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FORAS were never going to separate from Cork City, if CCIFL had received a licence then FORAS would have withdrawn the application. FORAS' application for a licence was a safety net to ensure Cork City would continue and there would be no break from LoI football in Cork in the event that CCIFL didn't get a licence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Except that licensing specifically states they can't be transferred. 3 different groups can't apply to be Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers each year
The Cork FORAS application would've been completely independent of the Cork City application. How could it not have been?
Licensing can't be transferred, everyone's aware of that, it's particularly important in relation to clubs going bust in the middle of a season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
3 different companies can't trade as Shamrock Rovers or Sligo Rovers either.
What's Cork FORAS?
FORAS and CCIFL were two independent applications, nobody told you any different.
http://www.corkcityfc.net/home/2010/...e-right-hands/Quote:
Originally Posted by CityRebel
You purchased intellectual property and nothing else.
If it is the same club then why was a new club called Cork City FORAS Co-op formed in 2010 while Cork City F.C. supposedly still 'existed'? When was Cork City FORAS Co-op F.C. wound up then? It never happened because 2011 version Cork City is the continuation of Cork City FORAS Co-op under a different name.
Purchasing a name and intellectual property does make it legally the same club. Sure Finn Harps could buy Kildare County's name and play as Kildare County next season and try to claim their history but it is not legally the same club.
I have no problem with Cork fans continuing the traditions of the previous club like AFC Wimbledon do but this pathetic denial that the club went bust and it is still the same club ticks me off big time.
So FORAS were a competitor to the existing Cork CityQuote:
Originally Posted by CityRebel
We purchased all the useful assets of the club and the right to continue/trade as Cork City FC, more than just IP. We had to use the name Cork City FORAS Co-op due to a mix of licensing and legal complications. We changed back as soon as we could. We would've changed back near the start of last season but you're not allowed to change names during the LoI season.Quote:
Originally Posted by total hoofball
There are loads of clubs all over the world that have done this, Fiorentina have been named as an example on this thread.
No, FORAS is the supporters' trust of Cork City. If CCIFL had received a licence then FORAS would have withdrawn the application. FORAS' application for a licence was a safety net to ensure Cork City would continue and there would be no break from LoI football in Cork in the event that CCIFL didn't get a licence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
What licensing and legal complications? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CityRebel
Complications like somebody forming a new club trying to call themselves Bohemian F.C. and trying to enter the LOI while there is already a club Bohemian F.C.?
Your denial is laughable
and yes Fiorentina, ACF Fiorentina to be exact were formed in 2002 following AC Fiorentina's demise months earlier
FORAS couldn't use the name Cork City Football Club initially because FORAS didn't have the right to trade under that name. FORAS weren't trying to form a new club, FORAS would also have withdrawn the application for a licence if CCIFL had received one. If CCIFL had gone bust earlier there's a chance that no name change would've been required. Legally we are the same club now, the former holding company went bust but the club was then taken on by FORAS. If clubs were "new" everytime they changed holding company it would be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by total hoofball
You should email Fiorentina and tell them their website is wrong, they shouldn't have the history on it.
Your obsession with us is laughable. The only country in the world where people obsess over this, although it is only a small minority to be fair.
football clubs are not the same as holding companies.
It's probably the FORAS season that should be expunged from the "Cork City" records, since that is the season it was clearly a different club, and they didn't have the rights to the name.
But, one of the fuirst questions on the license is "Name of Club", as CCIFL were going to put "Cork City" on it, if they applied for a license, FORAS would've automatically been precluded from using the nameQuote:
Originally Posted by CityRebel
The examples used in this were Accrington Stanley and Fiorentina. Lets look closely at them, both previous clubs went bankrupt as we know, but lets look at on Accrington's website under history, it has 1968/69 as the first season and mentions ''The current Accrington Stanley Football Club is formed after a meeting in Bold Street Working Mens Club'' and not 1891 when the original club was formed, so they accept they are different clubs.
In Fiorentina's case, ''AC Fiorentina went into judicially controlled administration in June 2002. This form of bankruptcy (sports companies cannot exactly fail in this way in Italy, but they can suffer a similar procedure) meant that the club was refused a place in Serie B for the 2002–03 season, and as a result effectively ceased to exist.'' source: wikipedia
Then a new club ACF Florentia Viola was formed in August 2002 and was admitted to the league in 4th tier. A year later, this new club ''also bought back the right to use the Fiorentina name and the famous shirt design, and re-incorporated itself as ACF Fiorentina.'' In theory, they are different clubs, to the fans, they are same team, but logistically, they are not. Even a media channel for the club has it as 2002: http://it.violachannel.tv/organigramma.html
Napoli is exactly the same as Fiorentina, they went bankrupt in 2004 and a new club Napoli Soccer was set up and they bought the rights of SSC Napoli in 2006. They 2 are different clubs but have the legal right to claim the history of the previous club.
I think that's taking it a bit far. We shouldn't be giving out asterisks like they're confetti. You have to earn them in this league...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Bar the name change, the exact same thing happened to Derry as to us. The old company were expelled from the league and later liquidated, and the new company was 'helped' into the first division.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The licence was a seperate application but they were connected. The FAI was aware of the link between the 2 and ours being a back up licence. There was no name finalised on the licence application until well into the licencing procedure, when it was becoming fairly clear the other company werent getting a licence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The proof of the link is in the FAI statement when they gave CCIFL a week's licencing extension. In the statement they said FORAS licence would also be delayed a week as the 2 were linked.
It was always a case of FORAS taking over from CCIFL and continuing with Cork City if the worst were to happen. I honestly believe if we didn't have a licence application in, CCIFL under the new ownership would have been fudged a licence, but that's another discussion. We were the FAI's safety net as much as our own.
You seem to be confusing the club names with the companies. The only Cork City FC that existed when Cork City Foras Co-op existed were the underage teams, run, funded and managed by FORAS (the company). It never stopped existing, in fact it was the other way around, Cork City Foras Co-op stopped existing.Quote:
Originally Posted by total hoofball
At the time Cork City Investments FC Limited was in the process of being wound up.
Cork City FORAS co-op was never wound up because it's not a company. You can't wind up a name. The company is FORAS. This company runs Cork City FC, it also ran Cork Cty FORAS Co-op, and Cork City FC (youths) last year. It is one in a line of companies that has owned Cork City FC since 1984. Fair enough if you consider each one to be a new club.
Also, we applied to the FAI to reclaim our history, after buying the intellectual property rights. They agreed.
More that FORAS was a back up to CCIFL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
It was always the case that if CCIFL didnt get a licence they would be wound up immediately. The level of debt that had built up was unsustainable even with a licence but without one the pending winding up orders would have been served.
The idea was always the same, if CCIFL is wound up, because of licencing, FORAS takes over. The ideal was we'd get the intellectual property immediately, and keep the name for the season, but TNB's ****ing about and legalities made it impossible in the end. I think had we been lucky enough to have a situation like Derry, old owners=new owners meaning no legal challenges to using the name and crest then we wouldn't be having the discussion but thems the breaks. On a personal level, legal definitions don't really come in to what makes a club (as opposed to company).
If were to separate them I would say CCFC 1984 continued throughout as a club, but the senior team took a year out (were expelled) and played under a new name. Now they have returned to the fold.
Fair enough, but Derry City were punished for off field issues, by the footballing authorities. As I said earlier there's loads to be interpretedQuote:
Originally Posted by micls
OK, but it was stated above that there may have been 2 applications, therefore the 'intent' was to have 2 seperate applications (and therefore 2 seperate clubs). Luckily for all concerned, with Cork City folding, there was no competition. The intent was to be a seperate application, but as I said above FORAS assumed the Cork franchise when CCIFL were wound up (and obviously didn't submit application). edit; answered a bit more in next post - thanksQuote:
The licence was a seperate application but they were connected. The FAI was aware of the link between the 2 and ours being a back up licence. There was no name finalised on the licence application until well into the licencing procedure, when it was becoming fairly clear the other company werent getting a licence.
A little bit, but again, the fact that you had to apply to the FAI ro reclaim the history, indicates to me that at least some involved considered it a new club.Quote:
You seem to be confusing the club names with the companies. The only Cork City FC that existed when Cork City Foras Co-op existed were the underage teams, run, funded and managed by FORAS (the company). It never stopped existing, in fact it was the other way around, Cork City Foras Co-op stopped existing.
Without being funny I know EXACTLY how that FAI meeting went;Quote:
Also, we applied to the FAI to reclaim our history, after buying the intellectual property rights. They agreed.
FAI; "Do we have to do anything?"
Cork; "Nope, in fact its just easier to let us reclaim the Cork City history"
FAI; "Fire away so!"
Thanks for the explanations though
There would never have been a situation in which there were two Cork City clubs. Two clubs in the city under any names. had we been successful in buying CCIFL from he who shall not be named or if CCIFL had been successful in their application then the FORAS application would have been withdrawn, or even rejected by the FAI. It was a fail safe, and nothing else.
Wasn't there no Accrington Stanley at all for a few years? Harder to claim continuation in that case (although Derry manage to pull it off I suppose)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoss
So were we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Derry were expelled for dual contracts, they were later liquidated and a new company took their place.
We were denied a licence because of debt/tax clearance issues, were later liquidated and a new company took over.
I really don't see any difference in the 2 scenarios bar the name issue. Derry were on their way to liquidation whether the FAI kicked them out/revoked their licence or not. As were we.