Very true, and dragging the discussion into something irrelevant after a murder by someone who is almost certainly not communist
Printable View
Very true, and dragging the discussion into something irrelevant after a murder by someone who is almost certainly not communist
Lenin / Stalin ( and their Communists / other East European Communists ) killed a hell of a lot of People.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Mao and his Chinese Communists killed a hell of a lot of People.
Actually this is from wikipedia which is considered left wing these days,
Estimated number of victims
According to the introduction, the number of people killed by the Communist governments amounts to more than 94 million.[8]: 4 The statistics of victims include deaths through executions, man-made hunger, famine, war, deportations, and forced labor. The breakdown of the number of deaths is given as follows:
- 65 million in the People's Republic of China
- 20 million in the Soviet Union
- 2 million in Cambodia
- 2 million in North Korea
- 1.7 million in Ethiopia
- 1.5 million in Afghanistan
- 1 million in the Eastern Bloc
- 1 million in Vietnam
- 150,000 in Latin America
Good, now show it's relevancy to Charlie Kirk's murder by someone who was almost certainly not a communist
He is certainly of the Left ( probably, brainwashed in college )Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
How far is yer average Lefty from being a Communist when given, the chance / brain washing ?
Youre right, but I don't think they are actually trying to troll.... just thick!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He did 1 semester in extremely conservative college Utah State. A bit of education might do yourself a bit of good tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Yeah, I think you're probably rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Trolling in a practical sense at least, I guess
Ye are behaving just as I expect Leftists to behave, very predictable.
Seanfhear let me ask you a very simple question, now granted it might confuse you but I'll do my best here....Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Are you a Nazi? Im not calling you one, Im simply asking if you think of yourself as one?
Reason I ask is that you've made it very clear you a very on the right politically and since you seem to believe that everyone on the left is a communist it must stand to reason that everyone on the right is a nazi ?
I would say that I am Right on most things, especially politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Ok I'll try again....since you think everyone on the left is a communist do u think everyone on the right is a nazi?Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
I am just right of centre from a few years ago. I was probably a bit left on some stuff until I got older and wiser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Remember the saying, if you are not a bit of a Lefty when you are young then maybe you don't have a heart !
And, if you are not a bit right-y when you get older, then you haven't a developing brain !
And still can't answer a very simple question as expected.
this bit is the answer ; I am just right of centre from a few years ago. I was probably a bit left on some stuff until I got older and wiser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Thats not the question I asked though is it?
The extreme left are extremely dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
The extreme right are extremely dangerous.
The horse-shoe theory of politics says that they are actually not that different to one another, and certainly both are extremely dangerous.
I am in no way an extremist. I now hold moderate political policies that would have been centrist ( maybe very slightly right of centre ) only a very small number of years ago.
So by that logic, everyone you debate with on here is an extremist? You call everyone lefty communists. Clearly a communist is an extremist. No one has called you a Right wing Nazi.... do you see the difference?
I apologise to any that are not extreme Lefty / Communists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Do you live over in the States too?
Mother of God, this is proof why its pointless trying to engage
~ No ~Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Anyone who thinks that college/university = left wing indoctrination hasnt been to university. For every socialist workers party union member there is a christian union member which by my experience of multiple universities you have to be a certain kind of christian to be accepted as a member. Lecturers vary by way of their own personal leanings. Students by nature are activists but not exclusively on leftist issues, demonstrations often have counter demonstrations unless there is common self interest ie proposed increased tuition fees. Any half decent Students Union is mandated by democratic processes though in close plebicites there will be a bunch of people with noses out of joint but thats democracy, majority rules and majorities change. Clubs and Societies rules themselves as long as they are not breaking laws can do and say what they like within reason, and it takes some pretty severe stuff for legal action to be initiated. There may be a perception that students lean to extremes at universities but they are the vocal few with the vast majority seeing an SU as a cheap boozer.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
I lean left when it comes to something like universal healthcare and education because it tends to be cheaper in the long run than forcing people in to poverty traps and drive up crime and disorder. I lean right when it comes to crime and disorder as I want to see proper deterrents to idiots being idiots, the kind that have no excuse like being raised with privilage and wipe a family out drink driving, sexual predators I think are too softly punished, and any crime against the elderly angers me to the point of the extreme - I have to recognise that there is a need for being (relatively) proportionate, animal cruelty Id think that person deserves a dose of their one medicine but not exactly civilised to do so.
More guns=more gun violence, is that a lefty opinion or a statement of common sense, like more cars on the road means there's more likely to be car crashes no matter how well people are trained and are careful, never mind the idiots on top.
Sadly my choice of political votes are given to the least worse option in some elections, I know who I dont want in power a lot more than knowing who I want to elect. It wont be the extremes of the poitical spectrum for sure. We got close in Ireland to getting away from the if you are not with me you are against me, not having legacy voting, putting civil war politics behind us. But we are watching it thrive elsehwere and it is driving that trend back in to Irish politics again albeit in different ways and on different topics.
Im sure its straight forward to agree that American politics is partcularly poisoned, its almost irrelevant why or caused by whom. With very little bipartison agreement that country is weaker for it. What I see is blatant bluffing of the current amninistration on many issues, moving the goalposts and nobody calling it out. Far too much harping back to previous admins with a blame game. I see the opposition party as weak, paralysed, unable to get their policy messages across in a way that resonates as beneficial to the electorate. The politics of of populism reigns and I fear it gaining more traction in Europe. Immigration is an issue, its being blamed for a whole lot of other issues which is spurious at best eg a housing crisis that is rooted in social housing stock being sold off from the 90s on rent to purchase schemes. Issues being hijacked to reinforce various agendas and conspiracies like abort to import...
Ok I have gone off on a meandering stream of thought, I think someone should call it the weave. So to tie it all together, for people to use political violence to justify political violence is nuts, selective classing of who has been the victims of political violence in the US is nuts. Alienatng international military allies is nuts. Undermining media reporting is nuts. Giving naickname is funny for the wrong reasons, Building a ballroom that is bigger than whole white house is ..... BS, thinking stealth fighters can just disappear in front of you is hilarious, cleaning the inside of people with bleach to treat a virus is super high IQ stuff. Whatever about the politics some of the main people in the 45/47th administration will go down as thick as pig sh1te, even if billions have been made by them in the process. There isnt a whole lot to say on the 46th admin, its was pretty mundane and average. I probably shouldnt say there should be an upper age limit for US president but if their is a lower age limit then maybe.
In the spirit of yes or no answers only then, here's a few if you'd like to clarify Sean and Mark, be it Ireland or the USA. Its probably a bit unfair to put anyone on the spot but in the absence of discussion with a rationale sure why not. Elaborate too.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Do you have an issue with or dislike political or cultural liberalism?
Do you dislike marxism/communism (why would be interesting albeit not a yes or no question)?
Have you been a mamber of or would join a trade union?
Would you see the problems facing Irish society rooted in issues such as immigration?
Do you think university education should be focused, rather than broad and allowing for critical thinking?
Do you think that Irish culture is at risk of being diluted or destroyed?
Do you see liberalism as eroding eg family values?
Do you feel that women should fulfill the roles of raising a family, being predominantly stay at home mothers?
Do you consider there to be a class system in Ireland and if so is it a bad thing? eg an educated elite
Do you see Irish people in any way superior to other communities in Ireland, say immigrants.
Do you think that the social safety net of the state should be removed?
Is a nations military important and by extension should all people be in some way trained or integrated in to national military.
Do you find military pomp and ceremony appealing?
Would you find a charismatic political leader appealing even if or especially if they dont play by the rules? Is a strong leader as or more important than a strong government?
Do you think the end justifies the means in terms of politics and providing for a people?
Most importantly!!!
Would you vote for Conor McGregor for president if he was nominated?......
I certainly wouldn't vote for McGregor, for one thing he is an annoying ******. I think Maria Steen should be on the ballot paper to give Irish People a real choice and not just establishment lackeys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I was a member of a trade union ~ A corrupt ( very corrupt ) trade union in the construction industry.
I am an Irish Republican / Irish Nationalist. Many of my extended family were in the IRA all the way back to the Irish War of partial independence. And, in the IRA of the recent troubles and on to some of the IRA's that split from PIRA.
The Irish People have the right to take up arms, if and when they choose to do so, as they always have had that right.
I dislike Communists because they kill so many People, and I dislike the extreme right for the same reason.
I don't think that students in, school / university, should know the politics of the their teachers, or anything about their teachers sexual preferences, hardly too much to ask !
Obviously the culture of a Country can be affected by mass immigration ~ See Ireland with regard to the plantations in history which was mass immigration ( obviously )
A Woman should be able to afford to stay at home and raise a family if she chooses to do so, rather than be forced out to work, if / when, she does Not want to do so ! ( hardly a controversial opinion )
I have no interest in military pomp and ceremony.
I would liked to have seen how Michael Collins would have got on as an Irish Leader if he had lived ( rather foolish not to keep driving through that ambush when the way was clear to do so )
"Nothing can alter the truth of it. Ireland belongs to the Irish.” - Pádraig Pearse. An Eagraíocht na An Túath na Éire. Éire do an Éireannaigh.
How quickly we have forgotten Irish history.
These are really good questions, Nesta, and in the interests of balance, I’ll throw in my answers.
Liberalism: I’ve no issue with it and for the most part welcome it, but now that I’m in my early fifties I recognise that the ‘certainties’ of my upbringing are being challenged and some of those challenges do make me uncomfortable. I hope that my responses in those situations are thoughtful rather than reactive.
Marxism/Communism: I dislike all political extremes. M/C was to make all people equal and it did: equal in misery, economic penury and subjugation (bar the ruling elite who ba5tardised the concept). I can’t help but laugh at so-called IRA supporting Irish nationalists who forget, or never knew, how solidly M/C underpinned strands of the IRA’s existence.
Trade Union: I’m in the TUI. I’d rather IFUT, but it’s too weak in our place.
Irish society issues: immigration is an issue only inasmuch as we haven’t the infrastructure to cater for new numbers. (For the record, I wasn’t born here, so technically I’m an immigrant.) If it wasn’t for the Famine and a century of emigration the island would today have a population of 20,000,000 – assuming normal European growth rates. We have an inert political system where politicians are required to maintain the status quo rather than be innovators. It makes us slow to recognise problems, slow to react and slow to enact. The biggest social issues are that (1) we're fundamentally conservative and change-resistant as a society and (2) we accept corruption – not just bribery and brown envelopes (against the rule corruption) but the lower level stuff like ‘looking after’ a mate with 'according to rule' corruption. It’s corrosive and antithetical to a functioning society.
University education: why can’t it be both broad and allow for critical thinking? My degrees are in arts/applied arts and covered history, language, politics, philosophy, culture and aesthetics and on and on. I’ve just finished writing a (very short) libretto based on a 1399 French text about chivalry where critical thinking suggested masculinity as an analogue term for a modern audience. Not something I ever though I’d be doing, but I was given the tools for breadth and depth that allowed me take it on.
Irish culture: what is Irish culture? One man’s dilution is another’s enrichment. We laud our sporting culture: GAA, Ronnie in Helsinki, Sonia O’Sullivan and now her daughter, Sophie – is that culture diluted or enriched with Rhasidat Adeleke and Chiedozie Ogbene? There are new voices in literature and the arts. I was at an event on Friday night compered by Leon Diop – a fluent Irish-speaker who put 90% of the room to shame with his easy fluency. Some years ago, a former neighbour told me she called out to her kids on the street: ‘taragaí anseo, ta an dinnéir réidh’. An oul’ bo!!ox snarled at her: ‘them kids is a menace and yous lot had better learn English if yizzer gonna stay in this country’. Too many people who bleat about culture haven’t a clue about Irish contributions to art, literature, music, sport but some romanticised notion about an undefined Irishness as culture.
Liberalism eroding family values: I think it is redefining what we understand by family values. For some, it’s same sex marriage, same sex adoptive parents, divorce and bad, bad, bad. But for me, family values are being loved and cared for in a unit that shields you from harm and gives you space to grow as a person. Whoever achieves that, or is a product of it, contributes more to society than eroding it.
Women raising a family: I think it’s personal choice. Women are disadvantaged on retirement because maternity leave eats into their pension entitlements, and mortgages mean that both parents have to work outside the home in many cases, so the idea of choice is somewhat moot. But this is just one frame of a more invidious debate about the role and value of women in society, and their autonomy – this from Arwa Mahdawi should terrify anybody who hasn't yet seen the end goal of a particular ideology.
Class system and educated elite: people forget that the state was founded by an educated elite – the Brits shot the revolutionaries in 1916 and 1919-21, and we took care of the rest during the Civil War. The first Free State governments had minsters who spoke French among themselves in private, barristers, an Imagist poet – they were the product of a Catholic middle class education. There’s always been an elite social class: in small town Ireland it’s the family with the pub, undertakers and farm supply business under one roof, or the doctors and solicitors, or the kids back for the holidays from boarding school. We don’t speak about it, but it’s there. It’s not as rigid as the UK, though, where it’s preordained from birth: we have intergenerational class mobility that, probably, kicked off with Donough O’Malley and free secondary education.
Irish people superior to other communities: why should we be? What have we got that other communities don’t? Feeling superior means standing aloof when real superiority – practical, tangible, not emotional – comes from harnessing the best of what everybody has to offer.
Remove the social safety net of the state: absolutely not. If anything, we need to reassess how effective it is and ensure more people can avail of it when they need it. But I dislike how it has helped create intergenerational unemployment and low educational attainment, and that needs to be addressed.
Nation’s military: the state has a military, not the nation. It’s important as one of the elements of self-determination and sovereignty and should be at an appropriate level of deterrent and to act as an aid to the civil authority. I’m not in favour of national service, but I think a limited number of one-year contracts could be offered annually to school leavers or graduates, who would commit to being in a national reserve for a period afterward. I’d prefer to see a voluntary national service scheme for limited numbers in areas like the civil defence.
Military pomp and ceremony appealing: Not since I watched Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will 30 years ago.
Charismatic political leader not playing by the rules? Strong leader or strong government: more than a strong government, a strong separation of powers and SIPO with the autonomy and bite to ensure a charismatic leader is kept in check by rules.
The end justifies the means: I’m more deontological than teleological in my ethics, and increasingly situational (as the values I learned in childhood and early adulthood are challenged). I’d say sometimes – depending on the situation delivering the most good, with the least harm.
Would you vote for Conor McGregor for president if he was nominated?
I wouldn’t give that sexual predator the steam of my pi55.
I'll get around to my own answers in due course, I doubt they will be as well delivered as yerself EG.
I dont want to pull apart someones response but seanfhear, there are a number of contraditions in your reply. Im not sure if you have evaded some of the questions as you may feel they could be too revealing though I believe people should have conviction in their opinions if they can provide something of a rationale. A bit like EG's point, at what stage to you put 'Irish culture' on the clock? First settlers circa 10000 years ago, from Europe and Britain, the Norse, Vikings from which we have names and placenames still, the various incursions from what we call Britain today, anyone who traded and migrated, with a merging of language, customs and hence culture. You mention the plantations, fortifications shaped landscapes, we are on a football forum influenced by 'garrison games', the gaelic revival may not have happened as we know it without attempts to anglify the Irish, maybe no codifying gaelic games. Would we have some of the worlds greatest English literature penned by the Irish, and so on. When does the evolution stop, why should it stop, how about Ukrainians taking gaelic games back to Ukraine one day, or the addition that other world cultures weave in to the tapestry of the uniqueness of Irish culture. We dont have to forget cultural to allow it grow and evolve over the next thousand years.
As has also been mentioned, to be an Irish Republican is to be on a pretty extreme left, especially if casting votes for Sein Fein in recent eras. Pearse was communist, he spoke about state ownership and equity in the distribution of wealth. Connolly and others were advocates of socialism with affiliation to Soviet Russia, Jim Larkin's statue stands in O'Connell St, the proclaimation is a socialist document - all left wing. Communism is a system, it doesnt kill, people kill and they may be communist. Democratic systems facilitate people being killed too - Israel is a democratic country that is currently engaged in genocide. I think that people misunderstand the terminology involved and use sweeping statements. Take the human out of the system and communism trumps capitalism, reality is a different story. As Ive said previously if on the right pointing at the left and on the left pointing at the right then you are part of the problem
The right to bear arms against a foreign power, well i see your point, the right to bear arms today against the Irish state is treason. There may be some leeway on N.Ireland but I disagree with the gun in politics certainly in modern times in an Irish independent state that will unify eventually through democratic means (whatever happens after well we will see....).
I dont know of teachers/lecturers that walk in to a classroom declaring their sexuality or politics. If its relevant it may be part of a discussion but its not a dictate to students to agree or else - as long as students meet the learning objectives of s subject....if its math or engineering??
I obviously asked about trade unionism as its a leftist ideology, its pragmatic to be a member for all the benefits irrespective of the flaws. But of course if the organisation is dysfunctional is not good but we shouldnt throw the baby out with the bath water. I have a bit of knowledge of UCAT years ago and I didnt think much of them, I have been a member of UNISON in the UK and an associate member of the BMA which was rubbish and I dont think there are associate members now. I was VP of my SU when at University in London many years ago and that has stood to me more that the damn 4 years undergrad - what an experience that was and I saw the good and bad and am still willing to call out BS work practices and abuses of any NHS grunt.
Anyway, in general I hope Mark and other give things a go, doesnt have to be long, It helps my learning, insight, understanding, etc. may foster constructive discussion as EG has shown. It might even help break down frustration with the intransigence of posts. I hated traditional Irish parenting olden ways like 'Why? Cause I said so', or 'you are too young to have an opinion', 'did you contradict me?...yer fooked! This seems to be the growing state of discussion in recent times!!
Many Irish Nationalists / Irish Republicans, were not / are not, socialists / communists.
And there is no certainty that, Irish Nationalists / Irish Republicans, from the past would be fellow travellers with todays, socialists / communists.
They would almost certainly be, far too conservative / too religious, to want to have anything to do with today's, socialists / communists.
The ideology of the early 20century is the same today. You can of course say that many were not socialist but many were. You quoted Pearse and he was. The entire 1916 proclaimation is a scoialist document. You mentioned the IRA, the Old IRA in particular was Marxist so prior to the 1969 split anybody who was a mamber of the IRA were signed up to forming a democratic socialist (Marxist) country. I dont want to know who you have voted for in various elections but if it was ever for Sein Fein, they are explicit in the manefesto about their goals, wealth redistribution being key. The Irish Workers Party was formed out of Irish Republicanism. Pearse was an internationalist also, or pro immigrant by current terminology.
So what do you see as an end goal for Iirsh Republicanism, past or present if it isnt a 32 county socialist republic? How would it work in terms of the party that is on point on the isssue of unification is rooted in marxist/communist ideology. Should we remove Larkin's statue because he was communist, forget about the lockout that helped fuel the republicanism, swelling the ranks of the IRB who were affiliated to other international socialist groups. I think it was Lenin that said that the Irish 'pulled the triger' of rebellion too early in 1916, that by 1917/18 the chances or success would have been greater due to the possibility of support from Russia and abroad. I also vaguely recall that the fledgling Irish state loaned money to post revolution Russia and that Irish government delegations atteneded COMINTERN and there were attempts to forge a treaty between the two countries. Hardly the actions of halfhearted commies!
This is all relevant to understnding ideology, our own especially and as a democratic socialist country, we are by nature of our politics of past and present left wing. Not as extreme as many might have hoped for at the foundation of the state or what the Sein Fein/PBP opposition would like if elected to government. Socialism has been a positive and being a welfare state remains so. Nothings perfect but the US would be a better place for a large number of people if they had universal healthcare. Is that socialism or having a social conscience?
Sinn Féin ( since say 1970 ) and the IRA ( PIRA ) associated with them, were comprehensively defeated by the British through, Agents / Informers / Spies / Touts, and the dirty work of Loyalist Terrorists ~ And the Work of the British Intelligence Agencies / British Governments.
You can be absolutely sure that when the PIRA were riddled with, Agents / Informers / Spies / Touts, then Sinn Féin are as well ! Including many of them working for the Irish State.
Which explains, how you end up with the Sinn Féin party that there is today !
PIRA so riddled that they were effective in their bombing and terror campaigns up to the mid/latter 1990s. That Sein Fein were so riddled that they managed to negotiate (with others) th GFA, release of prisoners, that consent was a key pillar among other consessions that the British made.
So you think that agents of the Irish State are controlling Sein Fein? Well I suppose they are if you class Irish citizens that are members of the party and via their Ard fheis vote on policy as per their party constitution. But if they are 'infiltrated' they would be no electoral threat to the old order, so there would have been no need for two opposing sides of civil war politics suck it up to form a coalition to keep Sein Fein in opposition.
Sein Fein has been a 'socialist' party since their reemergence in to 1950s Irish politics, same now as they were then, probably more to the extreme even than from their original foundation pre independence. If you have voted SF you have voted for as extreme left wing as there is available in Irish politics bar maybe old Giller.
Sein Fein of the 50s and today is the same difference. At its beginning Griffith was a stated socialist with Connolly et al close associates.
Can you point to me one single objective that Sinn Féin ( and the PIRA ) had prior to 1997 that they have achieved ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
They have achieved No objective that they had before 1997. The British were clever enough to dress up the defeat of PIRA as a deal.They did this to stop other IRA's coming in to being. And with some minor exceptions the British have been very successful with that.
Sinn Féin and their IRA ( PIRA ) were defeated by the British. Proof of this is that, Sinn Féin / PIRA, have not achieved one single objective they had before 1997.
It's time for some home-truths on this. Because this is how we ended up with the Sinn Féin party that we have today !
I have no love for Sein Fein/ IRA. How the GFA came about or SF objectives, successes or failures, Im indifferent about in the context of this thread, if at all tbh. A peace process has stuck so great, there is a pathway to unification and one day we will see if the democratic processes work or it pokes a beast.
But back on point, I dont know whether there is some astute deflection going on, selective engageent or just a pick a point and go.
You have an issue with communism, ie pretty far left, you quoted Pearse as a republican, he had communist leanings, wrote about them and associated with likeminded people. Is this an issue for you?
You should also note that Pearse and other Lefties of his time, had no knowledge at that time of how many People, Communists were going to kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
God be with the days when the village idiots of the world were kept in their villages. The internet has a lot to answer for!
Is this a self confession from you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Anyway, I assume a moderator would have a word with this poster for the personal attacks !
Obviously, this poster resorts to personal attacks when he has lost the arguments !
Hopefully he just keeps it to personal attacks on the internet !
Doesnt that apply to all politcal ideologies? How many people have been killed by capitalism, wars fought in the name of democracy, democratically elected leftist governments collapsed by the 'leaders of the free world', the same propping up regimes guilty of mass murder, the Pinochets of the world. The afore mentioned elected Israeli government's current conduct. If we go further back in history.....Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
You might call this whatboutery, Id call it perspective, balance. My uncle would say the broader the statement the narowwer the mind - seeping statements eg the left are evil (communists/ socialists), as you hear said in US politics, or all Republicans are fascist which I dont agree with either as I feel that MAGA is different from regular GOP, their issue being that they are saying too little to challange over reach by the MAGA admin. For a party that advocates small government.
Did Pearse know people would be killed by taking up arms in the centre of Dublin, of course he did, did he know how many? No, did he care, for the cause probably not. Sounds like the mindset of a communist by your reckoning. We should probably diffrenciate between communism and stalinism too.
Again to get back on thread though, do you see the left in US politics as communist?
I was just making a general point, cant be helped if you assume I was talking about anyone specificallyQuote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Obviously, I though you were self - confessing !Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Some are certainly wanna-be Communists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
In response to him saying on TV that all homeless should just be killed, Fox news host Brian Kilmeade issued an apology
https://x.com/kilmeade/status/1967219726456959138
The fact that a guy can literally call for an extermination of hundreds of thousands of people on live tv and just get to apologize and move on is a sign of where the US is at today. This sort of rhetoric has been made ok by the Trump administration. Its very hard to see right now how things can ever be rolled back to "normal" over here. Its a scary time!