Recent post on here said Dewsbury-Hall is eligible.
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Recent post on here said Dewsbury-Hall is eligible.
He’d be a massive improvement on what we have, but would he even consider declaring for a country languishing in the wilderness who can’t even attract a half decent manager?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I don’t think he would at all, no, but hopefully he’ll be approached formally by the new guy - if he hasn’t already had prior approaches.
Well thus far, even when we had managers, it is obviously a no, he did not. There is no way it hasn't been offered to him IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Looking at the England squad, and particularly the players in the same boat as him who aren't making their squads, he has a steep hill ahead of him there and age beginning to go against him, just about to. What would make it slightly more palatable our side is he has zero underage for them, nothing.
You are correct though, none of this happens without a manager and one looking like getting us going in the right direction at that.
Here we go once again -Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
according to stu and the other number crunchers - Bazunu is a sh*te goalkeeper.
A goalkeeper of a team that is fourth in the Championship despite a brutal start and has a poorly organised and poorly disciplined defence - a team where the approach of the manager is 'we will score more goals that youse will' - and despite that - the team is still doing well.
Is Bazunu the finished article - far from it - but he is a damned good goalkeeper. Goalkeepers come into their prime at around 30 years of age. There are 4/5 goalkeepers in the PL aged under 30 - about 7/8 under 30 in the Championship. If I am not mistaken - in the top two divisions there is one goalkeeper younger than Bazunu - Trafford at Burnley.
Southampton are in the play-off spots because of what they score, not what they concede - it is a recipe for disaster in the PL. Put any PL goalkeeper into a Southampton team that plays like Russell Martin's team does and they will ship goals.
Bazunu had a poor game against Ipswich - but so did pretty much the entire Southampton team. Prior to the recent period Southampton went on a significant streak of not losing - and Bazunu played a big part in that. But Southampton have a soft underbelly that causes them to ship a lot of goals, almost exclusively down to poor defending.
One of the articles linked above says that Bazunu has let in 11 goals more than 'would be anticipated given the quality of the attempts'. I dare anyone to find 11 goals out of the 51 Southampton have conceded this season that were Bazunu's fault. The nature of the goalkeepers job is that they will fail once, twice, three times in many games - it is a position in football where you are set up to fail - and very often the goalkeeper carries the consequences for the mistakes of the ten players in front of them.
Looking at stats without looking at the overall picture - and recognising everything that occurs in the process of a game is a mistaken approach.
Years ago Billy Beane and Paul DePodesta attempted to use sabermetrics in baseball - it worked for a season or two (and was primarily used to drive down wage costs in baseball) - but the Oakland A's have been and continue to be one of the poorest teams in baseball. Beane was forced over the years to significantly modify his approach (as did DePodesta and Riccairdi) because just analysing statistics does not work - they can play a role, but they often give misleading information and to ignore the myriad of other factors at play in a football (or baseball) game is a fool's errand.
Now - again - Bazunu is just 22 years old (and almost four years younger than Kelleher) - he was unfortunate that Southampton imploded just when he joined them - he will grow and develop and be a better goalkeeper.
I have said this before - with the exception of Shay Given, both Kelleher and Bazunu are two of the best goalkeepers ever to play for Ireland and we are very lucky to have them. It will be a long time before the Irish team is so richly resourced at the position.
Trafford and Verbruggen are the only keepers in the Premier League younger than Bazunu. Trafford has been dropped for Muric. I'd say our Gavin has ten or fifteen years left at the top. He'll be fine.
1. Bazunu is a sh*ite goalkeeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
I cannot find where this was said.
2. He is a damned good goalkeeper?
He is not a damned good goalkeeper until he proves himself a damned good goalkeeper.
3. Southampton or any other club will persevere until he peaks at 30?
Zero chance.
4. Southampton are in the play-off spots because of what they score, not what they concede?
Score more goals than you concede to win games. No?
5. The goalkeeper carries the consequences for the mistakes of the ten players in front of them?
He/she doesn't. Goalkeepers are expected to make saveable saves, rule the area, organise etc. They make mistakes too and should be accountable.
6. He will grow and develop and be a better goalkeeper? I hope so and admire your staunch optimism for him. But an experience and proven goalkeeper will be a priority for Southampton next season whether in the EPL or Championship. His admirers claimed his EPL season would serve him well in the Championship. It hasn't. Being young is not enough.
That's a pathetic strawman argument and you know it. All anyone argues here is that he's overrated by people like yourself, who attack anyone who dares question that Bazunu is beyond amazing - and we all know he's good - or that there might be another keeper even better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
And always with this crap. Bazunu is amazing and flawless and anyone arguing that he's less than perfect is a stupid doo-doo head, but he's also just a baby learning his trade and will be good in the future. You think anyone here isn't aware that Bazunu is young? That a young keeper will learn and improve? You think anyone here hasn't read that a thousand times already?Quote:
Now - again - Bazunu is just 22 years old (and almost four years younger than Kelleher) - he was unfortunate that Southampton imploded just when he joined them - he will grow and develop and be a better goalkeeper.
I'm tired of Bazunu's cheerleaders throwing a fit at anyone who dares not wield the pom-pom. I don't see anyone throwing a hissy fit when someone says Ferguson's form has dipped. He's only a baby, he'll score more goals in the future. It's like a cult with you people.
Yep, the strawman stuff gets tiring alright. Bazunu is, at 22, almost four years younger than Kelleher - I said that in my own post. It'd only be relevant if people were writing Bazunu off, which no-one is doing. But it's not a basis on which to pick the team for the Hungary game. Do we start Bazunu because he'd save that shot in 3/4 years' time?
The "He's a ****e keeper" is a lazy argument too. Right now he's a poor Championship keeper (in my view, obviously). Is that ****e? It's better than 99.9% of keepers. And it's quantifiable at least, in a way that "He's ****e" isn't. He's clearly not, as JRG argues, a solid Premiership-level keeper who's better than anyone we've ever produced bar Given and (bizarrely) Farquharson.
I saw on the Southampton forum their fans talking about Leicester fans' views of him. There's a general Championship thread on the Leicester forum - they were watching Ipswich v Southampton closely, as it had obvious relevance to Leicester. The comments are interesting, from fans with no more skin in the game than a general annoyance that their main promotion rivals had turned around a deficit to win -
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Should be saving that Bazunu really
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Bazunu is just horrendous
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Really poor defending by Southampton and keeper never looks like saving anything
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Bazunu is utterly awful isn't he
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Southampton's GK looks really poor, very Ward-esque
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Bazunu is a poor man’s Ward
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Bazunu is a worse shot stopper than Danny Ward, printing money bet o. 2.5 goals
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Wow Bazunu just keeps nothing out
(Danny Ward was the Leicester keeper last year; had a PSxG of -5.5 when he was dropped last March and replaced by Iversen, who wasn't much better so they bought 23-year-old Mads Hermansen from Brondby, who's doing quite well)Quote:
An absolutely useless goalkeeping performance has won the game for Ipswich there
I think there's no harm in being a bit concerned by Bazunu's lack of progress over the past two seasons. And no point in closing eyes and and pretending that it's all the defence's fault really.
I have never seen more strawman arguments and more accusations of strawman arguments in one thread.
And here I am, making a construable strawman argument and throwing more accusations at people about strawmen.
Tiresome.
Can I direct you towards the Stephen Kenny thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Damn Kennyite... :p
I'd probably be considered one of those cheerleaders though I'd say that I was more pushing back on what I thought was unfair or selective criticism going back several months, or even further. I think some of his performances for us under Kenny were really good and I don't think he got enough credit for them. I've been concerned by his recent form though, but I think he's good enough to pull through this and improve. Right now I think O'Leary is playing better.
Is the Burning Man made of Straw ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
So let's take a step back on this one -Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
As Stuttgart88 also said - my responses on this thread started as a push back against all the negativity being posted about Gavin Bazunu (and in particular the attempt to use stats to justify the negativity).
Gavin Bazunu is a very talented goalkeeper - he joined Man City at 16 years of age - at 18 he went out on loan to Rochdale (and was largely responsible for BBM getting hired by Man City as head of their EDS) - at 19 he spent a season at Portsmouth - and at 20 he took the decision and risk to leave Man City to get first team football at a high level. Kelleher, who I also greatly admire, joined Liverpool at 16, never went on loan and, after nine years, up until this season only played in the lower double digits of games for Liverpool (a decision that seems to be working out well for him). I think Bazunu deserves a lot of credit for being brave enough to make certain decisions, even if those decisions have not panned out.
Now - when Bazunu joined Southampton I thought it was a great move for him - I felt Hasenhüttl was a good manager and Southampton were a solid team. Then they turned out to be a dumpsterfire - and it was bound to have an impact on Bazunu's confidence and his development.
This season Southampton started by shipping a stack-full of goals - 4 against Norwich, 5 against Sunderland, 4 against Leicester - scoring 3 and conceding 12 in a four game losing streak - and the comments on here were all about how bad Bazunu was. I - and others - pointed out that the problem was the Southampton defence - not Bazunu - a goalkeeper is only ever as good as the ten players in front of him. Russell Martin defended Bazunu - saying if he was looking for a keeper Bazunu would be the one he would sign and that the problems with Southampton were not the goalie but the people in front of him.
Martin appeared to sort out the defence - and Southampton went on a 22 game undefeated run - climbed from 15th to 2nd - and there was barely a murmur on this thread for weeks while Bazunu was playing exceptionally well (with a better defence in front of him) and Bazunu was making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. Then the wheels came off the Southampton bandwagon - starting with the 5-3 win against Huddersfield - they lost 3 of the next 4 and then lose a game against Ipswich that they should have won. All of the old defensive issues came back to haunt the team.
And what happens - Southampton lose an important game, Bazunu has a poor game - and we now get a barrage of criticism surfacing again against Bazunu with links to stats claiming he is the worst goalie in the Championship.
So 3 goals conceded - Southampton lose the ball at midfield, Ipswich break, the Southampton defence is a shambles and Davis has an eternity to set himself up, pick his spot and rifle the ball into the top left corner without a Southampton player near him. Ipswich almost score again when they wallop the post after 2 Southampton defenders fail to get in a challenge. Ipswich's second goal demonstrated all the problems with Southampton's defence, nobody marking strikers, nobody making an effort to get back into position and when Broadhead gets the ball in the box he has all the time in the world to turn and strike it into the corner without any of the 3 defenders making an effort to get in a block. With five minutes to go Bree gets caught miles out of position and gets sent off for pulling down the striker - and for the last goal Ipswich exploit an acre of space where Bree should have been to get to the byline, cross the ball into the box to an unmarked player. He has four Southampton players near him (including Smallbone) has the time to miskick the ball, fall over, scramble back up and strike the ball without any Southampton defender making an effort to stop him. I think Bazunu was unsighted for the shot because there was a gaggle of players between him and the strike of the ball.
The three Ipswich goals were all the fault of poor defending - that is not to say that Bazunu shouldn't have done better. I felt that it would have been reasonable to expect him to save at least one of those three and I would pick the second one where, imo, he was a little slow at getting down to the ball (the first goal the shot was just too powerful and I do think he was unsighted for the last one) - saving the second goal would probably have won Southampton the game, and Bazunu should be held responsible for probably costing Southampton the win.
I will also say that I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of the Leicester forum - they haven't been watching the Southampton defence all season and only see Bazunu not being able to reach multiple shots.
I don't care what the stats say - they are of limited use. Bazunu has been very good in most of Southampton's games this season. There have been 2/3 games (including Monday) where you could possibly argue that he might be responsible for a bad result - and a couple of more where mistakes didn't cost the team a result. But overall he has largely been the victim of poor defending than poor play on his part.
Now - I would agree that Bazunu has not progressed this season as much as should be expected. But I do think you need to look at the context. He knows he has poor defenders in front of him - he knows they don't block down shots from strikers - he knows they leave gaps all over the place - and I think it is making him a bit hesitant. That is not good because it can become a habit and it would mean that he could end up constantly being a finger-tip away from making a great save for the rest of his career. I don't think that will happen - it is know that he works very hard, he listens to his coaching etc. That said - I don't rate the Southampton goalkeeping coach Dean Thornton - he was never a professional keeper (and of all the coaching positions I think that is imported for goalkeeping).
I would prefer that Southampton not get promoted this season - if they do they are likely to come straight back down and if Bazunu (or someone else because many on here think that Bazunu will be dumped) is in goals they will be massacred. Southampton's defence will be torn to shreds in the PL - just like it was last season - and I could easily see them shipping more than the 73 goals they let in last season - and that is irrespective of who is in goals for them. I think another season in the Championship would help Bazunu - as would a better defence. Ending up playing in the PL next season or getting benched and seeing his replacement letting in 2/3 goals a game - could destroy his confidence. It will also be interesting to see what happens Trafford at Burnley - because there is major similarities in both cases.
Last point - Bazunu and the Irish team. I will state again - Ireland are very lucky to have two goalkeepers of the calibre of Bazunu and Kelleher in the squad. stu makes a joke about me mentioning Tommy Farquharson - but he was an outstanding goalkeeper for a very good Cardiff team that challenged for the league title in the 1920s.
47 goalkeepers have played for the Irish team since independence
22 of them have played in the top division of English football (and a handful including Bonner in Scotland) - out of this 22 goalies 6 played less than 10 games over their careers - these are the remaining 16
Tommy Farquharson 243 games for Cardiff in the 1920s
Tommy Breen 65 games for Man U in the 1930s
Jimmy O'Neill 124 games for Everton in the 1950s
Pat Dunne 45 games for Man Utd in the mid 1960s
Paddy Roche 46 games for Man Utd in the 1970s
Ron Healy 30 games for Man City in the 1970s
And then onto the last 40 years
Keith Branaghan 68 games for Bolton in the 1990s
Rob Elliot 52 games for Newcastle over 8 years
Shay Given 451 games
Alan Kelly Jr 66 games for Sheff Utd over 3 years
Paddy Kenny 67 games for Sheff U and QPR over 2 years
Dean Kiely 191 games for Charlton, Portsmouth and WBA over 10 years
Seamus McDonagh - 100 games (approx) for Bolton and Everton over 3 years
Darren Randolph 34 games for West Ham and others over a 20 year career
Kieran Westwood 19 games for Sunderland over 2 years
Gavin Bazunu 32 games so far
Caoimhin Kelleher 14 games so far (and yes I know he has played in European and cup games)
Mark Travers 15 games so far
Now - the 1970s back were a completely different era - and while goalkeeping has changed significantly in the last 40 odd years - I would argue that apart from Shay Given (and possible Dean Kiely) none of the other goalkeepers would get into a PL team today - because there is too much competition from foreign players. Twice Travers has been promoted and then dumped by Bournemouth (and treated badly in my opinion) - Kelleher has the potential to get a move to another PL team and crank out a big number of appearances. Bazunu may never play in the PL again - but, given his age, could well develop into a top PL goalkeeper.
So my argument is that we currently have with Bazunu, Kelleher (and Travers) - three of the best goalkeepers ever to play in an Irish team - and we should look on that with a sense of confidence - rather than constant criticism. None of these three goalkeepers have ever let an Irish team down (nor have many of the others listed above - although I really did hate to see Paddy Roche pull on an Irish jersey - he was that bad) - and all of them have the potential to have to have long and very successful careers.
So I would argue that there should be far less kicking of the goalies we have (mostly of Bazunu with the constant digging out of stats that do not relate to reality - but people have been unfairly critical of Kelleher as well) - and instead focus on where the real problems are.
Fair dues to ya.
Thanks for sharing about Tommy Farquharson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Farquharson Had never heard of him despite his colourful life. From mixed religion family, Joined the IRA. Forced to move abroad (strange that he was allowed move to the "mainland" as it was then - did he do a deal ?). Carried a gun with him to games (because of the deal ?). Joined the Benedictines but had wife and 5 children.
As for Bazunu and Kelleher, think I'd prefer the former. The latter will be dropped as soon as Allison is fit again and let one through his legs last night. Not much in it though.
Fair play to you JRG for the time and effort put into your posts. Your support of Bazunu and knowledge of Irish international football is remarkable. I hope he delivers for you and proves doubters like myself wrong.
Harsh, given it was deflected from very close range!Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Jesus, his own player flicks it through his legs. If you think that's a goalkeeping error then you won't want to watch some of Gav's recent performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
JRG is right about the general quality of goalkeeping in the premier league being really high. I haven't seen enough of Sheffield United's new keeper Grbic but leaving that aside, I don't think there's a genuinely bad starting keeper in the league. I'd have Kelleher as the 9th best keeper in the league right now, but really you could make an argument for anything from 5th to 19th without it being too controversial.
People are right that Gav is 3/4 years younger than Caoimhin and there's time to grow. At 19, Gav was miles ahead of Kelleher at the same age. He was very similar to Donnaruma at that age. Excellent with some obvious areas to work on. The issue with him is, he was a better keeper at 19 than he is now - he hasn't improved where the flaws were and new cracks have emerged.
On one hand, it's probably a confidence thing. Goalkeeping is such a mentally difficult job and people don't always overcome the self doubt. The other side is coaching, genuinely has he gotten the right coaching over the last 3 years to bring him onto the level that his talent reflected?
Yeah, for context, it's here at 1:15. "Very close range" is about 3 yards like! You can't use that to argue for Bazunu over Kelleher given Bazunu has unfortunately let in more than his share of weak efforts lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I am a staunch believer in the current ability and future potential of Bazunu. There has been a faction of support that, for whatever reason, have had the knives out almost since day one behind a solid campaign for Kelleher to be our first choice. At no point until recently, i believe, was this a realistic take but right now it is hard to see past Kelleher.
With all of that for context, it does really bother me that we do have posters that question Bazunu's ability and potential. I just cannot reconcile it. He has won plaudits everywhere before Southampton - player of the season stuff. He is recognized as one of the best (and/or most promising) young keepers in Europe. He is a very good goalkeeper going through a bad patch in what was otherwise a reasonably successful season for him. When Southampton went on their run he had the fans broadly onside and was performing well. But he has had some stinkers - mistakes and fumbles (that the stats dont show) that dont do anyones confidence any good - fans, management or the player himself. Most young keepers playing at a high level go through this as part of their growth. I cant think of one who hasnt?? And at the end of the day, it is how he responds that will be most important. But again, i cant believe that i find myself having to try and convince more than one poster on here that he is a good goalkeeper with a hell of a lot of additional upside...
In retrospect, I think Southampton was just a bad move. Instability, weakened squad, poor defence and a losing tendency in the premiership was just a bad move. At the time I thought it would be fine but it hasnt played out well for him. And, as many of the pro-Kelleher faction (joke!) point out, moving for the sake of moving is not always the best strategy. In retrospect, i dismissed that perspective a bit too easily. There are legitimate questions there for sure about that decision, his judgement, call it what you like.
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Isn't is amazing though how all Southampton's problems are the defence and none are the keeper? (And this a defence that's given up fewer chances than most other defences - fewer than everyone bar Leeds and WBA this season; fewer than everyone bar Man City, Newcastle, Arsenal, Mand Utd and Brighton last season). It's a really lazy analysis to be honest. "Bazunu is great, therefore the problem must be with the defence". There's no real depth to the analysis other than starting from the desired answer and working backwards. Your post can be summarised as "My view + Scene missing = Fact"Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
The flip side of that is to argue his positioning was poor for that one precisely because he placed himself behind a gaggle of players - and left the whole left side of goal wide open. Is it coincidence the ball ended up there? It's the one of the three I least blame him for, mind, because of the unlikely way the shot came in, but you're still starting off with the view that Bazunu is great and working out the excuse from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Oh don't we know. They don't fit your preconceived view, therefore they must be wrong. But that's not a real argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
About the only plus side for Bazunu at the moment is that the keeper Southampton signed this season, Joe Lumley, had the worst PSxG record of any keeper in the Championship last season, while Alex McCarthy seems past it at this stage.
Can't believe anyone would blame Kelleher for that OG - that was on Bradley who lost his man on the cross (incidentally Bradley has a lot of work to do on the defensive side of his game that would be shown up in a weaker team I think).
This is why I wouldn't actually mind seeing Bazunu moving to become a number 2 at a top tier club for a year or two if the opportunity came up. He will have learned an awful lot from four consecutive seasons of first team football by the age of 22, but going to a club where he could learn from the top GK coaches and train with a top class keeper might actually be a better way of tidying up some of the issues in his game now.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
When have I ever said that Bazunu is 'great' ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Let me ask you this question - how many Southampton games have you watched this season ? - I'll even make it easier - how many Southampton games have you watched the highlights of? - or is it a case that you just scurry off to study your stats after every game, just so that you can some on here to ridicule Bazunu's performance when the stats claim he is the worst goalkeeper in the Championship ?
The Achilles heel for Southampton, just like last season, is the failure of their defence to close down attackers lining up to strike the ball - time and again the striker has an age to set-up, pick a spot and shoot. When you give a good striker that amount of time they will score more often than not irrespective of who is in goal.
See questions above -Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Not the case - I would argue that Bazunu was positioned in the correct spot for a left-footed shot on a ball coming in from his right - he lost line of sight when the Ipswich player fell over and two Southampton players (one was Smallbone) moved a step to the left without challenging Sarmiento as he got up and toe-poked the ball into the corner with his right-foot. There were four Southampton players within two yards of Sarmiento, four players who saw him trip himself up, fall over, scramble back onto his feet and get a shot away, without one of them getting any kind of a challenge in or attempting to block the shot. Smallbone should have thrown himself in front of the ball (Shane Duffy style) to prevent it getting anywhere near the goal, instead he just stood there and then held his hands out to say 'what the hell just happened here'.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I do think that Bazunu was slightly out of position for the second goal - a step too far to his right and he looked like he was anticipating a shot to his right and seemed to talk a half step to the right before diving to the left - a combination of all three left him unable to reach the ball. This is why I suggest that the second goal was the one I would have expected him to save from the three - and it was the most crucial goal in the game - save that and Southampton probably win - conceding it led to increased pressure on Southampton and ultimately the concession of the winning goal for Ipswich. I did say that Bazunu did not have a good game against Ipswich and does bear the primary responsibility for Southampton losing the game. When you play a young goalkeeper you have to expect this to happen. It must also be noted that Ipswich are a good team and Kieran McKenna is a way better coach than Russell Martin.
When stats are being used to claim that Bazunu is the worst goalkeeper in the Championship you are damned right I am going to dismiss them.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
On the plus side - you are not picking any team that Bazunu plays for and your comments have zero impact on his performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
On a more general point (not addressing this to stu specifically because it doesn't directly relate to goalkeeping stats) - goalkeepers have the most difficult job of any of the eleven players on a soccer team - they are expected to save everything - they are not expected to make mistakes - they are the first to be blamed when a goal is conceded etc. Soccer is a team game - you attack from the back and you defend from the front - and when that breaks down the one player that gets exposed is the goalkeeper.
All goalkeepers can and do make mistakes - the best goalkeepers tend to make the fewest mistakes and be consistent, but also tend to be protected by the best defences - and they usually only get to that stage after 10/15 years of good coaching and development.
Ireland are currently ranked 60th in the FIFA rankings - but I would happily have Bazunu, Kelleher and Travers in my squad ahead of Scotland's (ranked 39th) Gunn, Kelly and Gordon, ahead of Wales (29th) Hennessy, Ward and King - even ahead of England's (ranked 4th) Pickford, Ramsdale and Trafford. In fact there are very few international squads that I would rank their 3 goalkeepers ahead of the three we have available. It is further worth noting that very few international squads have goalkeepers who are as young as the Irish keepers and few that have goalkeepers who are under 30 years of age. Kelleher is 25, Travers is 24 and Bazunu is 22 - and they all play in the a country that is flooded with money to buy the best players, including the best goalkeepers. Most of the larger countries have one top goalkeeper - but the quality quickly drops off after that. Ireland has the potential in the next five years to have two top level keepers and a third one who will be at least a good Championship level keeper who could also develop into a PL player in the future.
We have good goalkeepers who are still developing and (potentially) will get (a lot) better - it what is in front of them that we really need to address.
Bazunu is on a five year contract from last year - so I suspect he will be at Southampton for the foreseeable future - if they were to buy a keeper, he will not be anything approaching a top class keeper and that would not make any difference if they are promoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
My preference would be for Martin to get sacked for failing to get them promoted - a new coach who is able to organise a defence is hired - and a proper goalkeeping coach.
I would agree with stu on one other thing - Southampton have nothing behind Bazunu - and a keeper who would provide more competition for Bazunu would, in my opinion, be good for his development.
I actually regularly watch the highlights - the Sky Sports site is great for that (I've linked their highlights here a few times; usually available within an hour of the final whistle). That's one of the main reasons I know you're talking nonsense when you make claims like how Bazunu makes at least one great save per game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Southampton fans regularly watch their games too and I can see from their forum that - as others here have said - there's a definite lack of confidence in him. It lifted briefly while they were doing very well (that is, while they were keeping the ball away from him), but it's come back home to roost with avengeance lately. Even Russell Martin commented on it after the last game. No doubt you think they're talking nonsense too. After all, when people claim he's the worst keeper in the Championship, "you're damn right I'm going to dismiss them" - but that's not an argument. That's back to "My view + scene missing = fact!"
But at this stage I think we all expect no better from you in fairness. It's like Orwell at this stage - keeper good, defence bad. Repeat until people start to believe it over the evidence of their eyes.
I regularly watch entire games involving Southampton - and the highlights show 4/5/6 incidents per game - and even then they will show Bazunu making saves. Furthermore, try direct quotes, rather than your usual paper castlesQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Football fans are passionate and volatile - and, as I pointed out before, when things are going bad the goalkeeper is usually the brunt of the criticism. As for your 'keeping the ball away from him' - that is what a defence is supposed to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
And where did I place the blame for Southampton's loss last Monday - or did you conveniently just decide to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We all know that stats are the be-all-and-end-all for you - irrespective of anything else - and claiming nonsense like Bazunu is the worst keeper in the Championship certainly fits into the narrative that you have been pushing for a long time now.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Would you give over. Nobody would be saying a lot about bazunu if he was closer to even -3 or -4 goals prevented. the stats are never the full story but they do tell you something, ignoring that is burying your head in the sand. lets be realistic about where gav is here. he is the worst shot stopper (stu isnt saying worst overall) in the championship by a few metrics. Bazunu would admit himself that thats not good enough. All the players these days are fed the same stats (in much finer detail) to help them with improving their game + contract talks etc. he'll know himself how they show him in a poor light alongside video highlights etc.
Good summary JD
I mean, it misses the important fact that JRG is right no matter what anyone else has to say, and is in fact so far right he doesn't even need to back up why he's right. A minor point though... :p
Anyway, let's see how today goes - up against Sammie. Can't miss v can't save? All set up for a great performance
stu has been banging on about Bazunu's stats for a very long time now - and I have never seen one positive post from stu in relation to Bazunu (I'm sure it will be dug out now that I have made this comment).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd2793
Of course Bazunu is not the finished article - he is 22 years old - goalkeepers do not reach their prime until they are 30 years old. I will repeat again - Bazunu has and will continue to concede a lot of shots because the Southampton defence have a propensity of standing off strikers with the ball, allowing them to set-up, pick their spot and strike the ball without any challenge. When you do that the striker will score more often than not, irrespective how good the keeper is. You are exposing your goalkeeper and the keeper will always get the blame (and under Kenny Ireland had a similar propensity).
My responses to stu (and some others) are that they adopt a hypercritical approach in relation to Bazunu - an approach that is not taken in relation to any other player in the squad - and this is despite the fact that Bazunu is and will be one of the best keepers ever to play for Ireland. I openly admit that I bend the stick the other way - because it is needed when such a hypercritical approach is taken.
Gavin Bazunu has flaws - I am sure he knows his weaknesses and I am sure he is working on them. However, even with these flaws he is a cracking good keeper - one that we are lucky to have. I expect him to develop and improve and I think he is capable of becoming one of the top keepers in the PL. Time will tell if that happens. He is not in a great situation at the moment - he is playing in a team where the manager emphasises attack, not defence - he is repeatedly exposed by his defence - he bears the brunt of the criticism for the failings of the team in relation to defence. From what I can see he doesn't have a good coaching situation to help him - and he could end up in a worse situation if Southampton get promoted.
I have agreed with the assessment that Bazunu has not progressed as he should have this season - and he does need to address his weaknesses in a more proactive way because if he doesn't they will become embedded in his play. However, as Irish fans we have a different outlook and want different outcomes than Southampton do - we want Bazunu to develop to ensure that we have a secure goalkeeper for the international team over then next 15 years or so. Southampton have the option to go out and buy a different keeper if they feel Bazunu does not develop sufficiently. We do not have that luxury - we are stuck with what comes through the wider football system in this country - and it would be a major surprise if we find another keeper of the standard of Kelleher and Bazunu in the next 15 years.
By all means criticise Bazunu - when he deserves it. But do it in a balanced way, not in a hypercritical fashion. Recognise that he is still a kid in goalkeeping terms, learning his trade and trying to do it in a much, much more difficult situation than Caoimhin Kelleher, with far less resources. One of the key factors between the two is that Kelleher can have complete confidence in the defence in front of him and his play benefits accordingly - Bazunu is exposed by his defence and clearly cannot have confidence in it. This leaves Bazunu in a position where he is more hesitant in his goalkeeping that Kelleher needs to be, and it is clearly impacting on his performance and his development. I made this point before - put Bazunu into the WBA team (where they have a journeyman goalkeeper who is 27 years old and has spent his entire career bouncing around non-league and League 2 teams) and you would see different play from Bazunu - he would be in a much better situation and would develop far more rapidly - unfortunately he is stuck in Southampton for the foreseeable future.
It was all set up for a 0-0 as soon as you posted that!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The power of a pokey internet forum in the corner of the internet! :D
One noticeable feature of the Blackburn v Southampton game were the number of shots blocked by Southampton defenders and the number of shots that the striker was under pressure from the defender. That did not happen last Monday and Southampton conceded three goals - it did happen yesterday, repeatedly, and Southampton had a clean sheet. Bazunu had a clean game, made a couple of decent saves that you would expect him to make and did a decent job distributing the ball.
I think that's unfair. I didn't see many of the games during their good run but I'd look on Twitter to see how he was doing and quite often during that spell there'd be posts like "credit to Bazunu, good save at an important time " (i.e., 0-0, 1-1-, 1-0 or whatever). And that's exactly what you want your keeper to be doing - making saves at important times in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Eleven clean sheets this season in the championship, that's joint-fifth with Max O'Leary, and two others
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023...p#Clean_sheets
That's a stat that needs to be taken in context though - in how many of those games did he face only one or two shots on target for example? Take the run in Nov/Dec - 6 clean sheets in 11 games. But in that -
Millwall had one shot on target
WBA had two (one scored)
Huddersfield had two (one scored)
Bristol City had one
Cardiff had two
Watford had four (one scored)
Coventry had four (one scored)
Blackburn had four
QPR had two
Swansea had one
Plymouth had one (which was scored)
That's a decent enough run of form overall in fairness, but when you're only facing one or two shots a game, it does make it much easier to keep a clean sheet. And that doesn't track whether the shots were daisy-cutters or pile-drivers into the top corner (or, as in the Plymouth example, a goalkeeper blunder). And while he made a couple of very good saves in that run (can't remember who it was against when he somehow got a foot to a six-yard piledriver in a scramble from a corner for example), I think it also undermines the idea that Bazunu was making big saves regularly (every game, as JRG has claimed).
It's why PSxG is a much better metric; it rates keepers far more evenly across a division. It may explain why some Southampton fans on their forum are saying they'd like to see a move for Johanssen, the Rotherham keeper, for example. He's only kept four clean sheets though - does that mean he's much worse than Bazunu?
The lengths to which you'd go to undermine any hint of praise for this kid...
I'm sorry for a bit of analysis on a stat which I don't think shows what tets intends it to show. And on a discussion forum too!
Won't do it again.
Then you should include the number of games where the other keepers faced a similar number of shots, and how many of them resulted in clean sheets