverse expedition of making himself appear clueless (not to mention a tit) so that one day he can dramatically unveil an amazing, sharp, incisive persona so that in dumbfounded awe we'll genuflect in his honour. :)

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

The idea deserves dismissal because it's absurd :rolleyes:

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Do you care to enlighten us at to why the idea is absurd, other than that Lawrence and other talented players who shouldn't even be considered play in the championship?

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

We've spent the last few years pushing talented players around and giving the benefit to young championship players who are performing well at their level. Tell me, when was the last time a championship player played for Ireland and played well? Keogh was found to be out of his depth, Potter has been found wanting, Douglas...ugh don't get me started on that guy.

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You are only going on the Staunton regime. With the - hopefully - excellent scouting network that Trapattoni has put in place we might be able to unearth a few gems from the championship. Staunton seemed to barely have a scouting network. We cannot judge anything on his era because his tenure has been shown up to have been a total disaster, in almost every sense. I'm not going to bother to explain why we can't judge championship and other league players selected by Staunton as it should be self-evident.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Though like I mentioned already our biggest problem right now is getting a functional midfield. Over the last few years we've had no continuity and I think we've had an entirely different midfield every single game. We started it with Elliot, O Shea, S.Reid and Duff. Ended it with McGeady, Carsley, Andy Reid and Miller. With Hunt, Ireland, Keogh, Kilbane and god knows who else in squads in between.

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I agree with this, although in fairness to Staunton, this wasn't helped by injuries.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

We need to stop messing around and throwing people into squads for the craic. Lawerance is a championship player for a reason, that reason being that he's probably not good enough for the top level. We have several right sided midfielders who are good enough for that level and unless there's a huge amount of injuries there's no reason to use Liam.

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As I said in an earlier post, all of the players you have mentioned aren't natural right wingers, it isn't their best position, and they will be needed elsewhere in the team. IMO the only two who you mentioned who I feel should be competing with Lawrence for the berth on the right of midfield are Duff and McGeady, but one of them will also probably play on the left.

We don't have a massive player pool like England. We may sometimes have to dig a little deeper for players. Just because one player plays for a Premiership team it doesn't automatically make him better than a Championship player. Sometimes there can even be extenuating circumstances as to why a player plays in a lower division.

Anyway, Andy Reid is one of our best performing midfielders at the moment IMO and will probably be essential to our gameplan in the upcoming qualifiers. He began playing for us in the Championship, and even had he not moved to Tottenham later on he would have continued playing for us. He was still a crucial player for us in this campaign - when he was fit - again, even though he was playing for a Championship side for part of the campaign. There are numerous other examples of Championship players being good enough to play for us. I for one would have been interested to see what Hunt could have provided before he started playing in the Premiership.

Perhaps Lawrence isn't good enough or won't even get a look in. I just don't think you can write him off so easily merely because he plays for a lower division side.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I like Lawerence, he's a good player and I think he could be a great player for us. But right now he's not the best option. Why? Because

A) He has no international experience
B) He has no top level experience
C) There are several players I've mentioned who have both of these things ahead of him.

I'm not saying Liam is trash, I'm saying he hasn't proven himself at the required level and shouldn't be considered until he has.

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He has played in the top level and was one of Sunderland's best performing players, though they did finish with a dismal points total. In regards to international experience, how is a player supposed to get it without being called up?

If Stoke go up I bet you'll all be clamouring for him because he's in a 'big division' then. He's worthy of a squad place IMO at this moment in time and there is no harm in inviting him to the training camps in May.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

I am of the opinion that Ciaran is on a perverse expedition of making himself appear clueless (not to mention a tit) so that one day he can dramatically unveil an amazing, sharp, incisive persona so that in dumbfounded awe we'll genuflect in his honour. :)

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I wish I could put my thoughts into words as well as you. :D

Like Hunt, Lawrence a viable option for a plan B, i think anyway... Don't think they'd suit anything other than a wide position in a standard midfield 4, and by what I've read about Trapp I don't think we'll see much of that for Ireland.

Ireland Assistant Manager Marco Tardelli (seriously, how cool does that sound??) was at the Blackburn - West Ham game today running the rule over Steven Reid