Staunton & FAI insult to eL players

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09/10/2006, 10:37 AM
CuanaD

Quote:

Originally Posted by BohDiddley

Just found this on BFC site.

Good team that - & you can see from the article how much strength-in-depth there would be in the team too:ball:

Personally I'm all for the conspiracy theory - the FAI will not let the senior manager pick multiple eL players for the squad, UNTIL the eL comes fully under the FAI control - they have always resented the fact that the eL was a (slightly) seperate entity & therefore looked down on the league.
That & the fact that the suits ALL seem to support foreign teams:mad: & love their junkets
09/10/2006, 11:27 AM
Soper

I will say this, I watch Cardiff City at every home match, and there is no doubting that Cork, Derry, Shels, Drogs (with Sligo Rovers and Bohs next season) would hold their own in that league.People go on about EL players just being failed english lower league players, but there are an array of players in the Championship now who have failed at championship or league one standard, gone to league two or the conference, and ended up back in the championship playing regularly.Derry would beat Wolves. Luton, Coventry out of the teams I have seen come to Ninian Park this season.This is fact.
09/10/2006, 12:37 PM
lofty9

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/6032905.stm

Off in a tangent but related to the eircom league in regards to irish people/fans. I despair.:( . It would be great if we could concentrate on getting 10% extra to Eircom League games. I actually cringed with embarrassment reading this.
09/10/2006, 12:41 PM
Soper

In addition to that, Irish people are starting to support Cardiff now as well.
09/10/2006, 1:09 PM
bluemovie

Based on their European performances, I have no doubt that Derry City wouldn't have lost to Cyprus. They play as a team.

Saturday probably ranks as the most humiliating day in the history of Irish sport. Don't let anyone tell you Cyprus aren't bad. They're rubbish. I go to all of Ireland's home games and sing/shout as loudly as anyone, but I've felt a little detached from the team since Staunton took charge. Before kick off, I told my mates it would be a good game between two evenly-balanced, equally-bad teams. It was for the first half, but they destroyed us in the second.

The players should be ashamed of themselves, but I still think we have enough quality to be able to qualify for major tournaments (not this one now). A decent manager would get a whole lot more from the Duffs and Keanes. Player-for-player, we are better than the likes of Switzerland.

The FAI made the wrong choice. Stan's an honourable man so hopefully, he'll step down at the end of the week (I predict a battling 2 goal defeat to the Czechs). There are plenty of decent managers out there who would jump at the chance of managing Ireland.
09/10/2006, 2:14 PM
stann

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Now I've been in Japan for 5 years, and consequently didnt see the game last night, but I've kept up pretty well through internet and this forum, and I know the standard has been raised in that time. But I dont think it has reached the standard that eircom league players can competently replace premiership / championship players.

Not over the course of a few games, or a season, Osarusan, but in that one match, they would not have had to play to even anywhere near their potential to have been better than 7 or 8 of those in a green shirt on Saturday. Ireland weren't just beaten well, they allowed Cyprus to out-class them, in fact allowed the Cypriots to take the complete mick out of them for some of the goals. Try to get hold of a recording of the game because you will not believe your eyes.
You're right that the eL has not reached that standard, but it is equally right that the Irish team's performance dipped to way below that standard on the night. Truly shocking.
09/10/2006, 2:27 PM
bigmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemovie

The players should be ashamed of themselves, but I still think we have enough quality to be able to qualify for major tournaments (not this one now). A decent manager would get a whole lot more from the Duffs and Keanes. Player-for-player, we are better than the likes of Switzerland.

I'd have to disagree with you there bluemovie - I think that people who rubbished Switzerland were those who were swayed by the hype around the premiership and the fact that in comparison, we know very little about the other European leagues - look at the furore that surrounded Owen Hargreaves in England - all because the press assumed that the Bundesliga was nowhere near the standard of the Premiership.
Switzerland could call on players from Arsenal and AC Milan as well as a host of players playing in the Bundesliga - why should we assume that players who struggle to get their game in the Premiership should be better than them?

What we have to remember is that for every Machester United or Chelsea in the Premiership, there's a Watford, or a Sheffield United, and unfortunately, aside from a few notable exceptions - it is the lower teams that Irish players play for.
09/10/2006, 2:36 PM
centre mid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

the problem is clear here, and its the gob****e who hired stan.

Probably the most important point,

Stan was never the right man, why was Bobby Robson appointed, the FAI and Delaney in particular needs to take a long hard look at what its Mission Statement is and what it wants to achieve

Is getting a shiney new stadium to host the Uefa cup final the most important thing?
09/10/2006, 2:38 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by stann

Not over the course of a few games, or a season, Osarusan, but in that one match, they would not have had to play to even anywhere near their potential to have been better than 7 or 8 of those in a green shirt on Saturday. .
You're right that the eL has not reached that standard, but it is equally right that the Irish team's performance dipped to way below that standard on the night. Truly shocking.

Good post stann, whats an intelligent fellow like you doing on this site?:D

As I said, the fact I havent seen the game, or any recent game for that matter, and if they were that bad, well..............
09/10/2006, 4:31 PM
pete

When you see the likes of Tabb & St Ledger in the irish squad, players with minimal Championship experience in england you have to think that irish managers are biased against the eL.

St Ledger was in League Two last year & tabb never excelled in the irish U21s - he looked like fat Andy Reid to me & certainly Ward & o'Donovan performed much better.
09/10/2006, 5:47 PM
EalingGreen

View from the North

I didn't see the Cyprus game (in Copenhagen) and don't know about standards in the Eircom. It may be that a team of EL players might have done much better against Cyprus.
However, if the "solution" to Cyprus is to pick EL players in significant numbers, then sooner rather than later, they will come up against international teams with players who are fitter, more skillful, more experienced, better coached AND equally highly motivated.
Then the EL players will get found out.
People are citing (the excellent) Kevin Doyle and the success of Derry City, Shelbourne etc as proof of EL strength, but outside of the top/richest 8 or 10 clubs in England, there are 80 professional clubs who are all desperate for the next Kevin Doyle. At least some of these will have been looking closely at the Eircom and will be able to make money offers that both clubs and players won't be able to refuse. Why haven't they been snapping up players? I don't see how it can just be down to their (English) parochialism/ignorance/prejudice etc, otherwise why haven't overseas clubs, such as PSG, also been moving in? I feel this can only be that Doyle and one or two others are the exception that prove the rule, as I've observed in Irish League football over the years.

As for the future development of young players for the international team through a more professional Eircom set-up, of course it would help ROI football in all aspects if the Eircom and its clubs were to improve. However, the key to producing international players lies not with who they sign for at 16 or 17; rather, the crucial aspect is how they're taught the game long before that. (According to Arsene Wenger, if kids haven't mastered the very basics before they are 11 or 12, it's almost certainly already too late for them to become absolutely top class. This is why he is now looking beyond even France or the rest of Europe, to find players for Arsenal from Africa and the former French colonies, where he is being offered the cream of "graduates" from well-organised Academies, which school huge numbers of talented and desperate young kids)

Of course, if talented, well-coached young teenagers are being produced in the ROI, then it is in their interests (and the national team's), if they then proceed to the environment which will best take them to the next level. It may be that individual EL clubs might be able to do that on a consistent basis, but with a population of 3.5 million, it's hard to see more than one or two clubs reaching that level. After all, Scotland with over 5 million, over 20 full-time clubs and a much greater history, can only produce 4 or 5 clubs of any note in this respect.
Therefore, unless or until continental clubs start to visit the ROI for young talent (now that they're scouring pretty much the rest of the world), then England, with a population of 50 million supporting 100 professional clubs, is the obvious destination for 90% of good young prospective internationals.

As for what is to be done with the ROI team in the short-term, I have to say that those posters who have been excoriating the present players are probably misplaced in their criticisms. The likes of O'Shea, Keane, McGeady and Duff haven't suddenly lost their ability, unless you think judges such as Ferguson, Jol, Strachan and Roeder are fools for picking them each week for their clubs.
And as for the "supporting cast", even if these are weaker than in previous years (and not helped by injuries), then they still surely should be good enough to beat the likes of Cyprus.
I say that on the basis of watching NI in recent matches. Against Denmark, for example, our opponents played for Villa, Liverpool and Fulham from the English Prem; Stuttgart, Schalke and W.Bremen from the Bundesliga; Seville from the Primera Liga; Auxerre from Ligue 1 and Fiorentina from Serie A. The remaining two play for 1 FC Copenhagen, Denmark's top club, who have qualified for the Group Stages of the Champions League, eliminating Ajax along the way.
By contrast, the NI team was as follows:
Taylor - 36 y.o. keeper at Birmingham;
Duff - Burnley Centre Back, but played at right back;
Craigan - Motherwell (says it all, really);
Hughes - Villa Right Back, played at Centre Back;
Evans - 18 year old Centre Back, never played a compeitive game for MU, currently on loan to a Belgian 2nd Division club. Oh, and played out of position at Left Back. (Could just be the next Paul McGrath, mind. Only better. And ours!)
Gillespie - veteran winger playing occasionally for Sheff U;
Davis - fair enough, already absolute Star player. Only God knows how far he'll go under Martin O'Neill;
Clingan - 22 year old at Forest (English "third" division), cuffed 4-0 at home by S****horpe on Saturday in his absence(!);
Baird - Centre Back from Southampton, played in midfield;
Healy - God the Father, Son and Holy Goalscorer, but content to "slum it" amongst His flock in the English "2nd Division";
Lafferty - was 19 last month, has started fewer games than that for Burnley, though what a prospect. As Billy Hamilton said, he'd "chase paper on a windy day", such is his effort!

Basically the Danes (ranked No.15 in the world), tried to batter us for 90 minutes, plus the six longest minutes of injury time ever known, but we held out for a point.

Therefore, it seems to me that the only difference to account for this performance over that of an ROI team with superior players, is that Sanchez basically knows what he's doing, whereas Staunton is a lemon.
And it looks for all the world like the ROI players lost confidence in Stan by the second or third match, and now they've lost confidence in themselves.
Of course, it's not for me to say what you should do about him. Personally, I'd be all for allowing him more time, if only to prove me wrong. Or, at least until NI have overtaken you in the rankings...:D

P.S. I saw a lot of Jay Tabb when he was at Brentford. He's a great little player already, and as good as any of a number of Brentford players who've recently gone on to play at a much higher level (inc.Premiership and international). His major drawback is that he's only about 5' 5". However, he's nippy enough usually to avoid trouble and his attitude, both as a player and a person is absolutely top class - Bees fans love him. Micky Adams will have seen him when he managed Brentford and Tabb was in his early teens, so it's no coincidence he was so keen to sign him for Coventry. I only wish he was one of ours!
09/10/2006, 7:58 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I didn't see the Cyprus game (in Copenhagen) and don't know about standards in the Eircom.

You could've shortened your post a fair bit and left it at that.
09/10/2006, 8:42 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

You could've shortened your post a fair bit and left it at that.

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?
09/10/2006, 9:38 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?

In your analysis of Staunton being the problem, you fail to consider the motivation of the players. The Irish team has more Premiership players & whilst this should result in a more able team than N.I., all it has resulted in is a bunch of highly paid wasters who have very little heart & no fight for the jersey.

Face it, when you're on 40 or 50k a week, where are you going to put your effort in, with your paymaster or elsewhere?

IMHO, EL players would give a lot more in the way of effort than the Premiership primadonnas, many having had to combine a job with their football in the past.

And instead of bulking the squad out with plastic paddies like St. Ledger, there are a few able EL players that would do a job.

In relation to Tabb, I`ve seen him for the U21s a few timcs & he acquited himelf fine, but no better than Deery & Ward in the same team, who, as you`ve probably guessed, are EL players.

In relation to the Cyprus game, its particularly relevant as Cork knocked their Champions League representative out this year.
09/10/2006, 9:45 PM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

People are citing (the excellent) Kevin Doyle and the success of Derry City, Shelbourne etc as proof of EL strength, but outside of the top/richest 8 or 10 clubs in England, there are 80 professional clubs who are all desperate for the next Kevin Doyle. At least some of these will have been looking closely at the Eircom and will be able to make money offers that both clubs and players won't be able to refuse. Why haven't they been snapping up players?

Reading fluked big time when they signed Doyle. Its possible they would not have been promoted without him. I would agree with your point if he just did ok but he was voted best player in last years Championship. Coppell has since admitted he was unsure of signing Doyle even at the small fee the paid - if this doesn't show the anti-eL bias i don't what does. By your logic only when eL players deemed good enough by UK club managers are they deemed worthy of consideration. I think you need to inform yourself what by watch some eL teams in europe nest season.
09/10/2006, 9:46 PM
gustavo

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Face it, when you're on 40 or 50k a week, where are you going to put your effort in, with your paymaster or elsewhere?
.

Didnt do the Italians any harm
09/10/2006, 9:59 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustavo

Didnt do the Italians any harm

Was it a coincidence that they all live and play in the country they were representing?
09/10/2006, 10:59 PM
gustavo

Yeah i suppose it cant have done them any harm! but your main point was about the money which im sure the Azurri arent short of.
10/10/2006, 7:40 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Yeah, good one. Very funny.

But if you hadn't finished reading at that point, you might have realised that none of my comments about ROI and Staunton were based on the Cyprus match.
I did, however, point out that Sanchez, with inferior players, is managing to get much more from his team than Stan.
And as for the development of future ROI internationals, these were based on what other countries are doing.
As for my comments on EL clubs and their players (esp. re suitability for international duty), I pointed out that qualified judges (managers, coaches, scouts) in other professional Leagues are hardly falling over themselves to sign EL players. I might also have mentioned that Brian Kerr knows a hell of a sight about the Eircom and quite a bit about international football, and he picked v.few EL players.
My P.S. about Jay Tabb was based on having seen him play literally dozens of times over the last three seasons.

So if you've managed to concentrate beyond the first line of this post, would you like to state where you think my opinions in my post were wrong or uninformed? That is, if it's not too late and you have to get up for school tomorrow?

The main point here is that League of Ireland football shouldn't be ignored when it comes to the national team. Whatever about LOI players being good or not enough for a starting position in the national side, they're certainly deserving of places in the squad.

I think you are misguided when you say that other professional leagues aren't falling over themselves to sign LOI players. League of Ireland matches are heavily scouted by British clubs and two Scandinavian clubs have placed quite substantial bids on LOI players in the recent past. The league has also schooled a number of "high"-profile managers in the past, not least it was the managerial birthplace of one Lawrie Sanchez.

Ireland's population (The Republic) is over 4 million and pretty much the same as Norway's. Norway has had teams in the Champions League in the past, currently has teams at the same level as FCK (Copenhagen), and has teams that needed 12 penalties to get by a LOI side into the first-round proper of the UEFA Cup. And honestly, we are already at the same level as the Scottish Premier Division but as you say you know nothing. Just of note - as pointed out by somebody else in this thread - our best U21 players are playing in the LOI. Surely this shows that regular first-team football is better for player development that the fields of an academy farm in Britain? But should I direct this question at you - as you have said you know nothing?

Ireland has the players to put out a number of teams capable of beating the Cypiot national side. End of story and Stan OUT!

Northern Ireland has shown us that ten players behind the ball can get a 0-0 draw in Copenhagen, and that playing on the counter at home can get a win against Spain. (Northern Ireland should be highly commended for beating the Spanish - Sweden literally copied the North's tactics in that match when they beat Spain Saturday night with both their goals coming, you guessed it, on the counter). Northern Ireland has also shown us that a team with limited technical ability is unable to steer the pace of a match and put all expectation and hype on "ice", so to speak. Ireland is being shown a lesson by the North - organisation and tactics go a long way in international football but as expectations rise, lack of technical ability will be caught out. An LOI manager knows this, that's why Sanchez says Wednesday night is a much tougher game than the one in Copehagen because the North is expected to go out and win.
10/10/2006, 12:41 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

The main point here is that League of Ireland football shouldn't be ignored when it comes to the national team. Whatever about LOI players being good or not enough for a starting position in the national side, they're certainly deserving of places in the squad.

I think you are misguided when you say that other professional leagues aren't falling over themselves to sign LOI players. League of Ireland matches are heavily scouted by British clubs and two Scandinavian clubs have placed quite substantial bids on LOI players in the recent past. The league has also schooled a number of "high"-profile managers in the past, not least it was the managerial birthplace of one Lawrie Sanchez.

Ireland's population (The Republic) is over 4 million and pretty much the same as Norway's. Norway has had teams in the Champions League in the past, currently has teams at the same level as FCK (Copenhagen), and has teams that needed 12 penalties to get by a LOI side into the first-round proper of the UEFA Cup. And honestly, we are already at the same level as the Scottish Premier Division but as you say you know nothing. Just of note - as pointed out by somebody else in this thread - our best U21 players are playing in the LOI. Surely this shows that regular first-team football is better for player development that the fields of an academy farm in Britain? But should I direct this question at you - as you have said you know nothing?

Ireland has the players to put out a number of teams capable of beating the Cypiot national side. End of story and Stan OUT!

If you bring players into a squad, it must be on the basis that they can step up to the mark and compete consistently, if need be. There may well be one or two individuals in the EL who could do so, but I find it very hard to believe that it is many more than that. This opinion derives from the fact that despite being "heavily scouted" by GB and Continental clubs (as you say) very few are actually being bought - "Show me the Money" is what counts.
A succession of ROI managers have declined to pick EL players over the years, inc. Brian Kerr. Are you saying he didn't know their worth, or was prejudiced against them?
In recent years, NI has resorted to trying some of our top IL players - e.g. Gary Hamilton, Glenn Ferguson and Peter Thompson. These are hardly significantly poorer than their EL counterparts, yet they have been consistently found wanting.
I note that Pat McCourt is in Derry's team, with Patrick Jennings Jr. challenging for the keeper's spot. McCourt (widely recognised as one of the most talented players in the EL), had his chance in England, without hacking it. At Rochdale. And for a young keeper, no name opens doors quicker than PJ Jnr's. He's had contracts and trials galore at all levels in England and wasn't even good enough for non-League.
As for the impressive exploits of Shelbourne and Derry City, fair enough. However, consider this: in recent years, Millwall got to an FA Cup Final and Wycombe to the Semi-Final, ahead of many "big" clubs. Where are they now? How many top players emerged from either team? Tim Cahill for one, plus a couple more at a lower level.
And who are these "high profile" managers the EL has schooled? Sanchez is v.highly qualified, but this stems from his taking a University Degree whilst playing for Reading, followed by post-graduate Management qualifications and Coaching Badges whilst at Wimbledon etc. Sure, his first actual job was at Sligo, but how long was he there? Martin O'Neill's first managerial post was at Grantham Town, followed by Shepshed Charterhouse FC. Are you saying they, or Non-League Football, "produced" him?

As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable. It may be that the top couple of EL clubs might be on a par with the bottom couple of SPL clubs, but they don't even come close to e.g. Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen, never mind Celtic - recent UEFA Finalists, or Rangers - CL Group competitors.
Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

As for your best U-21 players being in the EL, I'm sure that is true. But is it because the EL has improved sufficiently to keep these youngsters from being lured to England, or is it because English clubs are now signing young players from every country in the world, so that even the best of young Irish players don't get a look in? Scott Carson is currently the England U-21 keeper. Last season he was hardly Liverpool's third choice, behind Reyna, Dudek and Kirkland.
Of course, you may well be right that regular EL football may be a better schooling than English Academies. But having received this schooling, how many are pushing on beyond the EL, either in England or further afield?

Anyhow, I'll agree with you on one point, the ROI should be able to put out three teams to beat Cyprus. But if Stan couldn't manage it with his first choice, how on earth could he do it with his third choice?
10/10/2006, 1:12 PM
Soper

*Bangs head against keyboard repeatedly*
10/10/2006, 1:18 PM
ciaraa

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

If you bring players into a squad, it must be on the basis that they can step up to the mark and compete consistently, if need be. There may well be one or two individuals in the EL who could do so, but I find it very hard to believe that it is many more than that. This opinion derives from the fact that despite being "heavily scouted" by GB and Continental clubs (as you say) very few are actually being bought - "Show me the Money" is what counts.
A succession of ROI managers have declined to pick EL players over the years, inc. Brian Kerr. Are you saying he didn't know their worth, or was prejudiced against them?
In recent years, NI has resorted to trying some of our top IL players - e.g. Gary Hamilton, Glenn Ferguson and Peter Thompson. These are hardly significantly poorer than their EL counterparts, yet they have been consistently found wanting.
I note that Pat McCourt is in Derry's team, with Patrick Jennings Jr. challenging for the keeper's spot. McCourt (widely recognised as one of the most talented players in the EL), had his chance in England, without hacking it. At Rochdale. And for a young keeper, no name opens doors quicker than PJ Jnr's. He's had contracts and trials galore at all levels in England and wasn't even good enough for non-League.
As for the impressive exploits of Shelbourne and Derry City, fair enough. However, consider this: in recent years, Millwall got to an FA Cup Final and Wycombe to the Semi-Final, ahead of many "big" clubs. Where are they now? How many top players emerged from either team? Tim Cahill for one, plus a couple more at a lower level.
And who are these "high profile" managers the EL has schooled? Sanchez is v.highly qualified, but this stems from his taking a University Degree whilst playing for Reading, followed by post-graduate Management qualifications and Coaching Badges whilst at Wimbledon etc. Sure, his first actual job was at Sligo, but how long was he there? Martin O'Neill's first managerial post was at Grantham Town, followed by Shepshed Charterhouse FC. Are you saying they, or Non-League Football, "produced" him?

As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable. It may be that the top couple of EL clubs might be on a par with the bottom couple of SPL clubs, but they don't even come close to e.g. Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen, never mind Celtic - recent UEFA Finalists, or Rangers - CL Group competitors.
Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

As for your best U-21 players being in the EL, I'm sure that is true. But is it because the EL has improved sufficiently to keep these youngsters from being lured to England, or is it because English clubs are now signing young players from every country in the world, so that even the best of young Irish players don't get a look in? Scott Carson is currently the England U-21 keeper. Last season he was hardly Liverpool's third choice, behind Reyna, Dudek and Kirkland.
Of course, you may well be right that regular EL football may be a better schooling than English Academies. But having received this schooling, how many are pushing on beyond the EL, either in England or further afield?

Anyhow, I'll agree with you on one point, the ROI should be able to put out three teams to beat Cyprus. But if Stan couldn't manage it with his first choice, how on earth could he do it with his third choice?

"As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable."

Well you got one thing right - the EL is much better then that joke of a league (minus moneybags celtic and rangers). I'd say Monaghan United would probably take Hearts...
10/10/2006, 2:04 PM
Mr A

The SPL is fully professional, has vastly superior budgets, stadia and profile, even if you take out the big three. Some of our clubs might well give SPL clubs a game of it, but we've a long way to go to catch up with them in many, many ways.
10/10/2006, 2:10 PM
bigmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

So just because a league has silly money to sign has-been internationals it's automatically better? Is the J-League in Japan that good? Or all those middle eastern leagues that pay megabucks? Henrik Larsson is the Kevin Doyle of Scottish Football, but how many players have failed in England only to be a success in Scotland, or been a success in Scotland yet failed when they transferred out? Chris Sutton, Liam Miller, Jean-Alain Boumsong.

Not sure what you mean by trophies, we have 3 in the EL, same as most leagues? What external trophies have scottish clubs won recently?

The most recent comparison between Irish and Scottish football resulted in an embarrassment for the Scottish team, albeit a first division team, but one with larger revenues, stadium, salaries etc.. Nobody can be sure of how Irish teams would do, but it is accepted by people who follow EL week in week out that the top teams in the EL would be more than on a par with the bottom clubs in the SPL and I think that they'd definitely be mid table rather than relegation fodder.

As for European results, Scotland's ranking of the 12th best league in Europe would majorly drop without the annual input of Rangers and Celtic. Over the 5 year period prior to this one, they have earned over 100 co-efficient points between them. With 4 teams in Europe, this means that those 2 teams provided almost 85% of the ranking points annually! Take the average of the other teams in Europe and the SPL would be closer to 30th position. A corollary of the Derry victory could well be that the SPL will lose a European spot in a few years.
10/10/2006, 2:47 PM
ciaraa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

The SPL is fully professional, has vastly superior budgets, stadia and profile, even if you take out the big three. Some of our clubs might well give SPL clubs a game of it, but we've a long way to go to catch up with them in many, many ways.

I know what yer trying to say G H but having watched both (scottish albeit only on tv) i cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can say that (minus celtic/rangers) scottish football is of a better quality then irish. it SHOULD BE for all the cash and nice stadia but the fact of the matter is ... it aint!!
Apart from Kilkenny and possibly Monaghan, all EL teams would be more then a match for any scottish team - and all our Premier teams (...maybe not bray actually) would dismantle any scottish side. In fairness even the northern league (Irish league??) teams would give scottish sides a game. Im not talking up our league (as it has a lot of limitations) but pointing out how ridiculously overrated the scottish league is!
10/10/2006, 2:52 PM
bigmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciaraa

Apart from Kilkenny and possibly Monaghan, all EL teams would be more then a match for any scottish team - and all our Premier teams (...maybe not bray actually) would dismantle any scottish side.

Ah hold on a minute there, it's overrated, but let's not get carried away here. The argument is generally over how much better the SPL is compared to the EL, and the arguments range from miles better, to not better at all. I don't think any EL sides would be expecting to dismantle a scottish side to be fair. Overall, it is a better league, just not by the light years that most Sellthick customers would have you believe.
10/10/2006, 3:18 PM
EalingGreen

Fair enough, you've persuaded me, the EL is on a par with the SPL (the Old Firm's money aside), Monaghan Utd would finish in 2nd place above Hearts, Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England, the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers and Kevin Doyle is going to finish his career with a swansong for Barcelona in the Champions League Final.

Now can somebody please address the points I made regarding the original topic of this thread, namely, if the present ROI squad is so over-rated, over-paid and over there (in England), so that a team drawn from the EL would do better, why aren't there scouts from all over the world flocking to sign these EL players?
After all, they'd cost a fraction of the price of the dopes they're replacing.
Unless, of course, it's anti-EL prejudice (of the type ascribed by one poster to Steve Coppell, one of the few coaches who has actually put his money where his mouth is).
And while we're at it, could someone please explain to me why Brian Kerr didn't pick more EL players.

In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.
Bird Flu? Global Warming? Islamic Militancy? :confused:
10/10/2006, 3:25 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Fair enough, you've persuaded me, the EL is on a par with the SPL (the Old Firm's money aside), Monaghan Utd would finish in 2nd place above Hearts, Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England, the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers and Kevin Doyle is going to finish his career with a swansong for Barcelona in the Champions League Final.

Now can somebody please address the points I made regarding the original topic of this thread, namely, if the present ROI squad is so over-rated, over-paid and over there (in England), so that a team drawn from the EL would do better, why aren't there scouts from all over the world flocking to sign these EL players?
After all, they'd cost a fraction of the price of the dopes they're replacing.
Unless, of course, it's anti-EL prejudice (of the type ascribed by one poster to Steve Coppell, one of the few coaches who has actually put his money where his mouth is).
And while we're at it, could someone please explain to me why Brian Kerr didn't pick more EL players.

In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.
Bird Flu? Global Warming? Islamic Militancy? :confused:

As you said in your first post,you didn't see the Cyprus game and are presumably not a regular Ireland watcher (assuming you are watching Norn Iron at the same time), nor have you any experience of the EL in recent times.

Why don't you go away, inform yourself, we'll take your points away and we can all discuss more then.

Or possibly, since you've already made your mind up on the limited amount of info available to you, why don't we just agree to disagree.
10/10/2006, 4:39 PM
bigmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England

yep

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers

It is, but it's also the same J-A B who played for Newcastle and made Andy O'Brien look good

Quote:

In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.

Shels and Cork were within a game or two of qualifying for the Champions League group stages - means absolutely nothing because that "game or two" was at a level above where they were capable of playing.
The Irish team does not have an abundance of quality - since they beat Holland in 2001, they have beaten only Iran, Saudi Arabia, Georgia, Albania, Cyprus and the Faroe Islands competitively. They were a game or two away from a playoff against Turkey, not a game that they would have had any confident expectation of winning.
This team did not "suddenly become unutterably crap", they've been heading that way for a long time!
People here are not advocating that the team be replaced wholeheartedly with El players, but they are certainly suggesting that EL players could be brought in to play in positions they are playing in weekly, rather than average English based players playing out of position. The point is that a centre-half who has been playing all season would be a better choice than a player who hasn't played a game yet. A holding midfield player from Cork is better in that role than a left winger from Wigan. A top EL keeper would be better than a keeper playing at relegation fodder 3rd tier English football.
You mention players in the EL who had a chance and didn't make it at the top level in England. Why is the squad now heading towards picking players who had a chance and didn't make it but opted to drop several divisions in England? What's the difference? Are you going to argue that the standard of Brighton Hove Albion is higher than the standard of Derry, Cork, Shels, Drogs?
11/10/2006, 10:16 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

As you said in your first post,you didn't see the Cyprus game and are presumably not a regular Ireland watcher (assuming you are watching Norn Iron at the same time), nor have you any experience of the EL in recent times.

Why don't you go away, inform yourself, we'll take your points away and we can all discuss more then.

Or possibly, since you've already made your mind up on the limited amount of info available to you, why don't we just agree to disagree.

ORA, I can see how fans of EL clubs, disgusted at the display in Nicosia (I've since seen "highlights", btw) and bearing in mind a raise in EL standards, might suggest that the players be replaced by EL players. That's football for you.

But as an outside observer, I wondered why, if EL players are good enough to play at international level, foreign scouts haven't been snapping them up to play in bigger, more professional Leagues. After all, the exploits of Derry and Shelbourne, plus the success of Kevin Doyle, should have alerted them to any bargains to be had.
Further, I wondered why Brian Kerr, uniquely placed to assess EL players' suitability for international football, rarely picked EL players.
You can slag me off all you like (doesn't bother me in the slightest), but no-one has as yet addressed these simple questions.

My own view is that if there is a problem with the present squad seriously underperforming, when they ought to be good enough to beat Cyprus with relative ease, then the first solution should not be to rush to replace the players with substitutes of debateable suitability, rather it should be to look at what has changed during the last 12 months, when roughly the same bunch of players were performing rather better.
It seems to me that the problem lies with Staunton, so that a wholesale clearout of the players as well as the manager would risk "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
After all, it works the other way that a new manager can quickly improve a group of underperforming players, as Walter Smith has shown with Scotland, or Martin O'Neill at Villa.

For further evidence to support my theory, you need only look to the NI team, which has players drawn from a similar background to that of Staunton's (though not quite so good, imo), who have proven that with the right leadership, it is quite possible for an Irish team of players from the various English divisions, to compete respectably at international level (unless it's against Iceland:( ).
11/10/2006, 11:49 AM
Soper

You seem to think that every player in every league in the world that isn't one of the big European leagues leaves once they are good enough.There are plenty of players in Norwegian teams, Swedish teams that are good enough for the Premiership/Championship etc, but don't sign for any number of reasons.And I don't just mean from the likes of Rosenberg, Aik.I mean clubs like IK Start, who were blessed to get past Drogheda.
11/10/2006, 11:55 AM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigmac

A top EL keeper would be better than a keeper playing at relegation fodder 3rd tier English football.
You mention players in the EL who had a chance and didn't make it at the top level in England. Why is the squad now heading towards picking players who had a chance and didn't make it but opted to drop several divisions in England? What's the difference? Are you going to argue that the standard of Brighton Hove Albion is higher than the standard of Derry, Cork, Shels, Drogs?

Although I've seen quite a bit of clubs at Brighton's level, I'm not familiar with EL clubs, so I'll reserve comment as to how they compare.

However, your citing of Wayne Henderson to support your case is an interesting one.
Just as Given & Kenny play at a v.high level, NI have a similarly well-qualified top two in Taylor and Carroll. However, Sanchez has decided upon Michael Ingham of Wrexham, a division below Henderson, as his clear third choice.
This is in preference* to top young IL keepers such as Glentoran's Elliott Morris and Linfield's Alan Mannus. Sanchez is aware of what they can both do, since Morris has both "B" and U-21 Caps, and Mannus actually played for the senior team during a Caribbean Tour soon after Sanchez took over.
Personally, I suspect Sanchez may be influenced by the fact that after starting his career at Cliftonville, Ingham then had a spell at Sunderland (inc. when they were in the Premiership). When that didn't work out, he elected to drop down the English Divisions rather than move back to an IL club.
This is in contrast to Morris, who moved back to the IL, after he failed to make the grade with WBA.
Despite being a Glens fan, I certainly wouldn't argue with Sanchez choice, since Ingham has done very well whenever he's been called upon and everyone speaks very highly of his dedication to his profession.

* - Ingham is also preferred over Doncaster's young keeper Blayney, Alan Fettis of Bury (25 caps) and Aidan Davison of Colchester in the Championship (the latter two because of age)

P.S. Just remembered, Ingham is also preferred over Pat Jennings Jr. of, ahem, Derry City...;)
11/10/2006, 12:01 PM
Soper

Wow, he is preffered over Derry's reserve keeper?Yipideedoodaa
11/10/2006, 12:05 PM
bohs til i die

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

So we've had the token gestures of calling eL players up to the squad when nothing at stake but with 9 players out injured Staunton prefers reserve team & lower english league players to the eL. Ireland lose 5-2.

Says a lot when Henderson playing lower League One in england gets in as 2nd choice keeper when the likes of Mick Devine has 2/3 of his league games as clean sheets this season & performed very well in europe in last few years.

Andy O'Brien plays reserve Premiership football & even starts the game.

Alan O'Brien another reserve Premiership player comes off the bench.

:rolleyes:

The championship in England is a cut above the EL. Henderson played last season at Brighton.
11/10/2006, 12:05 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

as an outside observer, I wondered why, if EL players are good enough to play at international level, foreign scouts haven't been snapping them up to play in bigger, more professional Leagues.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the EL is full of Premiership, La Liga or Serie A standard players but neither was the Ireland team that played against Cyprus. To follow up your point above, no one has snapped up Andy O'Brien to play at a higher level than Portsmouth's reserves. An EL XI isn't going to happen, and nor should it but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that one or two would have been out of place.
11/10/2006, 12:13 PM
Dodge

Thats the bottom line for me Schumi. Some el players are the 3rd/4th/5th/5th best players available in their positions, yet some are still overlooked.
11/10/2006, 12:17 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soper

You seem to think that every player in every league in the world that isn't one of the big European leagues leaves once they are good enough.

Where did I say that?

I just think that the better teams, in the better Leagues, tend to have better players.

Of course, there are occasional exceptions such as Larsson when he was at Celtic and there may well be similar exceptions in the EL, but I still feel that they are just that: exceptions.

Btw, I don't come on here just to have a pop at the EL. When I lived in Belfast I was a regular supporter of IL football and since moving to London I've watched a lot of lower League football.
In fact, I heartily dislike the way so-called "smaller" clubs get overlooked at the expense of the "big" Premiership clubs - and I say that as a lifelong Spurs fan.
11/10/2006, 12:23 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soper

Wow, he is preffered over Derry's reserve keeper?Yipideedoodaa

That PJ comment was just a wee "dig".

Would you like to address my main point which was that Ingham of the English "4th." Division is regularly preferred over Mannus and Morris, the top two IL keepers, by Sanchez, a manager who started out at Sligo Rovers.
11/10/2006, 12:25 PM
Soper

I've always thought that Sanchez thinks that both the EL and IL, in particular the EL are the same as they were when he was manager.Idon't think he can comprehend the improvement made, particularly in the full time set ups in the EL
11/10/2006, 12:27 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

That PJ comment was just a wee "dig".

Would you like to address my main point which was that Ingham of the English "4th." Division is regularly preferred over Mannus and Morris, the top two IL keepers, by Sanchez, a manager who started out at Sligo Rovers.

You are opening up and Irish League vs Eircom League debate, do we really want to go down that road? Whatever about the relative strengths of the Blues and Glens, I get more exercise putting out the washing that Mannus or Morris do against the likes of Loughall and Limavady.

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