Nations League draw

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

No issue at all with some kind of protest in the stadium, in fact I agree there should be one. But let's face it, it's not going to make a single iota of difference. Nor would Ireland not fulfilling the fixture make any difference, or the supporters boycotting the game.

I'm seeing far too many Ireland supporters online who seem to genuinely think that what they do here actually matters. Maybe they should give some consideration as to whether their time could be better spent doing something that might actually make a difference to people suffering in Gaza rather than something that is likely to achieve nothing other than make them feel better about themselves.

If anyone actually wants to make a tangible difference to people's lives they'd be better served throwing a few quid at the link below.

https://www.map.org.uk/how-to-help/donate/

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In the most part I don't think we differ in opinion greatly, but I do think your framing of the situation is very wrong. You don't know why people feel or say the things they say, and trying to state what everyone feels weakens your argument. Especially when you assume everyone is virtue signalling.

I know i will never be in a situation where I can impact the situation in the middle East. It doesn't mean I don't feel for the situation and wish things were different, and me taking a private decision not to attend the game and not watch them doesn't impact anyone else but me, but i'd personally feel like i'm supporting the situation by normalising it, if I chose to do anything differently.

Others will attend the game and protest there, others may be more extreme in their actions, I hope no one goes too far but ultimately that is their decisions. What I can say for everyone is this, their actions do not matter less or more because they donated to the right cause.

Like do you need to have been on one of the aid flotilla's or a doctor in gaza before you "care enough". The Dunnes Stores workers protesting apartheid South Africa were more than likely scoffed at the same way back in those protests. But its all routed in the same belief, we are just saying "this isn't normal and we aren't letting you believe it is".

I'd love to think the game doesn't happen, but it will, i'd love to think no one will turn up, but they will, i'd love to think we as a nation can say "no not this time", but it likely won't happen. But I hope enough people protest in the right way that it starts something bigger

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

If anyone actually wants to make a tangible difference to people's lives they'd be better served throwing a few quid at the link below.

https://www.map.org.uk/how-to-help/donate/

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There's an assumption here that people have only noticed Israel are committing genocide in plain sight since the draw yesterday, and that we face a binary choice between protesting at this match, or supporting the Palestinian people financially. Utterly bizarre.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

People see similarities with this situation and the South African rugby tour of the early 80s.

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It's why Russia are banned from everything too - Poland took a stance, and the Czechs and Wales (I think?) backed them up

It's tough going against the crowd of course. Poland had more reason than most to object. But even normalising official reactions against them could accumulate into something bigger. And it's morally the right thing to do, as has been said

Not seeking to make any political point, but I suspect the key difference is/was that both Russia and UKR are in the same Confederation, meaning UEFA had to do something. (It wasn't just the possibility of the two being drawn together, since draws often keep two given countries separate. Rather it was because many other countries besides UKR would have refused to play Russia)

Whereas Israel and Palestine aren't, meaning that FIFA could avoid having to intervene.

Personally would not feel right watching this shower play a game(only a game!), whilst blithely ignoring a ceasefire and continuing to simultaneously slaughter the people of Gaza, and silently and slowly kill the hostages they have in their death camps.
An unsettlingly evil race of people, I’ll stay at as great a distance as I can whilst helping the enemies of this monstrosity as much as possible.
A boycott from either players or association would be both heartening and a correct moral stance.
From the FFG blowhards I expect nothing sadly.

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Originally Posted by Dermobohs

Personally would not feel right watching this shower play a game(only a game!), whilst blithely ignoring a ceasefire and continuing to simultaneously slaughter the people of Gaza, and silently and slowly kill the hostages they have in their death camps.
An unsettlingly evil race of people.

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I presume the Israeli players would have served in the IDF? I think it's mandatory there?

They mightn't have been front line, but another reason to have significant opposition to the match


https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...-41793251.html

Examiner reporting the game may be moved abroad - as Belgium did 18 months ago.

I'd be ok with that tbh

Disaster getting Israel. While I find our country's holier than thou pontificating over Gaza/Israel more than a little annoying at least I can somewhat ignore it and hope it doesn't do the country too much damage in the real world.

However when there is talk of moving matches and the likelihood is that a fired up and feeling persecuted Israel will take 6 points off us in Football, then that is a red line crossed.

To no surprise to me, our public stance on the middle eastern conflict will be coming back to bite us in the arse. But sure some people and politicians will feel good about themselves i suppose.

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Disaster getting Israel. While I find our country's holier than thou pontificating over Gaza/Israel more than a little annoying at least I can somewhat ignore it and hope it doesn't do the country too much damage in the real world.

However when there is talk of moving matches and the likelihood is that a fired up and feeling persecuted Israel will take 6 points off us in Football, then that is a red line crossed.

To no surprise to me, our public stance on the middle eastern conflict will be coming back to bite us in the arse. But sure some people and politicians will feel good about themselves i suppose.

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Holier than thou pontificating???
Sweet Jesus Christ.
They are actively perusing the annihilation of an entire people, as they have been since 1948.
Get a ****ing grip.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

There's an assumption here that people have only noticed Israel are committing genocide in plain sight since the draw yesterday, and that we face a binary choice between protesting at this match, or supporting the Palestinian people financially. Utterly bizarre.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

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That argument works in reverse too. There's been a hell of a lot more chat about this across the board since the draw was made yesterday. But, as you say, the genocide didn't start yesterday or anywhere close to it. So, if what people want to do is go out on the streets and protest (or whatever it is they want to do) they don't need to wait until October. They can do it as soon as tonight.

Look, I'm not trying to be contrarian or whatever here, but the reality here is that a football match is a complete irrelevance to what is actually happening in the middle east. If people want to make even a small difference they can do something that actually makes a small difference and I have offered a direct way to do that up the thread. If they want to make no difference but make themselves feel better and contribute to Ireland supporters' international standing as a "great bunch of lads" or whatever, they can take actions relating to the football match. Or, as you say, they can do both, but it's the one that will make no difference that is sucking in all the oxygen this week.

In fairness, of course a match against the Israeli national team in Ireland - featuring some players who have served in the IDF - is going to attract talk of protests. There's a difference between a beep-your-horn protest at a bridge and a protest at a major sporting event which could get Europe-wide coverage (the protest, not the match)

It's not surprising talk has escalated

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Disaster getting Israel. While I find our country's holier than thou pontificating over Gaza/Israel more than a little annoying at least I can somewhat ignore it and hope it doesn't do the country too much damage in the real world.

However when there is talk of moving matches and the likelihood is that a fired up and feeling persecuted Israel will take 6 points off us in Football, then that is a red line crossed.

To no surprise to me, our public stance on the middle eastern conflict will be coming back to bite us in the arse. But sure some people and politicians will feel good about themselves i suppose.

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We all fall at different points on the political spectrum, and I do believe everyone should be included in sport as best we can. But when things cross a certain line, it becomes untenable to sit on the fence.

But i'm trying my best to stay fair and hear you out here. But saying the stance of "our country" as "holier than though" needs explanation.

I'm not trying to get into definitions of "what is or isn't a genocide" or talking down to people that are less 'politically inclined'. But the idea that not being comfortable with the bombings, lack of aid, lack of journalism, lack of empathy and the lack of dignity that has been afforded to the Palestinians, and that somehow that there is a "real world" out there that see's things as they are, and the rest of us are fools. To be honest that's hard to hear and offensive to me.

I'm not accusing you of being a wind up merchant and will allow you a chance to defend yourself before passing judgement. But I find it very hard to accept that any person looking at other humans suffering, and their only concern is "are we sacrificing 6 points here". And look, i'll accept that that may be some people's perspective, but honestly, if it is genuinely what you think, i'm disappointed

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

That argument works in reverse too. There's been a hell of a lot more chat about this across the board since the draw was made yesterday. But, as you say, the genocide didn't start yesterday or anywhere close to it. So, if what people want to do is go out on the streets and protest (or whatever it is they want to do) they don't need to wait until October. They can do it as soon as tonight.

Look, I'm not trying to be contrarian or whatever here, but the reality here is that a football match is a complete irrelevance to what is actually happening in the middle east. If people want to make even a small difference they can do something that actually makes a small difference and I have offered a direct way to do that up the thread. If they want to make no difference but make themselves feel better and contribute to Ireland supporters' international standing as a "great bunch of lads" or whatever, they can take actions relating to the football match. Or, as you say, they can do both, but it's the one that will make no difference that is sucking in all the oxygen this week.

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I guess that's your opinion, but it flies in the face of history.

I can't think of another single pressure point that did more to bring down apartheid regime in South Africa than the sporting boycott. The 2 situations aren't an exact facsimile of each other, but there are similarities. If you look at the Wikipedia page about apartheid the word "rugby" appears 10 times. For context, the word "Tutu" is only on there 4 times.

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Originally Posted by Nelson Mandela

I became president sooner because of the sacrifices made by our athletes during the years of the boycott

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This conversation is dominating the national discourse because this sort of boycott is a tremendously powerful means of placing regimes like Israel outside the international pale. If the FAI can get the public backing of 4 or 5 other members of UEFA between now and October they should boycott the fixtures. Politically I can see why they have done what they have so far, but there's nothing to say they won't bow to public pressure on the other side of the Taoiseach getting out of the White House on Paddys Day and knowing if we are heading to Atlanta, GA to play in a World Cup game this summer.

Edit: A note of appreciation for the mods. They've spent years if not decades trying to keep political matters to the current affairs forum. And then this happens. God help them negotiating the next 9 months with this going on.

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Originally Posted by plib

we all fall at different points on the political spectrum, and i do believe everyone should be included in sport as best we can. But when things cross a certain line, it becomes untenable to sit on the fence.

But i'm trying my best to stay fair and hear you out here. But saying the stance of "our country" as "holier than though" needs explanation.

I think there might have been some atrocities committed in the name of irish nationalism


i'm not trying to get into definitions of "what is or isn't a genocide" or talking down to people that are less 'politically inclined'. But the idea that not being comfortable with the bombings, lack of aid, lack of journalism, lack of empathy and the lack of dignity that has been afforded to the palestinians, and that somehow that there is a "real world" out there that see's things as they are, and the rest of us are fools. To be honest that's hard to hear and offensive to me.

I think you've fleshed that out and drawn whatever you wanted from it

i'm not accusing you of being a wind up merchant and will allow you a chance to defend yourself before passing judgement. But i find it very hard to accept that any person looking at other humans suffering, and their only concern is "are we sacrificing 6 points here". And look, i'll accept that that may be some people's perspective, but honestly, if it is genuinely what you think, i'm disappointed

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in fairness it was a poorish play on the quote that football isnt a matter of life and death but more important than that (prob not accurate quote). Here, youre right, im a thousand times more concerned about the football than the politics, but im not unmoved by human suffering. I just dont tend to look up any of it and prefer to watch golf or football.

Sorry I've made an arse of that quote. I assume ye can work it out !

Yeah, let’s just thrash them instead…

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Originally Posted by Dermobohs

An unsettlingly evil race of people

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Good grief!

No different from what eg Israeli extremists say about the Palestinian people - the very definition of Racism.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

I can't think of another single pressure point that did more to bring down apartheid regime in South Africa than the sporting boycott. The 2 situations aren't an exact facsimile of each other, but there are similarities. If you look at the Wikipedia page about apartheid the word "rugby" appears 10 times. For context, the word "Tutu" is only on there 4 times.

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Cannot agree. Sure, the sporting boycott got a great deal of publicity, in these islands at least (90% of the world didn't know anything about Rugby or Cricket, or didn't much care if they did).

The apartheid government in South Africa fell in the early 1990s (culminating in 1994) due to a combination of intense internal mass resistance, crippling international economic sanctions, and the shifting geopolitical landscape after the Cold War. The regime became unsustainable due to rising internal conflict, a weakening economy, and the loss of international support, all of which caused De Klerk to read the writing on the wall and sue for peace while he still could.

The Cold War bit was very significant, since as this US Analysis states: "Defenders of the Apartheid regime, both inside and outside South Africa, had promoted it as a bulwark against communism. However, the end of the Cold War rendered this argument obsolete."
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/pcw/98678.htm

And while the rugby-loving Afrikaaners were very attached to their rugby and cricket etc, nonetheless they could live without it - they couldn't live without cheap oil etc.

Which is the same as Israel - when it comes to it, a monster like Netanyahu can live without Football etc.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

In fairness, of course a match against the Israeli national team in Ireland - featuring some players who have served in the IDF - is going to attract talk of protests. There's a difference between a beep-your-horn protest at a bridge and a protest at a major sporting event which could get Europe-wide coverage (the protest, not the match)

It's not surprising talk has escalated

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But, you see, your post and backtowalsalls post below you precisely encapsulate the problem here. You think it's going to get Europe wide coverage, he/she thinks it could actually affect the Israeli regime. It's a classic case of football supporters thinking they're far more important beyond football than they actually are.

The reality is that any actions at a Nations League B division group game are unlikely to generate much if any interest beyond the two countries involved. And let's face it the Israelis already know we're not their friends and they don't care. So it's not going to have any impact beyond making the people involved feel good about themselves. And a bit of virtue signalling thrown in of course. Which really isn't what's important here.

And as pointed out by another poster, even if it did have some kind of impact on Israeli football - which it won't - that's not going to have any impact on Gaza either way anyway. Israel have a mediocre national team and aren't going to be that arsed in the bigger scheme of things even if they were impacted by any Irish supporters' actions (which - again - they won't be).

So, that's why my position is that we should stick to the football in terms of this fixture, pack the place out (if the Gardai even have the balls to let us host the game), create a hostile atmosphere for the opposition in the stadium on the night and put non-football energy towards supporting groups and organisations that might actually be able to make a positive difference in a wider sense.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

But, you see, your post and backtowalsalls post below you precisely encapsulate the problem here. You think it's going to get Europe wide coverage, he/she thinks it could actually affect the Israeli regime.

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A protest at a Nations League game would certainly get Europe-wide coverage. The Nations League Europe-wide tournament. There's highlights and coverage of the games and snippets of news from sites and papers with stories to write and click-bait to generate. I don't think it would be the top story on news across Europe - but it would be mentioned across Europe.

Now, I don't think Europe-wide coverage would change anything. That said, for you to suggest that would make it a protest virtue signalling is a bizarre leap.

Poland et al did stand up against the Russians, and it hasn't stopped the war. But the various sanctions are having some bit of an impact in Russia. Russia being removed from UEFA/FIFA is part of that. The isolation of South Africa certainly had some impact against the apartheid regime - although how much is of course disputed. Both of those started up with countries standing up for principles and refusing to play Russia/South Africa. It required others to join in of course. But you can only do what you can do.

Bottom line - if taking some sort of action (be it a protest, or refusing to host Israel here) isn't going to do anything, and your suggestion of creating a hostile atmosphere isn't going to do anything, why would you go with the latter?

It appears an FAI EGM could be called, with the sole motion on the agenda being an official boycott of the games - whether or not that *should* be the policy is a matter of opinion, but it seems the wheels are in motion on a formal debate:https://www.thejournal.ie/fai-egm-ir...nt=top-stories