The Budget Thread

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

:eek:
Perhaps its my personal bias as I am a smoker myself, but (and perhaps I'll be slated for generalising) the 50 cent extra on cigarettes is disgraceful too. I know that they've done this in previous years and that it is an attempt to stop young people from smoking, but I would think that poorer people generally smoke more, making the extra 50 cents a tax on the poor. If you don't have much money 8.05 is a LOT of money to be spending on cigarettes each day. I just don't know how the vulnerable in society are supposed to cope with the pressures that this budget has brought.

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I just can't agree with that at all. €8.05 is a lot of money to spend on cigarettes a day and that's the idea,to penalise you for smoking and discourage it. To say that the vulnerable in society need to smoke to cope with the pressure of the budget is a silly argument in my opinion. They'd be smoking regardless of the economic climate and if they don't have enough money to buy all the cigarettes they want and not scrimp on other things that's their choice and they shouldn't be complaining that they're starving because cigarettes are too dear. The same applies to drink by the way, it's your choice how you spend your money.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

These guys need to be hunted out of government now. Not in 3 years when they'll be firing goodies at the morons that voted them back in the last time, but right now this minute.

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Governments collapsed for less serious budget issues. Ask John Bruton in 1982.

Sickening to watch Lenihan get the reception after his speech that has screwed half the country. A round of applause you'd expect, but not a standing ovation. :eek::mad:

The changes to alcohol tax are consistent with the recent off licence changes banning sales after 10pm. After 10pm is exactly the time you might want alcohol so of course can only get it in the pub,

The only reason I can see for applying "Lenihans levy" is that they thought that it would seen to be "only" 1%. Even 2% on the top rate of tax would be unlikely to bring in the same money. It can only seen as least worse political decision. I heard him explain it by saying that 34% of people (don't know what considered people for that figure) don't pay any tax so only fair they contribute. Taxing people at the minimum wage only serves to create wage inflation which in turn leads to price increases & makes the country more & more expensive.

On the cycling allowance 400k cost in full year would equate to E500 for 800 people.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

I just can't agree with that at all. €8.05 is a lot of money to spend on cigarettes a day and that's the idea,to penalise you for smoking and discourage it. The same applies to drink by the way, it's your choice how you spend your money.

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I disagree. Tax on old reliables is just easy ways to generate revenue. they dont seem have any effect on stopping people drinking and smoking. If anything the increase on cigarettes will probably just feed black market. making both less easy to purchase would be more effective imo.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

I just can't agree with that at all. €8.05 is a lot of money to spend on cigarettes a day and that's the idea,to penalise you for smoking and discourage it. To say that the vulnerable in society need to smoke to cope with the pressure of the budget is a silly argument in my opinion. They'd be smoking regardless of the economic climate and if they don't have enough money to buy all the cigarettes they want and not scrimp on other things that's their choice and they shouldn't be complaining that they're starving because cigarettes are too dear. The same applies to drink by the way, it's your choice how you spend your money.

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I might be the argument that the high prices are a deterrent if they showed any statistics to back it up. They haven't, nor will they provide them in the future. This is a tax on smokers, nothing else.

We all know smoking is terrible for individuals and a strain on health services etc, but nowhere does the givernment say that taxes on cigarettes will be used in any specific, targetted way

BTW I'm a non smoker and one of those who thinks all smokers are evil

The Government increasing price on cigarettes by as little as 50c is as much to discourage people from smoking as a dealer putting the price of a bag of coke up a fiver is trying to discourage people from buying his goods.

I don't think all smokers are evil. Nor drug dealers for that matter. Merely misguided.

Given the financial situation as I a non smoker I think 50c on cigarettes is a good decision although really only made to get easy money. Without dragging this off topic smoking is largely a choice (especially for the young) & if someone really wants to give it up they can - obviously it will be harder for older people.

Not to drag this off topic any further but it wasn't really my whole point that this levy would reduce smoking in any meaningful manner. It probably won't but if it has any chance of doing so I won't criticise it. I can't see any benefit to reducing the price of them, as pete say if people want to stop they can, if they're not strong enough to do so it's unfortunate but even just smoking less would help both their pocket and their health. Just from a personal point of view, I was never really a smoker bar when I had the odd cigarette as a teenager just to "look cool". My parents both gave it up after smoking for about 30 years and are now completely off them something like 17 years. I'm not really death on smokers but it's their choice to smoke and if that costs them a large amount of money I don't think they can complain about it.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Yeah, and the kids don't eat, go to school or wear any clothes. And where are you getting 5 or 6 grand extra for the kids?

Shocking lack of real world experience exposed there anto...

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Is there not some payment of about 1100 euro's per kids under 6,then for 2 kids you get 332 per month . so for 2 kids 6184 euro.

If you dont have a mortgage to pay for then your sorted if you do the interest rate went down by about 480 euro per 100,000 so thats where you find 300 euro for a tax levy.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

actual bike lanes that are not on the roads so as your life is not in danger might help.

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Off topic but I strongly disagree with this.

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Originally Posted by John83

It's either a retarded attempt at PR by raising income tax without increasing the rates or a cynical decision to tax the poorest people in the country.

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I think it's their attempt to cut through all the tax exemptions they've given out over the last decade. Reversing the bad laws would be too big a job so they've declared a new type of tax that that those laws don't apply to.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Shocking lack of real world experience exposed there anto...

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Everyone has real world experience, there's no other world.

I used to think that too...

I didn't realise there were free houses out there anto. Can you hook me up with one?

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Originally Posted by anto1208

are you sure that's right ?

300 euro means you are earning 30 grand a year if you have say 2 kids you ll get 5 or 6 grand extra for them . i find it hard to imagine someone can class themselves as struggling on 36 grand a year. if your struggling then im screwed coz i dont earn anywhere near that much.

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I was rounding it up a little. I earn under 30k. As for getting the 5 to 6 grand extra I dont know what you are talking about as I get feck all. Try bringing 2 young men up on under 30k where your mortgate is 2/3 your wages and they eat equivilent to men and are now wearing shoes and clothes that are subject to adult vat and you will see where the struggle is amigo.

Just read your reply to dodge and if you really think that child benefit pays for the extra expense of having kids you will be in for a real shock someday. Recently I spent over 3k getting my sons teeth fixed as he was 1/2mm off getting them fixed for free. I couldnt bear the thoughts of him going through life lacking confidence and the ability to smile for the sake of 3k+ so I have sweated and scrimped to fix his teeth with no help from goverment or his father but it was worth every penny. Now the goverment want to remove any pennies I might have left from my wages leaving me unable to give my kids the things they deserve. I work approximately 50-60 hour weeks for my money but now will not be able to do things for my children that many take for granted because I will be hit with this extra bill at a time when I can barely afford to put petrol in my car. This is not the goverment I deserve or wanted. Brian Lenihan, live my life for a week and you will change your mind.

As for the airport tax it really wont affect me as I havent been able to afford to leave the country in 3 years when I went to my brothers wedding in spain.

Only favour FF (or fibbing f***ers as I like to call them) ever did me was lull me into a false sense of security long enough to move from a mortgage free life to the cash strapped hell I now live in.

What she said.
I've been speechless with rage for the last two days about this; the income levy, coupled with the cod- patriotic appeal that we all need to do our bit is scumbag politics of the highest - or lowest - order. Taking €180 off someone on the minimum wage, when, as Magicme says, it can be the difference between heating the house and not, cutting the childrens' allowance at 18, a year when you'll probably need it most, taking away the automatic medical card for over 70s, increasing class sizes, upping college reg. fees - all these things will make vital differences in peoples' lives between just about coping, between having some choice and having none. And meanwhile, with the extension of the Affordable Housing scheme they've handed their builder chums €1.65 m from public funds.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I didn't realise there were free houses out there anto. Can you hook me up with one?

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Where did i say you get a free house? Lots of people dont have mortgages as they have them paid off. Lots of single mums get social housing or they keep the family home after the split, or they inherited it from there parents. There are many reasons why some one wouldnt have a mortgage to pay . And if you do have a mortgage you save more than the 300 euro levy on the interest rate reduction. ( ill also point you to the last line of magicme's responce below. what does it say she moved from what to what ??)

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Originally Posted by Magicme

I was rounding it up a little. I earn under 30k. As for getting the 5 to 6 grand extra I dont know what you are talking about as I get feck all. Try bringing 2 young men up on under 30k where your mortgate is 2/3 your wages and they eat equivilent to men and are now wearing shoes and clothes that are subject to adult vat and you will see where the struggle is amigo.

Just read your reply to dodge and if you really think that child benefit pays for the extra expense of having kids you will be in for a real shock someday. Recently I spent over 3k getting my sons teeth fixed as he was 1/2mm off getting them fixed for free. I couldnt bear the thoughts of him going through life lacking confidence and the ability to smile for the sake of 3k+ so I have sweated and scrimped to fix his teeth with no help from goverment or his father but it was worth every penny. Now the goverment want to remove any pennies I might have left from my wages leaving me unable to give my kids the things they deserve. I work approximately 50-60 hour weeks for my money but now will not be able to do things for my children that many take for granted because I will be hit with this extra bill at a time when I can barely afford to put petrol in my car. This is not the goverment I deserve or wanted. Brian Lenihan, live my life for a week and you will change your mind.

As for the airport tax it really wont affect me as I havent been able to afford to leave the country in 3 years when I went to my brothers wedding in spain.

Only favour FF (or fibbing f***ers as I like to call them) ever did me was lull me into a false sense of security long enough to move from a mortgage free life to the cash strapped hell I now live in.

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Ah will you stop you earn 30 grand and you say 2/3 of that goes on a mortgage ! what in gods name where you doing getting a mortgage that costs you 20 grand a year !!! for a house for 3 of ye to live in if your a poor single mother. How big is your mortgage 300,000 ? And what bank gave you a mortgage thats 10 times your salery !!! That shardly the goverments fault thats your choice.

if it is 300,000 then you are saving over 1200 with the interest rate reduction last week so you are actually up money after paying the 300euro levy.

And for 2 kids under 18 you get 4 grand in childrens allowance.if you are getting nothing like you say then check it out you are entitled to it, if your a single parent you could also look into getting that allowance allthough i think your wages may be too high for that one.

If i was you id restructure that mortgage or sell and buy a smaller house so that only 10 grand a year goes on the mortgage.

collect your benifits that you seem to be missing out on.

There you go ive just got you an extra 14,000 euro a year have a holiday for yourself .

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

Off topic but I strongly disagree with this.

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Just out of interest how can you "strongly disagree" with this?:confused:

On the childrens allowance thing - I wouldnt begrudge anyone with kids an extra few bob from the state. As Magicme said it barely makes a dint in the cost. Also the same kids will be making a contribution to the state in a few years time so it pays for itself in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Just out of interest how can you "strongly disagree" with this?:confused:

On the childrens allowance thing - I wouldnt begrudge anyone with kids an extra few bob from the state. As Magicme said it barely makes a dint in the cost. Also the same kids will be making a contribution to the state in a few years time so it pays for itself in the long run.

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Just to clear it up incase people think ( not directed at you ) im begrudging people anything i think all the expenses for children should be taken care of i think the CA should be doubled along with totally free education, medical dental expenses etc. also as soon as you turn 65 the same should happen. Its my duty to pay for that while im of working age i have no problem at all with that i would happily pay 25-30% tax if if was spent wisely on looking after people.

Thats not my point at all im just pointing out people have gotten Hysterical about this budget it has done very little to change peoples lives it did nothing but hamper the economy which is the problem with it. not that people will have an extra few quid to pay. People are getting hung up on the wrong things .

Petrol went up 8 cent ! it went down 12 cent the week before so its cheaper now than a month ago .
the 1 % levy ! so what interest rates went down.

If you contrast how well you did a month ago to now you are actually better off now.People should be focused on what this budget didnt do rather than what it did do.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

I just can't agree with that at all. €8.05 is a lot of money to spend on cigarettes a day and that's the idea,to penalise you for smoking and discourage it. To say that the vulnerable in society need to smoke to cope with the pressure of the budget is a silly argument in my opinion. They'd be smoking regardless of the economic climate and if they don't have enough money to buy all the cigarettes they want and not scrimp on other things that's their choice and they shouldn't be complaining that they're starving because cigarettes are too dear. The same applies to drink by the way, it's your choice how you spend your money.

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You misunderstood me. As I said, perhaps it's my bias in being a smoker, but I did not say that the pressure of the budget will make me smoke. At the same time though, and increase in the price of cigarettes will not almost all deter smokers from smoking. People will find a way to smoke regardless of the price, but ist just puts them under more pressure financially. When the government put the prices up 50 cents a few years ago I was largely in agreement with it but as it's already 7.55 it's already way too expenisive. Anyone who is on social welfare or in a low paying job and is having to pay that each day and raise kids is really going to struggle and if you've been smoking for 20 years you'll only give up if you want to, not because the government says they want you to. This is nothing more than a tax on smoking. However, there are plenty of other poor things brought in in this budget, this just happens to be one of the many.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

I was rounding it up a little. I earn under 30k. As for getting the 5 to 6 grand extra I dont know what you are talking about as I get feck all. Try bringing 2 young men up on under 30k where your mortgate is 2/3 your wages and they eat equivilent to men and are now wearing shoes and clothes that are subject to adult vat and you will see where the struggle is amigo.

Just read your reply to dodge and if you really think that child benefit pays for the extra expense of having kids you will be in for a real shock someday. Recently I spent over 3k getting my sons teeth fixed as he was 1/2mm off getting them fixed for free. I couldnt bear the thoughts of him going through life lacking confidence and the ability to smile for the sake of 3k+ so I have sweated and scrimped to fix his teeth with no help from goverment or his father but it was worth every penny. Now the goverment want to remove any pennies I might have left from my wages leaving me unable to give my kids the things they deserve. I work approximately 50-60 hour weeks for my money but now will not be able to do things for my children that many take for granted because I will be hit with this extra bill at a time when I can barely afford to put petrol in my car. This is not the goverment I deserve or wanted. Brian Lenihan, live my life for a week and you will change your mind.

As for the airport tax it really wont affect me as I havent been able to afford to leave the country in 3 years when I went to my brothers wedding in spain.

Only favour FF (or fibbing f***ers as I like to call them) ever did me was lull me into a false sense of security long enough to move from a mortgage free life to the cash strapped hell I now live in.

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You can claim 20% (or 41%) of this back through the tax system (have a look on www.revenue.ie), so thats a small help from the government, even though it should be free. Im not long after getting braces off and I was able to claim part of the cost back. You are entitled to claim for most close relations, its all on the 'tax relief' section of that site

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Originally Posted by anto1208

If you dont have a mortgage to pay for then your sorted if you do the interest rate went down by about 480 euro per 100,000 so thats where you find 300 euro for a tax levy.

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Mortgage interest relief went down for the vast majority of homeowners

Interest rates only went down to levels they were a year ago, and even then, fixed rate mortgaegs aren't affected

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Petrol went up 8 cent ! it went down 12 cent the week before so its cheaper now than a month ago

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Are we going month to month now? Its more expensive now that it was 3 months ago.

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If you contrast how well you did a month ago to now you are actually better off now.

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Thats because most taxes and levies haven't come into being yet,. When they do, people will have less money in their pocket and pretty much everything they have to spend money on will be more expensive. You may be better off, but don't think that applies to the majority.

College fees raised dramatically. Education grants cut. Child allowance cut. VAT raised. Raising petrol and motor tax at the same time as cutting public transport spending.

Oh, I forget FF didn't raise income tax :rolleyes:

After all the recent discussion on the re-introduction of college fees fair;ly sharp practice to raise "registration" fees. At E1500 they are all but college fees in name.

FF seem to have started the process of treating themselves apart over the budget. Back bench revolt & talks of u-turn in the over 70s medical card withdrawal. has it been mentioned how much this is supposed to raise?

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Originally Posted by pete

After all the recent discussion on the re-introduction of college fees fair;ly sharp practice to raise "registration" fees. At E1500 they are all but college fees in name.

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Whether you agree with the reintroduction of fees or not this government "levy" for college is an absolute joke. A lot of people would be better off if fees were introduced and means tested rather than this. Someone told me that the registration fee was 300 euro in 2002. That's a 400% increase in 6 years. It's absolutely sickening. I know that people who are eligible for grants don't have to pay it, but there are plenty who aren't eligible and will struggle to pay this.

Registration fee was 815, iirc, last year, 900 this year and going up to 1500 for next year. Almost doubling it in the two years since I started.

There'll be a student protest next Wednesday in Dublin over the fees thing. I imagine the reistration fee will pop up too.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

Where did i say you get a free house?

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You started wittering on about people not having mortgages, when we're discussing a specific case here where mortgages were never even mentioned. Either stick to the specific case, stick to a general case, or better yet, be quiet and let the adults speak.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

You started wittering on about people not having mortgages, when we're discussing a specific case here where mortgages were never even mentioned. Either stick to the specific case, stick to a general case, or better yet, be quiet and let the adults speak.

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:rolleyes:
You tried to make a smart ass comment it backfired and now your getting ****y about it. Is that how adults act ? very sad .

I didnt know if she had a mortgage so i had to give both options with and without mortgages and explained why both would show why she shouldnt be left without heating for the winter because of a 300 euro levy.

Can no one tell McCain that the Irish Corporation tax is 12.5% & now the 11% he keeps mentioning? :rolleyes:

Is this good free advertising?

Sorry for the off topic,

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Just out of interest how can you "strongly disagree" with this?:confused:

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By cycling around Dublin and wherever else and finding the cycle lanes up on the footpath to be much more dangerous than either the ones down on the road or the roads themselves.
The little bit of internet research I've done seems to back up my experience.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

Sorry for the off topic,
By cycling around Dublin and wherever else and finding the cycle lanes up on the footpath to be much more dangerous than either the ones down on the road or the roads themselves.
The little bit of internet research I've done seems to back up my experience.

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Well from cycling round dublin for last few years would totally disagree.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

You tried to make a smart ass comment it backfired and now your getting ****y about it. Is that how adults act ? very sad .

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I apologise for ridiculing you, I have a higher standard to bear and I should know better. However I remain of the opinion that you have a very poor grasp of household economics. Let's just leave it there.

adam

Could the medical card decision be the "VAT on childrens shoes" of this Government?

Not clear (to me anyway) how much last nights rollback by Mary Harney changes the situation.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Could the medical card decision be the "VAT on childrens shoes" of this Government?

Not clear (to me anyway) how much last nights rollback by Mary Harney changes the situation.

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Not really. I could see FF getting elected again in the morning. Doesnt seem to be any strong opposition to take their place.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Not really. I could see FF getting elected again in the morning. Doesnt seem to be any strong opposition to take their place.

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IF the opposition could come of detailed alternatives that they could explain to the voters they might make an impact but I am not convinced they are capable of that.

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Originally Posted by pete

IF the opposition could come of detailed alternatives that they could explain to the voters they might make an impact but I am not convinced they are capable of that.

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I think they should use shock and awe tactics. Just a simple "Are you ****ing kidding me? This shower again!?"

Anyone with that on a poster gets my vote.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I think they should use shock and awe tactics. Just a simple "Are you ****ing kidding me? This shower again!?"

Anyone with that on a poster gets my vote.

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Anyone Dodge? you sure?

Thing that gets me is this; Gubbermint takes away med. cards for over 70s, country goes apesh!t - Cowen relents (a bit) but explains how country is in dire straits financially and people need to understand this; people will prolly accept compromise on med. cards and grumble but not protest overmuch about income levy (far more inequitible) because, after all 'the country is in dire straits economically' - thing is, a large part of the reason for dire etc. is this Gubbermint's insane pumping of the housing bubble right up to the last budget a mere 10 months ago.....
But they'll get a let off on that, and the 'rescue a builder programme' (otherwise the AH scheme) will pass without a murmer because it looks like what its not, a scheme to help the less well off; tempting the less well off into buying something they might not be easily able to afford doesn't strike me as the job of government, somehow - snake oil sellers, the lot of them.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Not really. I could see FF getting elected again in the morning. Doesnt seem to be any strong opposition to take their place.

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The government can't climb down on their budgetary measures, as once they do so on one measure, every other vested interest will be looking for them to climb down on theirs.

The only way to get out of this is for the coalition to fall and receive their punishment at the ballot box. But I can't see the Greens pulling out. As they would have zero chance of getting back in, it would be the Turkeys voting for Christmas, if they did.

Did FF make a climbdown on last years budget too? :confused:

I would probably lose respect for the Greens if they left government as approved the budget & lets be honest they knew what they were getting themselves in for. I am not sure they have shown much yet but they need to prove they can govern & not just take pot shots from the opposition.

Government U Turn

Cowan:

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"We regret the anxiety that was caused by the failure to properly communicate the fact that over 70 per cent of pensioners over-70 would have been completely unaffected by the original proposal."

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:rolleyes:

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The new threshold for qualification for a medical card for over-70s is €700 a week for a single person, equivalent to €36,500 a year and €1,400 a week for a couple, or €73,000 a year.

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So they actually planned to implement a policy where apparently 95% of people retain their medical cards? Do they really think the top 5% of over 70s earners are demanding medical cards?

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Originally Posted by pete

FF seem to have started the process of treating themselves apart over the budget. Back bench revolt & talks of u-turn in the over 70s medical card withdrawal. has it been mentioned how much this is supposed to raise?

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I think a figure of €200 million was mentioned which as one economist pointed out is pretty small beans for the amount of hassle it caused.

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Could the medical card decision be the "VAT on childrens shoes" of this Government?

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It depends on whether there is somebody of the integrity of 1980s Jim Kemmy in that government.

So, er, no, would be your answer.

I end up saying it on every government issue so I'll say it again here. Whatever about FF, I just hope everyone has learned their lesson about voting Green.

Anymore liberal guilt types who remain unconvinced may I suggest adopting a third world child or something next time out instead of inflicting that arrogant shower of wasters on the country again.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

Ah will you stop you earn 30 grand and you say 2/3 of that goes on a mortgage ! what in gods name where you doing getting a mortgage that costs you 20 grand a year !!! for a house for 3 of ye to live in if your a poor single mother. How big is your mortgage 300,000 ? And what bank gave you a mortgage thats 10 times your salery !!! That shardly the goverments fault thats your choice.

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That seems about right for a mrotgage recently. i looked at houses with my partner in the donegal/derry border area recently (pre-bubble burst), and about 1700 yo yos a month would actually be a bit on the low side for houses round about here.

Giving medical cards to all over 70's was a stunt a couple of years ago. I've argued the point with both my parents & my wifes, both of whom will qualify . Why should high earners get a free medical card , when low earners just outside the limits can't?

Why do parents who pay primary fees for 6 years for their kids ie Gerards, Castleknock college etc. happily, not pay when they go on to third level?