Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

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14/12/2009, 8:12 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fly

You inferred that those voters who vote for either SDLP or SF, display their opposition to the 'existance of Northern Ireland' by doing so

Got it in one, Einstein. The SDLP's first priority (of the 20 listed on the front page of their official site) is a united Ireland. Which does rather suggest opposition to the existence of Northern Ireland, like. Sinn Fein's position is similar, I'll not bother cutting and pasting that one.

Quote:

Once again you have failed to answer the question posed , "clarify how you would expect the nationalist population of NI, and indeed the entire electorate of NI, to demonstrate their 'Northern Irish' identity". Which party's 'main political program', as you put it, is 'Northern Irish' nationalism. You cite parties from Britain and the Republic - do they present this platform to the electorate?

I've already answered the question perfectly clearly. I expect nationalist voters to continue to vote for the big two nationalist parties, as they have done for decades. They have a choice to organise in, influence the local policy of, and vote for plenty of other parties, and prefer not to. I judge them by what they do, it's quite simple really.

Quote:

It's suggestive of being a WUM. Issues concerning football in Northern Ireland, and indeed the NI international side itself, are dealt with comprehensively on OWC. They don't occupy alot of your time, relative to the amount spent on foot.ie

Are you quite obsessive? Like the other NI fans on this thread- and on foot.ie generally- I respond to (often repetitive and sometimes incoherent) posts by others. Look there for your wind-up. And honestly, no-one else cares what proportion of my posts, or yours, or anybody's, are on which website.
14/12/2009, 8:23 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

And so ad infinitum, adding 50 pages here, 50 pages there, until the only people left to contribute are Ardee Oul Bhoy, DanTheOulMan, and maybe even the World's Longest-Living Fly, as they mutually congratulate themselves on their cleverness and debating skills.

Meanwhile, if we are spared, GR, NB and myself and others will just get on with watching our team, with an open invitation to yourself, Gspain, Osarusan and all the rest to come and join us, any time you feel like it.

With due respect its mainly yourself and GR that have kept this thread "alive." Wonder you have any time or energy left to expend on your NI team. What's the score with Worthington abandoning ship and heading off to Sheffield Wednesday? Pity you cant find a manager with as much commitment to the cause as your good self.
14/12/2009, 8:49 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

With due respect its mainly yourself and GR that have kept this thread "alive." Wonder you have any time or energy left to expend on your NI team. What's the score with Worthington abandoning ship and heading off to Sheffield Wednesday? Pity you cant find a manager with as much commitment to the cause as your good self.

It's quite simple, really.

If people attack my team, I'll defend it.

When they stop attacking it, I'll stop defending it.

It's what football fans the world over tend to do.

As for my "energy" for the NI team - in case you haven't noticed, there's not a lot going on at the moment.

As for the risk of our losing NW, I would be sad to see him go, since I think he's done a reasonable job with the 1st team, and an excellent job below that level.

But I do not kid myself as to the attractions (or otherwise) of the NI manager's job. For the past decade or two have clearly proven that international management is no longer the pinnacle for any ambitious manager to aspire to - the clubs hold the whip hand, now.

Therefore, unless an Association can somehow pay "over the odds" to secure their man (eg Eriksson, Capello), then most other countries will have to accept that they must appoint either young, middle-ranking managers who will ultimately use international football as a "stepping stone" (eg Mark Hughes or Alec McLeish) or senior managers who see a nice, well-paid international post as a cushy, pre-retirement sinecure (eg Big Jack, Trapattoni).

Failing that, they could take a chance on a novice (or relative novice) and risk him turning out to be useless (eg McIlroy, Staunton).

Still, that's the way it is. In my nearly 40 years of following NI, I have seen managers come and go. If I manage to buck the odds and make it to another 40 years (possible though unlikely), I'm confident that regardless of who's in charge, I'll at least still have a team to follow, same as I've always had.

IFA - Original and (George) Best!
14/12/2009, 9:04 PM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Got it in one, Einstein. The SDLP's first priority (of the 20 listed on the front page of their official site) is a united Ireland. Which does rather suggest opposition to the existence of Northern Ireland, like. Sinn Fein's position is similar, I'll not bother cutting and pasting that one.

All those years under John Hume's stewardship, and voters were really, singularly, voting SDLP for a united Ireland?
Don't answer.

Quote:

I've already answered the question perfectly clearly. I expect nationalist voters to continue to vote for the big two nationalist parties, as they have done for decades. They have a choice to organise in, influence the local policy of, and vote for plenty of other parties, and prefer not to. I judge them by what they do, it's quite simple really.

What they do, i.e how they vote, is done in the context of an abnormal society. The comparison you drew earlier with the political system in Britain does not hold.

The other options have only appeared on the horizon as NI society has become more normalised. These other options, in the form of Fianna Fail and the Tories, are at an embryonic stage whilst Northern Ireland has yet to produce it's own internally.
Why?.....well we all know the reason.

Quote:

Are you quite obsessive? Like the other NI fans on this thread- and on foot.ie generally- I respond to (often repetitive and sometimes incoherent) posts by others. Look there for your wind-up. And honestly, no-one else cares what proportion of my posts, or yours, or anybody's, are on which website.

No, I'm just pointing out to you, and to anyone interested, how often you post on each site. It's a bit odd. One would expect a 'fan' to post much more on their own supporters website than on that of a rival, as shown by the two most prominent NI supporters on foot.ie - Not Brazil and Ealing Green.

--------------

Option one has become irresistible.
14/12/2009, 9:09 PM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Don't worry, Predator. The Mods can keep it in abeyance until the next poor sap thinks: "Wouldn't it be grand if we all got together in one team - sure we'd bate the whole world and all..."

And so ad infinitum, adding 50 pages here, 50 pages there, until the only people left to contribute are Ardee Oul Bhoy, DanTheOulMan, and maybe even the World's Longest-Living Fly, as they mutually congratulate themselves on their cleverness and debating skills.

Meanwhile, if we are spared, GR, NB and myself and others will just get on with watching our team, with an open invitation to yourself, Gspain, Osarusan and all the rest to come and join us, any time you feel like it.

You're welcome to your opinion of course EG, but just to be technically correct, could you show me where I have congratulated the two members you mention, or indeed anyone for that matter, on their 'cleverness and debating skills.'
(by which, I assume you mean a liberal use of the thanks button)
14/12/2009, 9:30 PM
Riddickcule

Quote:

Originally Posted by Den Perry

what are you talking about? no - one knows the words? You are being very disrespectful

:eek:

Patriotism is overrated, i couldn't give a f*** if it was disrespectful.

In a crowd of 70,000 about 5,000 will know the words.It's a joke.End of.
14/12/2009, 9:31 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It's quite simple, really.

If people attack my team, I'll defend it.

When they stop attacking it, I'll stop defending it.

It's what football fans the world over tend to do.

Or you could do what the 'thousands' of your fans have chosen to do. And ignore this self-indulgent whinging completely!
;)

Quote:

As for my "energy" for the NI team - in case you haven't noticed, there's not a lot going on at the moment
Except
for the risk of our losing NW, I would be sad to see him go, since I think he's done a reasonable job with the 1st team, and an excellent job below that level.

Surely this would be more of an issue with your fanbase, than a few pundits or fans suggesting an AI team and then hundreds of posts by an embittered few saying this will never happen.
One each would have of sufficed.

It's not as If we'd ever get a 'Right of reply' on a reciprocal MB, such is the paranoia!
:eek:
14/12/2009, 9:32 PM
dantheman

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Don't worry, Predator. The Mods can keep it in abeyance until the next poor sap thinks: "Wouldn't it be grand if we all got together in one team - sure we'd bate the whole world and all..."

Dear oh dear. Hold on here a second. This started off as a thread about whether the FAI and IFA should merge. Despite the fact that on this issue I am in agreement with you and the other uber/proper "NI fans" on this issue about not wanting the two teams to unify again, which would be at odds with my political beliefs, I get slaughtered for pointing out the legitimate reasons why, and MOST northern nationalists, do not support the NI team.

Even if there were a UI in the morning, just as in the UK now, there could be an argument for still retaining the separate NI team. I also agree than an all UK team is more likely than a UI team for now. This would be great. It is something the FAI should push for, as it would only benefit them with an even stronger de facto all-Ireland team under their control (increased playing pool and free from the policies of the IFA).

It seems that if at some stage in the future, the unionists dominated IFA do change the anthem to something more representative, and stop being the only team in the UK without a representative anthem - not England, the Queen is English of course (although she qualifies for Germany I believe,the reverse of Maik Taylor :D) - they will feel entitled to some praise for this monumental effort. Just like their business partners, Linfield, for slowly reversing their sectarian signing policies. Wow. Where is that medal?
Ironically should nationalists residents of NI, for whom the team is supposed/alleged to be representative, point out any failings in the policies of the IFA (and blind eye turned by far too many of the fans), then they are castigated as being provos and the like.
It seems is not their business to be involved in any decisions like that! Just the present day unionist board. Sorry, I forgot about that one "RC" that slipped the net. :rolleyes:
So you can indeed be a "NI fan", if you accept all the baggage unqestioningly. Which was my point

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

And so ad infinitum, adding 50 pages here, 50 pages there, until the only people left to contribute are Ardee Oul Bhoy, DanTheOulMan, and maybe even the World's Longest-Living Fly, as they mutually congratulate themselves on their cleverness and debating skills.

You really did go to debating schoool with Jim Allishter. If you scan the posts properly you'll see that myself and Ardeebhoy are not in agreement on everything. In fact, we don't even agree on the main point of this topic (merging the two associations).
The Fly has thanked me a grand sum of 0 times, and I have indeed been thinked by that well-known republican Not Brazil. Not that I lose any sleep over this. There is no pan-nationalist front here, calm down lad!

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Meanwhile, if we are spared, GR, NB and myself and others will just get on with watching our team, with an open invitation to yourself, Gspain, Osarusan and all the rest to come and join us, any time you feel like it.

Why are you inviting "foreigners" (by your definition) to watch your team over the head over nationalists from NI.
Shouldn't you be building bridges in your own community first? Is that not a lack of integrity in itself, only inviting those who agree with you?
Stop poaching fans!!

Anyway best of luck to NI in the Euro qualifiers, whoever manages them. I hope both they and the Republic qualify, unless they meet in a playoff (unlikely), in which case I'll be for the Republic.

On an aside, good weekend for the Irish provinces in the rugby but especially my team, Ulster. Proud of the lads <insert big green smily face>:D
14/12/2009, 9:35 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddickcule

:eek:

Patriotism is overrated, couldn't give a f*** if it was disrespectful.

In a crowd of 70,000 about 5,000 will know the words.It's a joke.End of.

Actually you're wrong. About 70-80% minimum at least, are :rolleyes: mouthing the words.
Away from Ireland games, no-one, unless they suffer from amnesia, has an excuse for not learning at school. Or they could even use the Internet....
14/12/2009, 9:40 PM
Riddickcule

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Actually you're wrong.

Of course i'm wrong, it wouldn't be foot.ie then would it ?
14/12/2009, 9:42 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Though of course Dan, by the logic used on here by some, we should now engage in embittered argument for not agreeing on every issue!
Noticed Fly on OWB;starting to think some of the people on there are almost 'reasonable' as at least they'd just say 'No and wouldn't bother to engage again, unlike certain parrots on here.
14/12/2009, 9:43 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddickcule

Of course i'm wrong, it wouldn't be foot.ie then would it ?

Nothing to do with foot.ie! Do you go to Ireland games?
14/12/2009, 9:45 PM
Riddickcule

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Nothing to do with foot.ie! Do you go to Ireland games?

Yes, i've been to a few, why you ask ?
14/12/2009, 9:59 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Well according to you, 90% aren't singing the anthem. Which would have been wrong, even if we'd been talking about a PD's conference, FFS.

Might I or others, humbly suggest you go to an optician or listen more keenly??
14/12/2009, 10:06 PM
dantheman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Though of course Dan, by the logic used on here by some, we should now engage in embittered argument for not agreeing on every issue!

Just don't click the thanks button ffs!!!:D
14/12/2009, 10:19 PM
ArdeeBhoy

I know. And up until this thread had barely used!
But even though you, I and The Fly don't or won't agree on every issue, it :rolleyes: seems like we should.....it must be down to 1-2 others, we won't mention.;)

Of whom at least one, someone has rightly identified their primary foible! :eek:
15/12/2009, 2:37 AM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Don't worry, Predator. The Mods can keep it in abeyance until the next poor sap thinks: "Wouldn't it be grand if we all got together in one team - sure we'd bate the whole world and all..."

And so ad infinitum, adding 50 pages here, 50 pages there, until the only people left to contribute are Ardee Oul Bhoy, DanTheOulMan, and maybe even the World's Longest-Living Fly, as they mutually congratulate themselves on their cleverness and debating skills.

Meanwhile, if we are spared, GR, NB and myself and others will just get on with watching our team, with an open invitation to yourself, Gspain, Osarusan and all the rest to come and join us, any time you feel like it.

I appreciate that EG. Nevertheless, I genuinely do hope to see a re-united team one day. I can only hope someday you'll feel the same with regard to the matter, since I can't persuade you! :)
15/12/2009, 8:15 AM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fly

All those years under John Hume's stewardship, and voters were really, singularly, voting SDLP for a united Ireland?
Don't answer

No, they obviously thought John Hume was imperial grand wizard of the Orange Order. Change the record, man.

Quote:

What they do, i.e how they vote, is done in the context of an abnormal society. The comparison you drew earlier with the political system in Britain does not hold. The other options have only appeared on the horizon as NI society has become more normalised. These other options, in the form of Fianna Fail and the Tories, are at an embryonic stage whilst Northern Ireland has yet to produce it's own internally. Why?.....well we all know the reason

I don't disagree it's an abnormal society (as evidence of which almost everyone votes primarily on whether there should be a border). Nationalists and unionists voting as they do for single-issue parties are a cause of that abnormailty as much as a reaction to it. If voters in Derry really wanted to vote Fianna Fail, they could have argued for and achieved it in 1926 or soon after.

Quote:

One would expect a 'fan' to post much more on their own supporters website than on that of a rival, as shown by the two most prominent NI supporters on foot.ie - Not Brazil and Ealing Green

You individually might expect, no-one else is particularly bothered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd Policeman

With due respect its mainly yourself and GR that have kept this thread "alive"

Only partly. Of well over 1,000 posts, about 125 from EG and I. Even add in NB's valuable contribution and it's still a minority of the thread. Which stayed alive beyond page one only because there's a significant minority of posters on this site, including you personally, who just can't stop stirring it.

Quote:

What's the score with Worthington abandoning ship and heading off to Sheffield Wednesday? Pity you cant find a manager with as much commitment to the cause as your good self

I imagine he'll take the SW job if offered it, though there's plenty of competition from other unemployed managers. If he isn't offered it, he'll likely stay with NI. I think you misunderstand the difference between fans- with a lifelong commitment to the team- and an employee whose contract is about to run out and is considering other jobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy

Surely this would be more of an issue with your fanbase, than a few pundits or fans suggesting an AI team and then hundreds of posts by an embittered few saying this will never happen. One each would have of sufficed

Why repeat youself 150 times then?

Quote:

It's not as If we'd ever get a 'Right of reply' on a reciprocal MB

The only thing stopping your right of reply on message boards is that you keep getting banned for posting semi-coherent sectarian nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

the Queen is English of course (although she qualifies for Germany I believe,the reverse of Maik Taylor

No, neither of her parents or grandparents were Germans, you'd need to go back to a great-grandparent to find one. Like Tony Cantscorani, maybe. Enjoy the anthems, or if not make a cup of coffee and stop getting in a tizzy.

Quote:

I get slaughtered for pointing out the legitimate reasons why, and MOST northern nationalists, do not support the NI team

Calm down and don't be so melodramatic. Nobody's slaughtering, just answering your point. If you don't want to support NI fine, no-one's forcing you.

Quote:

I also agree than an all UK team is more likely than a UI team for now. This would be great. It is something the FAI should push for, as it would only benefit them with an even stronger de facto all-Ireland team under their control (increased playing pool and free from the policies of the IFA

Neither is likely; you might as well look forward to a Lions team as in rugby union. Then you'd be able to support the best players from England, rather than just those who can't get in the England side. I'd be wary before giving any more control to an FAI which reacts to defeat with childish tantrum.

Quote:

It seems that if at some stage in the future, the unionists dominated IFA do change the anthem to something more representative...they will feel entitled to some praise for this monumental effort. Just like their business partners, Linfield, for slowly reversing their sectarian signing policies. Wow. Where is that medal?

You need to drop this obsession, Dan. The IFA and Linfield have moved with the times; they'll likely continue to do so; no-one asks any credit from you for this.

Quote:

Ironically should nationalists residents of NI, for whom the team is supposed/alleged to be representative, point out any failings in the policies of the IFA (and blind eye turned by far too many of the fans), then they are castigated as being provos and the like

The team represents everyone who wants to support it, no allegation necessary. Nobody is equating criticising the IFA with support for paramilitarism. You need to have a lie down.

Quote:

So you can indeed be a "NI fan", if you accept all the baggage unqestioningly. Which was my point

Aye, and it was a daft point. All you have to do to be a NI fan is a) support the NI team and b) not want it to be abolished. Nobody has to accept anything unquestioningly.

Quote:

Why are you inviting "foreigners" (by your definition) to watch your team over the head over nationalists from NI. Shouldn't you be building bridges in your own community first? Is that not a lack of integrity in itself, only inviting those who agree with you? Stop poaching fans!!

We invite anyone who wants to come and watch our team. I'd get a new gag-writer while you're at it.

Quote:

Anyway best of luck to NI in the Euro qualifiers, whoever manages them. I hope both they and the Republic qualify, unless they meet in a playoff (unlikely), in which case I'll be for the Republic

Good man, let's hope both qualify. I wouldn't entirely rule out a play off; and who knows, those nice people at UEFA might even seed you for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predator

I can only hope someday you'll feel the same with regard to the matter, since I can't persuade you!

It's a vain hope, Pred. You might as well just drop it.
15/12/2009, 9:35 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Surely a new benchmark for pomposity.
More irrelevant nonsense;If you're going to say something, at least keep it realistic.
15/12/2009, 10:03 AM
kingdomkerry

Can't believe this has gone on for 54 pages. Its like this demogrpahic thrends are rapidly changing. There will be a nationalist majority in the north in the not too distant future( http://ulstersdoomed.blogspot.com/se...bel/Demography ). An AI team will follow.
15/12/2009, 10:31 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Aye, but don't tell the paranoid.
;)
15/12/2009, 10:41 AM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingdom Kerry

Can't believe this has gone on for 54 pages. Its like this demogrpahic thrends are rapidly changing. There will be a nationalist majority in the north in the not too distant future( http://ulstersdoomed.blogspot.com/se...bel/Demography ). An AI team will follow

You know rightly why it's lasted 54 pages, and why it'll inevitably be followed by another when this one peters out or is deleted.

As I said up-thread, you're daydreaming about those trends seeing an end to the NI football team. Nationalists are getting 42% in NI elections- that's 16% behind. A few extra Catholic christenings doesn't mean nationalist voters in 20 years time. Even if it did, there's no guarantee that voters in the Republic will vote for re-unity, particularly if the country remains in serious recession for any length of time. And ultimately a small adjustment to the border (running it along the river Foyle, say) would likely vanish any notional nationalist majority.

But even more fundamentally than all that, there's already an all-Ireland-plus-various-Brits team for you to support. Go and support it and stop stirring.
15/12/2009, 11:04 AM
seanfhear

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

Can't believe this has gone on for 54 pages. Its like this demogrpahic thrends are rapidly changing. There will be a nationalist majority in the north in the not too distant future( http://ulstersdoomed.blogspot.com/se...bel/Demography ). An AI team will follow.

That site convinces me that people should make love not war:p
15/12/2009, 11:24 AM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Only partly. Of well over 1,000 posts, about 125 from EG and I. Even add in NB's valuable contribution and it's still a minority of the thread. Which stayed alive beyond page one only because there's a significant minority of posters on this site, including you personally, who just can't stop stirring it.

I'd guess that yourself and Not Brazil have made up the vast bulk of something between 400 - 500 posts, replying to what you regard as a significant minority of stirrers.
:D
15/12/2009, 12:07 PM
ArdeeBhoy

But then, as is the traditional sport in N-E Ulster, Hypocrisy is the order of the day!

That. And a failure to grasp basic Maths.
15/12/2009, 1:38 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

I'd guess that yourself and Not Brazil have made up the vast bulk of something between 400 - 500 posts, replying to what you regard as a significant minority of stirrers:D

Aye, like I said.

Luckily, even I can't be arsed to reply to every post by Ardee Bhoy- or you could add 100 more to your figure above.
15/12/2009, 1:55 PM
Den Perry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddickcule

:eek:

Patriotism is overrated, i couldn't give a f*** if it was disrespectful.

In a crowd of 70,000 about 5,000 will know the words.It's a joke.End of.

Its not "end of" just because you say so. You're a disgrace
15/12/2009, 3:50 PM
kingdomkerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

You know rightly why it's lasted 54 pages, and why it'll inevitably be followed by another when this one peters out or is deleted.

As I said up-thread, you're daydreaming about those trends seeing an end to the NI football team. Nationalists are getting 42% in NI elections- that's 16% behind. A few extra Catholic christenings doesn't mean nationalist voters in 20 years time. Even if it did, there's no guarantee that voters in the Republic will vote for re-unity, particularly if the country remains in serious recession for any length of time. And ultimately a small adjustment to the border (running it along the river Foyle, say) would likely vanish any notional nationalist majority.

But even more fundamentally than all that, there's already an all-Ireland-plus-various-Brits team for you to support. Go and support it and stop stirring.

Im not daydreaming. You are living in denial. The face is the relative strengths of the two blocks are approximately: Unionist 50%, Nationalist 43%. The outcome of the last NI election was 49% unionist, 42.2% nationalist. Don't assume "others" ie 7% are unionist.

People in the republic would overwhelmingly vote for unity.

The GFA makes no allowances for repartition. Over 80% of Irelands population would be totally against it even if it is the unionists doomsday strategy.

Im not stirring. Im saying there is going to be a nationalist majority in the north. This increases the chance of a UI. A UI could mean that the FAI and IFA have to merge. Thats what I thought the point of the thread is.
15/12/2009, 4:08 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingdom Kerry

Don't assume "others" ie 7% are unionist

I don't, merely pointing out the obvious that they aren't nationalist. A nationalist majority in NI means more than 50%, not merely outnumbering unionists. If Alliance, Green and other voters were that keen on a united Ireland, they'd vote for it.

Quote:

People in the republic would overwhelmingly vote for unity

I doubt they would, if it ever became more than a notional possibility. Think of the increased costs to the state, the large and disaffected minority with no identification with it and so on. You simply can't say with any certainty, it 'd be your favorite denial to think so.

Quote:

The GFA makes no allowances for repartition

So what? Do you think the GFA is set in stone forever, like a 1,000 year reich or something?

Quote:

Thats what I thought the point of the thread is

Yes, to stir. There isn't going to be a united Ireland in the next generation; maybe not in the foreseeable future; regardless of all that you don't need it to have an all-Ireland side to support.
15/12/2009, 4:22 PM
kingdomkerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

I don't, merely pointing out the obvious that they aren't nationalist. A nationalist majority in NI means more than 50%, not merely outnumbering unionists. If Alliance, Green and other voters were that keen on a united Ireland, they'd vote for it.

They aren't unionist either though. Many nationalists vote for alliance in strong majority unionist areas. The greens are neither pro or anti union. The fact is the nationalist block is approx 7% behind the unionist block and about 42,000 votes. This is simple fact and from the research I have done the nationalist block will be greater than the unionist one in the not too distant future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

I doubt they would, if it ever became more than a notional possibility. Think of the increased costs to the state, the large and disaffected minority with no identification with it and so on. You simply can't say with any certainty, it 'd be your favorite denial to think so.

I have lived in Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Galway and I have never met a southern unionist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

So what? Do you think the GFA is set in stone forever, like a 1,000 year reich or something?

No but I do believe repartition will never be allowed to happen. In fact im sure of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Yes, to stir. There isn't going to be a united Ireland in the next generation; maybe not in the foreseeable future; regardless of all that you don't need it to have an all-Ireland side to support.

Demographics suggest otherwise. Considering the close allignment between religion and political preference in NI, I would disagree, not because of some romantic aspiration but because of demographic fact.
15/12/2009, 4:35 PM
dantheman

Quote:

And ultimately a small adjustment to the border (running it along the river Foyle, say) would likely vanish any notional nationalist majority.

Dear Lord. Do you think the UK government would trim the border, and have the same problem come back again in 50 years or so?

Dear oh dear. If there was to be repartition, some Unionists seem to think that simply the cityside of Derry and Newry would be trimmed away to suit them. More likely there would be a big wedge cut through the current NI jurisdiction. Tyrone, Fermanagh, most of Derry, S Armgh & Down would be "lost". West Belfast and the Glens may also be "lost". Realisically over half of the 6 counties would leave the union in this depressing scenario.

Furthermore, I fail to understand how people who consider NI to be "their country", would consider cutting it in half again? Surely its one for all and all for one. Would Fermanagh now be as foreign as Derry and Donegal are for each other? Its beyond any logical comprehension.

I remember reading somewhere that:
-for nationalists, Ulster represents the ancient province of Ireland
-for unionists, Ulster represents the maximum possible area of land mass on the island of Ireland they can control.

Its a startling difference, and the doomsday repartition analogy goes a long way to confirming this. It does little to cement a NI identity!!

Additionally the Unionists preach that the will of the majority of the people of NI should be respected. Respected that is while the majority of the people are Unionists. Then the borders should be re-drawn. Yet again. The will of the majority of the people of this new state should then be repsected. All the while paid for by the long suffering English taxpayer. It's a strange from of democracy.
15/12/2009, 4:51 PM
kingdomkerry

Exactly. Most unionists are in denial about a UI (if not a nationalist majority) in the not too distant future. The ones who do not deny their doomsday scenario will argue for repartition.

In 1921 the British would not take Ulster (9 counties) because the nationalist block was 43%. They knew in this scenario nationalists would eventually form a majority. They then decided to take the 6 counties as the nationalist block was only 33%. The British will not repartition the country again as they will have the same problems all over again.

The Irish gov will never allow partition as it knows when they have 50% + 1 there is an internationally recognised agreement that will pave the way for a British withdrawl.
15/12/2009, 4:58 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Dan,
My only confusion is why you might 'support' (despite the local links) such a notional area??

I'm still waiting for a reasoned approach on here from the other side;John B. (& occasionally NB) have been closest....

One can only live in hope.
15/12/2009, 5:34 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

Exactly. Most unionists are in denial about a UI (if not a nationalist majority) in the not too distant future.
The Irish gov will never allow partition as it knows when they have 50% + 1 there is an internationally recognised agreement that will pave the way for a British withdrawl.

I'm certainly not in denial about - if it is the wish of the majority of the electorate in Northern Ireland (and in the Republic of Ireland seperately), then, so will it be.

I just don't think, after due analysis, that it will be happening any time soon.

I know of many, many people who don't vote at "ordinary" elections - look at the turnout figures to see the % who don't bother.

I belive, strongly, that many of the abstainers would certainly vote in a "border poll" - the question is, how would they vote? I don't know, any more than you do.

With regard to British "withdrawal", whilst the British Govt would "withdraw" in such circumstances, British people in Northern Ireland wouldn't be "withdrawing" anywhere. Furthermore, many of the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc of those British people will remain British Citizens.

I gave a tip earlier, but I'll try again.

Nobody will "unite" anything on this island by demonising/vilifying the very people they seek to be "united" with.

Unless people are "united", things just aren't "united".

That includes football teams.
15/12/2009, 5:39 PM
Riddickcule

There will be unification eventually, don't you worry.
15/12/2009, 5:57 PM
kingdomkerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'm certainly not in denial about - if it is the wish of the majority of the electorate in Northern Ireland (and in the Republic of Ireland seperately), then, so will it be.

Im glad to hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I just don't think, after due analysis, that it will be happening any time soon.

I can give you analysis that says the majority of births are catholic/nationalist, the majority of people in school are nationalist, the majority of people in college are nationalist, that far more unionists go to college in Britain than nationalists and that 2/3s of deaths in NI are unionist/prodestant. This should all add up to change your mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I know of many, many people who don't vote at "ordinary" elections - look at the turnout figures to see the % who don't bother.

I know of many hardcore nationalists who will never vote in a British election except for a border poll. "I'll wait for the big one".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I belive, strongly, that many of the abstainers would certainly vote in a "border poll" - the question is, how would they vote? I don't know, any more than you do.

True. but you have to take it that the turnout is representative of both sides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

With regard to British "withdrawal", whilst the British Govt would "withdraw" in such circumstances, British people in Northern Ireland wouldn't be "withdrawing" anywhere. Furthermore, many of the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc of those British people will remain British Citizens.

Agree 100%. Nobody wants them to go anywhere. They are very welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I gave a tip earlier, but I'll try again.

Nobody will "unite" anything on this island by demonising/vilifying the very people they seek to be "united" with.

Unless people are "united", things just aren't "united".

That includes football teams.

Agree.
15/12/2009, 10:11 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

I can give you analysis that says the majority of births are catholic/nationalist, the majority of people in school are nationalist, the majority of people in college are nationalist, that far more unionists go to college in Britain than nationalists and that 2/3s of deaths in NI are unionist/prodestant. This should all add up to change your mind.

I know of many hardcore nationalists who will never vote in a British election except for a border poll. "I'll wait for the big one".

Rather than base my analysis/hopes about "the big one" on crude sectarian headcounts, I would be more minded to study what peoples attitudes are.

eg,

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2007/Polit.../NIRELND2.html

Furthermore, with the Celtic Tiger falling apart, I don't think a lot of the 66% of those favouring the Union, will be changing their mind any time soon.

By the way, if I can be convinced that me and my family would be better off in a "United" Ireland than by remaining part of the UK, i'll vote for it.

Similarly, if anyone can convince me why it would be a good idea that the International football team I support disappears, I'll buy the ticket.

Unfortunately, people demonising/vilifying/labelling me for making considered, grown up, decisions on such issues won't be going anyway towards convincing me that those people are right.
15/12/2009, 11:11 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Furthermore, with the Celtic Tiger falling apart, I don't think a lot of the 66% of those favouring the Union, will be changing their mind any time soon.

By the way, if I can be convinced that me and my family would be better off in a "United" Ireland than by remaining part of the UK, i'll vote for it.

Hmm. 'Sectarian' headcounts have been embraced by the vast majority for probably too long.
However if you're genuinely honest about the economic argument*, that's fair enough. Which matters far more :rolleyes: to the general populace than two 'mediocre' international teams, or even if it was just the one!
;)

Accept the Irish economy is pretty fecked and will be for a while;Though don't forget the Brits' one isn't too great either just now. And certain parts of it are net beneficiaries, which maybe one day they'll apply a similar economic logic to and jettison them.....

* Kind of ironic, given how certain people arrived intially in Ulster! Including my own ancestors.

And my only problem with KK & dtm's replies is that it will almost certainly generate another long-winded, pompous and repetitive reply from a certain quarter.
15/12/2009, 11:27 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Hmm. 'Sectarian' headcounts have been embraced by the vast majority for probably too long.
However if you're genuinely honest about the economic argument*, that's fair enough. Which matters far more :rolleyes: to the general populace than two 'mediocre' international teams, or even if it was just the one!
;)

I agree 100% with your assertion that sectarian headcounts have been embraced by too many for too long.

I , "genuinely", couldn't give two flying ones about where people choose to say their prayers. In this (short) life, I'm more concerned about the wellbeing of my family. At this point in time, I believe that is best served with Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom. I'll listen to anyone who has a contrary view, who doesn't disrespect my starting position.

Perhaps Dundee United and Dundee should merge - two mediocre teams.

Why don't they merge under a "Dundee City" banner? - I'm sure that would make sense to both sets of supporters.
16/12/2009, 12:09 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Well the economic argument is the most compelling. Otherwise why would the Scots hang round with the English for so long? Or vice versa.

Though as a good English 'republican' pal said, why should "we hang onto Wales and the North either, apart for sentimental reasons"?
He said besides Hong Kong, England should jettison the rest of their former colonies as economically they were a drain on a country that was or is hardly 'efficient' in any case.
And he's not the only one, to give credit to the English.

Though not sure too many Dundonians would share your own vision of rationalisation. Know a few United fans, who besides being v.pro-UI (!!!!) would just about share a ground, but don't seem too keen on their neighbours.

Partly they claim on what some might label, 'sectarian' grounds. Though given they label 'Weegee' clubs as 'Celgers', reckon they 'doth protest too much' on that front.

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