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One can only imagine the amount of "back channel" discussions that go on between these guys. Like a bad episode of Spooks, filmed on Craggy Island. By bishops.
We should rent our politicians and union leaders out around the world, as backscratchers. Buy one get one free, we have a surplus.
adam
12 days unpaid leave for Public sector workers across the board. Cant see that been a runner to the lower paid workers.
Surely they'll be jumping at it, because all the coverage is about how great a deal it is for the public sector worker!Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
Cannot see how the Government will physically mange it. How can we get teachers to take unpaid leave when we are short on them and similarily the Guards are struggling with rising crime etc. It's to subjective imo.
Secondly, there was a general acceptance that the public sectors workers on 25 - 35 k couldn't afford to take a hit and personally i would have left them alone this time around, these 12 days are effectively 5% pay cut accross the board and therefore unjust. Some departments are obviously over staffed and have excess capacity, more as we know are already struggling. I know a 2 public sector workers who were considering crossing the picket this thursday as the day without pay was 5% deduction they could not afford in the run up to xmas.
It's a tricky one without a doubt. I'd come into that 25-35k bracket and so would most of my work mates and we were generally more in favour of the unpaid leave than a cut, the way we're looking at it is at least this is supposed to be a temporary measure and it has a sort of compensation, whereas a cut would never be reversed.
It will make things awkward in terms of work building up and I'd imagine in areas like social welfare and redundancy as well as the obvious front line services it will be very difficult to implement. It does further illustrate the fact that there is an awful lot of inefficiency in the public service, when we can claim the 10-12 days of additional unpaid leave won't affect services, but it does offer the opportunity to make short term saving and long term reform in a more manageable manner.
There's a recruitment moratorium in place until 2014 already so there'll be a dramatic reduction in numbers purely by natural wastage in the next 4 years.
Anyone know how this would work for teachers? Are the kids gonna get a fortnight's less education? Are the government going to try and not pay them for 12 days during the summer?!
I heard some half effort f explanation on Morning ireland... basicaly they say it could be credited to them such that perhaps in 2011 they can take 20-24 days off (i assume like a months sabitical) .
The summer holiday's might be a good one!
In short I don't know! fine Gael in opposition as they can't see how it would work and lets be honest, they'll have to deal with it shortly.
I've no more details at this stage than what's been in the press. In frontline areas, they are talking of it being spread over 3 or 4 years. Teaching is the only place I see a real issue as they have fixed holidays (which is a bone of contention in itself).
It's a short term measure whilst efficiency/ flexibility changes come into place, and the embargo will remain in place. It's a 5% cut in spending, and I would think that it can be managed without Core services being effected. Short time working and temp layoff's are used throughout the private sector (only with those workers getting social welfare). I think some people/ commentators are obsessed with bitterness at this stage, and if public servants aren't in sackclothes they won't be happy.
As to whether it will be accepted, the devil will be in the detail judging by reaction here. A lot of public sector organisations no longer allow various family friendly (and cost reducing) policies on foot of the embargo. If this gives staff back some flexibility it will probably pass on the basis of it being a temp measure.
I hear on the 12 O'Clock News that Cowen is welching already - either because the headlines or because the garlic muncher has spat the clove. Again, whatever about the merits or otherwise, another example of decisive leadership :rolleyes:
It is used in the private sector yes, but not in company's who are at 100% capacity. Much of the public sector is bursting at the seems if you believe what some of the Unions say. The more I think about it the more I see the tail wagging the dog. It will equate to 3m days a year, I don't think the public sector is flexible enough to manage the work load!Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It's managing the non-replacement of staff, and non-renewal of temps. In our place there's been a big reorganisation of people with the change in workload that's happened - all done with agreement/ cooperation of the union (It doesn't make the media, as it doesn't suit the agenda).
This is supposed to be the short term cost saving, in lieu of the longer term flexibility etc. And the biggest obstacle to that is managers protecting their own patch/power, and Government letting them, rather than unions/ staff.
Cowen has already welched, and much more importantly Joe Duffy was spinning against it, so it's dead in the water imo anyway (we're governed more by liveline callers than the Cabinet). More strikes next week when Cowen officially reneges on last nights agreement?
Didn't here Joe but i bet every self employed builder and their houswife this side of Clontarf was on. I think you are right about Cowan turning, Lenihan was at it on the news at one from Brussels I think.
This will make the Public sector more voiceiferous (sic) imo and probably more militant fueled of course by the lads with beards. Maybe the 8th of December would be a good day for a strike, if a quarter weren't already off that day! Actually the private sector will go out with them and we will soon see who is running (not ruining) this country!
100 odd jobs gone in PTSB, reducing branches
My view would be a two day strike, Tuesday and Wednesday next week.
At this stage, they could say they were cutting pay by 20% and there'd be outrage that it wasn't enough.
btw1 Interesting that even FG in Bruton see the need for an overall economic plan to be able to sell pay cuts.
btw2 IBEC on Morning Ireland yesterday basically admitted that they wanted to use cuts in public sector pay to drive down pay across the economy. Those liveline callers should be careful what they wish for.
Ref the 2nd BTW... I can't believe it. Not becuase i don't believe it is necessary, it is, but because the clown actuall said it. Mr Fielding was it?
Speaking for my self and my missus, we are happy to work of a lower level of income provided that the cost of every thing else (I accept mortgage repayments will increase) comes back to more European (or British isles) norms. I work for a English compnay based in Ireland, their production staff are on about 7.50 per hour. They can get a sandwich for .99p on their way to work, they can get a pint for 2.20, they can buy a mid range three year old car for less than 5k. They can do a shop in ASADA/MORRISION/MATLAN for about 35% what we pay.
In 2008 My 2006 Irish opel vectra cost more than my boss'es English 06 S type Jag. We need to reduce costs here, public and private , in tandom or we will see further erosion of FDI currently here and ruin the prospect of ever winning any back. WE SIMPLY HAVE TO. Everybody.
No, not even the ISME nutjob, it was Danny McCoy from IBEC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
I think you're speaking for everyone, both Public and Private sector. But there's no plan to focus on other costs and rampant profiteering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
where is that - sorry:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
Yeah agree most people are really happy to take a little hurt (pay levy, etc), but its also seems that its not felt across the board at all.
Wonder if the politicians will be taking any reduction in their salaries in the near future
Didn't they take a 10% pay cut a few months ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Did that even bring them down into a 5 figure salary? Oh, the pain that must have inflicted on them... If they'd taken 25-30% that would be comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
[[/QUOTE]Quote:
QUOTE=
Yeah agree most people are really happy to take a little hurt (pay levy, etc), but its also seems that its not felt across the board at all.
Wonder if the politicians will be taking any reduction in their salaries in the near future
As John says they took 10% during the year I think, I assume they got hit with the pension levy also but if politicans say they are asking for public sector pay to be cut by 7.5% for those on more than say 50k, I guess they will be taking the same level of cut?
Funny to see a couple of bodies who had previously claimed for PS numbers to be "slashed" to start crying that unpaid leave would affect the levels of service as the PS would lose 5% of working hours.
Nothing will ever be enough in a climate that outright lies become accepted as reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Alainis Morrissette might even write a song about it!
This Government should go now, simple. Very interesting letter to the editor in todays indi
Name and address in paper.Quote:
I AM very pleased with the unions' suggestion of unpaid leave for public servants. This will mean that I have three extra weeks at home with my young children.
With the tax rebate that I will get, I don't think I will lose much of my salary. However, as I am a teacher in a small school, I do have concerns for the pupils who will lose out on teaching days and I am concerned as to who will supervise them in my absence.
I am quite surprised that the Government has agreed to this deal and I am wondering what mandate Mr McLoone has.
Did he become and I failed to notice?
Talks collapsed this afternoon.
Here we go again.
It really does sound like Cowen and co ballsed this up completely. Worked their way to agreement, then threw the rattle out of the pram because they were afraid their idiot backbenchers and IBEC would be annoyed with them.
What ever happens in the Budget social partnership is dead and there may be trade union trouble for years to come after the waste of time this barganing was. WTF did FF even go into this for?
It would have been far far better to have just said srew you to the unions in the first place, this government is so inept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
mmm, where did this teacher find out the exact workings of the proposed system. It was not known whether the teachers woudl be gettting the unpaid leave on top of the 2/3 summer holidays.
Secondy how could you trust the indo when they have not published the name of the person. I honestly would not trust anything that comes from that paper in reliation to industrial relations.
The Indo did post the name and address, I didn't cos I didn't think it would be right but told ye where to get it by saying "name and address in paper".
I think the point the letter was trying to make was this 12 days un paid wasn't / isn't workable at the front end, Garda. teachers hospitals, social welfare. It's the back up of these services where the fat is as far as I am aware. And although I have said everybody should be taking a cut i believe some should be taking more than others. Politicans who are being paid 110k a year I think, should be hit with 20% and to allow them still earn c 90k which lets be honest is about 60 k more then they'd earn in industry as many on this board are who are much more intellectual than them are on the average industrial.
General election on the cards, Government Tds are pulling rank and the budget might not passed by the house.
I think Begg has just hit the nail on the head on RTE 1 just now. He has a view that the Government, had 2 aspects to the talks. One stated (correct the budget defecit) and one not stated (to bring down wages across the board both private and public as response to the fact we cannot reduce our currency). When the talks were pretty close to agreement on the first bit, the back benchers and some ministers in their talks with ISME shat themselves as the unstated goal would not be achieved even though the first bit would.
I thin his analysis is dead right, and that is why this private sector public sector divide is rubbish and it goes alon with what has been said here all along that a reduction in wages in the public sector does not do any good to paye workers in the private sector.
Ché? I fail to see how this is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Is that meant to be some sort of dig there John. Pathetic really. Here is some economics. Mary works in the public sector, she has 100 euro disposable income a week, after the cuts she has 90 euro disposable income a week, she is now less likely to be spending as much money in shops, pubs restaurants etc and as a result business goes down in the private sector, with eventual pay cuts and lay offs.
Secondly as the Irish economy cannot develue its currency, IBEC and ISME and others want to devalue the wages across the board here in Ireland. The very fact that the targeted figure of 1.3 billion was going to be met, but yet the government with the backing of ISME and IBEC pulled the plug, suggests that that was not the actual goa. It was their stated goal but their unstated one, was much more important to them, which is to drive down wages across the board. Cuts in public sector wages will lead to further cuts in private sector wages, using scenario 1 as an excuse.
No, Neil, it was a simple request for clarification on a rather bold claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
This is a spectacularly reductionist piece of economics. Mary's pay decrease also reduces pay inequality and drives price reductions which benefit people on low incomes in the private sector. The interactions between these elements are not trivial.Quote:
Here is some economics. Mary works in the public sector, she has 100 euro disposable income a week, after the cuts she has 90 euro disposable income a week, she is now less likely to be spending as much money in shops, pubs restaurants etc and as a result business goes down in the private sector, with eventual pay cuts and lay offs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
No the Che comment, was cheap and childish dig, thats what I was referring to in my first sentence.
The tax intake also reduces, as Mary is paying less tax and the businesses are making less money and employing less people, so the tax take reduces and as a result there are less services for people in the society. I must be rather foolish not to cop that ISME IBECT and Fianna Fail are in reality puruing an equality agenda which sees a smaller spread of wealth across the economy.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...s-1965635.html
Fair play to gene kerrigan an oasis in the desert that is that rag
The day here, day there strikes are a waste of time - ill only be voting for an all out strike from now on!!! (will never happen though unfotunately when ye consider the one day stike was only voted by 70% of pseu members!!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Oh, I understand the confusion. I was using it in its idiomatic Spanish meaning - roughly, "Eh?" (pretentious, moi?), but it's certainly ambiguous. Not my intention, and apologies for the confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Look, I'm not saying that ultimately you're wrong. What I'm saying is that claiming it's as simple as you are claiming is foolish.Quote:
The tax intake also reduces...
I was not saying it was simple, I suppose were are consricted on this board by the conventions of a post. In that we cannot write a paper on this or a thesis on it, or I do not have the time anyway. The problem is, that these are complex matters and we have policians and economists who are trying to paint it as a simple, if we solve the budgetary issues it will be all resolved. I know many people who perceive that that unions are getting in the way of the country recovering, and if onlyl we could get public sector pay cuts we would be out of the hot water. As Gene Kerrigan said, they said this about Nama, and about Lisbon.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Is it no spelt Qué by the way, hence the confusion. No prob on that, I thought you were trying to portray me as a die in the wool socialist.
[QUOTE]
I think Neil the goal is, and I agree it's idealistic, with prices falling on the back of competitiveness Mary will still buy the same goods for 90 euro.........albeit eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
We are so small here, we need to realise we have to be export led to get anything like the "standard of Living" we had, or might aspire to. BTW I have standard in qoutes becasue it is argued we had f... all working 60 hours a week anyway.
We need foregin currency to keep this country going and becuase of the Strong Euro (weak dollar and sterling depending on how you look at it) our exporters, who add the real value to our GNP, just cannot survive let alone expand. I'm talking about the small food producer with ten people, or the metal fabricator with 50 people etc. The real economy.
The storey's about 400 million euro being lost/spent up north this year suits the government at the moment, don't be fooled by it as it is only the turnover of four large car dealerships and in the scheme of things not a whole lot.
sorry if I upset some Louthonians!
Plus the corrupt seeling of our gas resources off the coast of Mayo fit in with this small open polity view. I agree we are a small open polity who needs to be export led. Hence why we should have had tax breaks for people to invest in entrepreneurs rather than property. In addition we should not have sold out natural resources so norwegian speculators can take the profits, which help the schools and hospitals of norway while our ones go to ****.
It really is time for Fianna Fail to get the hell out of there. Unfortunately people who do not see all of this will probably be patting them on the back for standing up to the unions.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1206/partnership.htmlQuote:
Union leaders have warned that public sector pay cuts in Wednesday's budget could lead to chaos and unrest.
Peter McLoone of IMPACT told RTÉ that the Finance Minister Brian Lenihan had cautioned last year that pay cuts in France could lead to riots - and warned that we could expect a similar reaction here.
Strange thing to predict. Judging by the polls yesterday , the majority of the public blame the unions /public service. Now the unions are pedicting riots.
Silly man imo
The Public service people I talk to in the pub, at football matches etc are nowhere near what he is talking about. I'm sick saying it but in my experince there is a general acceptance that pay is going to be cut and most of the PS are prepared to get on with it.
Neil, i think your view on the gas fields is a bit extreme though, I agree we missed a trick there.
He's wrong, because the Irish are to thick and/or lazy to stand up for themselves. Do you think a Government in any democracy would've survived to even be in a position to give this budget, given they were the main cause of it? Do you think in most countries the population would've fallen hook, line and sinker for the divide and conquer tactics of making it worker v worker?
I think public servanst might accept cuts, if they see the top boys taking circa 25%. I doubt that will happen, as TD and Ministers pay is linked to the top public servants, it'll be some lip service amount instead. People have also been consistent in calling for an overall economic plan to provide context for any cuts. We are still waiting for the Government to produce one.
btw We were raped of our natural resources, such as the gas, by corrupt Governments. We don't even have surity of supply, never mind a financial benefit. Look at the signatories of the various deals giving over our resources, and the tax deals done subsequently.