Printable View
Will slow down. Unfortunately, the vote was last week. Having met with someone currently doing a thesis on immigration in Ireland this weekend, it very much is an issue, right now. Some of the soundbites were vicious. You might have grand ideals of how and what the EU should be, but most people think with their pockets.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Afraid I disagree with you there, in parts at least. It's been proven that immigration is the easiest fear to pray on in the working class vote when jobs are on the line. The economy is slowing down and 'the foreigner' is starting to get the finger pointed at them. Lived with a builder up until about a month ago and he had nothing but bad things to say about the Poles stealing Irish jobs (never mentioned the Irish contractor who was making the decision though:rolleyes:), and during the campaign my housemate Marcelo (Brazilian) brought home the 'No To Foreign Rule' campaign poster because he thought it was ridiculously funny in it's under the table racist message.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
I agree that immigration will slow down with the economic downturn, but who do you think will get the blame for then downturn in then first place? Not the greedy Irish ******* exploiting foreign workers, oh no, that's not the Irish way, we'll point the finger at the dirty foreigner who is willing to work for less money than we are.
Back on the environment BohsPartisan, you say the EU care little for climate change? I suggest you pick up a copy of today's Guardian and read about the UK's new strictly green 2020 vision. A policy that has been implemented so they can reach the standards set out by the EU, standards that sadly aren't going to be implemented as across the board EU policy without the Lisbon Treaty.
Kind of proves my point though (if they really implement and enforce the policy - I'll have to have a look at it later) that you don't need the Lisbon Treaty for this. If the UK government can implement it without Lisbon so can everyone else.
On immigration, I meant it was a non issue in terms of the Lisbon Treaty (for the vast majority). agree it can be used to whip up prejudice and is usually done by mainstream politicians when things get desperate.
When things get sh1t there is an opportunity to racists to flourish but its up to people like us to present an alternative.
I'm not saying there are no racists, but they are in a small minority. Anyone can do a vox pop and play back the most sensational ones. I used to do vox pops and the producer for the show I was working on always picked the dumbest fux to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by "GavinZac
If people were really thinking with their pockets my "grand ideals" as you put them would be a far better way of going about it.
Unlike the other leaders, Cowen can't decide what to do with the treaty, the Irish electorate are the ones who make the decision not just for this country, but for the whole EU. We've made our decision, the treaty is null and void without us.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
With the Dail sitting for no more than 6 weeks between now and the next summit, there will be no ideas proposed by October. Sarkosy aka Napoleon, should understand that Cowen has more issues to worry about in this country, than a poxy Treaty that we've told them we don't want.
PS: The best thing for Cowen to do, would be to do nothing, and await the outcome of the legal challenges against the Constitution in the UK and the Czech Republic, before deciding what road he wants to go down.
So he should wait til October before deciding what to do then :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.
Well all the facts in the world never shut you up from making your ridiculous arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
With the greatest of respect, come back when MRBI carry out an opinion poll. If Red C told us entering the poll that the Yes side had a narrow lead on what was a relatively simple yes/no issue, how can you put much trust in a far more complex analysis based on the same sample size?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
And did the Red C ask why people voted Yes?
Perhaps, the Lisbon Treaty will be dead if we voted No?? (we'd be so lucky)
or
I didn't understand it but the political parties told me to vote yes. (D.J. Carey on Joe Duffy's Liveline)
Can we just get a few things out of the way here ?
1. Not all "No" voters did so because of the no campaign
2. Not all "Yes" voters did so because of the yes campaign
3. Not all not voters believe the no campaign or are in any way supportive of Ganley, Sinn fein etc etc
4. Not all no voters are ignorant of economic theory as it relates to europe
5. Not all no voters are opposed to a second referendum e.g. if the commissioner was restored and the powers of the foreign ministry were diluted, I will change my vote
6. It is entirely plausible and legitimate to vote no on economic grounds
7. Even if it wasn't, there is more to life than economics - plenty of people voted no for concerns around soveriegnty
8. The concern that the EU establishment want a Federal Europe is a legitimate one - even if the Treaty stops short of syaing that, there is a real, legitimate concern that a USE is the end game and this is a valid reason for voting no
9. Not everybody who did not understand the treaty voted no - plenty of people voted yes because they were advised to so do
10. It is not necessary to read the treaty to form a view on it
11. A no vote does not mean an anti EU vote
12. This was not a vote on how good you thought the EU has been in the past
13. Please do not insult my intelligence Mr Barroso by suggesting that 5 years of negotiating and summits was to produce an "administrative framework" to allow 27 countries to work together more efficiently - utter drivel
Bye now
Based on your posts, you don't sound like a Business Post reader, so I'd recommend you read the results of the poll before you comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
The only way immigration entered Lisbon was from the "they took out jobs...!!!" brigade.
If there are no jobs in Ireland foreign people will leave. Foreign workers is a sight of strong demand for workers or low supply. You won't see polish builders stay here on the dole when no work as they will leave for UK or wherever.
Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
I voted no, and im proud that our deomcracy has shown up the fools in our onw country and brussels. Why do the No voters havee to explain anything, surely its up to our elected reps to go with our choice and do some deals for us, and not whinge that they are sorry
I dunno. It's probable alright, though in a recession, who's more likely to be let go - the cheap Poles or the expensive, unionised Irish?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
You're right I'm not a business post reader. Well, I've bought it a few times depending on what was in it. Don't know why you discern that from my posts. Would it surprise you that I regularly read the Economist? I read the Irish Times (online) despite their extreme Yes bias and don't bother a Sunday Paper at all these days. (Used to get the Observer ftr).Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
The poll you cite was carried out by Red C who got the result horrendously wrong in their last poll while MRBI called the outcome close enough so I'd go with their previous poll on the referendum reasons why over Red C.
In fact if I was to go with any poll, I'd go with this detailed eurobarometer survey carried out by the European Commission.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_245_en.pdf
As you'll see one of the main reasons people gave for voting yes was "Europe has been good for Ireland", nothing to do with Lisbon.
Ah, the Norman Tebbitt cricket test?Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
PS A lot of Irish people aren't exactly top drawer.
I tend to agree with the pieces of evidence that confirm my pre-existing opinions and find fault with those which contradict it.
What in the Christ is that about?!Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
It's persumably to do with the seemingly high proportion of foreign nationals who end up in the Criminal Court, though whether that's media bias or fact is left unexplored.
% of foreign nationals who end up in the criminal courts in relation to the amount of foreign nationals permitted to work here in the same time frame please. I've never heard anyone say a high percentage of foreign nationals end up in court in this countryQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
See the second half of my post.
That works for me too :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
Business Post readers are "Yes" voters, so why would "No" voters read it?? Furthermore, since the figures and assumptions in their polls before the vote were shown to be a load of ballots, why would anyone believe them anymore??Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Our Taoiseach was given a strong mandate last week to go to Brussels, and tell them; "this was the result, what are we going to do about it??" :confused:
However, all he did was state how sorry he was that we disobeyed him in a free vote, and was told by his masters from France and Germany, to vote again. :rolleyes: Instead of a man of steel, we have a laughing stock of a Taoiseach with no authority, either here or abroad.
Laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Thats what happens when less than 1% tries to force the other 99%.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Huh ? I didn't seek to force anybody - I was given a yes / no decision and made a decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Funny how people suspend their democratic leanings when they don't like the result.
Funny how people suspend their democratic leanings when they think they can hold someone to ransom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus
The Lisbon treaty brought democracy, or "majoritarianism" as the No's called it, to more EU decisions. It brought the system closer to one man, one vote, for every EU citizen rather than special treatment for some. And it ensured a way of every citizen in the EU having a commissioner from their state 2/3's of the time, just like everyone else.
Fair, balanced, equal - apparently not things people want, when currently the scales are tipped in their favour; especially not when the last 2/3 they heard about is the new value of the house they're paying the bank for.
True. That is why we watch, read or listen to any form of media.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
The people rejected the Lisbon Treaty, which whether you like it or not is supposed to be passed on the basis of unanimity.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
... who said I didn't like it? What the hell has that got to do with anything? :confused: Its not going to be 'stealth passed' now, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I reckon you just picked the most irrelevant thing you could so, so as to avoid addressing anything I said. Funnily, that's happened a few times in this thread.
From the feedback I'm getting over here people are happy that Ireland voted no.
My wife's doctor was shaking my hand and saying thanks and other people at work also.
I think I would have voted yes. Just going on what the EU has done for Ireland. I haven't read anything about the treaty, maybe if I did I would have another opinion on it.
The EU has it's bad and good sides but I think Ireland has benefited a lot from it.
Of course it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Which is exactly why the 99% are asking us to re-consider our decision.
A lot of people seem to be automatically linking the fact that by voting no, we get some kind of free pass to renegotiate the Treaty, when patently this is not the case.
Whilst the ratification is by unanimity, the negotiation is most definitely by majority.
Ergo, thats why we aren't in the strong position that the No side would have us believe.
Declan Ganley has gone very quiet in the last few days as his prediction of how it would play out has turned out to be less than accurate.....
How naive!Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Everyone knew that was going to be the case when the joke was signed last year. Everyone knew that only one country was going to hold a referendum and the electorate there, would effectively, have the final say on whether it stood or fell. They are the rules of ratification, whether you agreed or disagreed with it. It fell, that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Yesterday, Hibernian axed 600 jobs and moved them to India. 1% of the company's payroll wanted to do so, so like it or not, the other 99% have to accept and deal with that situation. You may find the comparison "laughable", but that's the reality.
Since when did businesses become democracies?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
'it could be because of all the foreign criminals, don't know if thats true or not', that well thought out part of your post?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Referendums are very bad ways to enact any sort of law. I think Switzerland have a lot of them for local cantons so have all sorts of bizarre laws - maybe someone can point out if this is incorrect). Nice & Maastricht would not have passed if needed to run referendum in all states. Effectively you just need 1% of the voters in 1 of 27 states to stop everyone else. The EU would probably still have 13 states.
It seems vast majority of states don't need Referendums for most Treaties but I think they need to come up with some other way of making changes that bypasses Referendums.
Sure. Just pass one last treaty which clearly delineates where the EU has power and a rough outline of the internal structures which can be internally tweeked. Instead, we get treaty after treaty slightly expanding the role of the EU together with an obscene amount of trivial crap which should never see the ballot box.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
You can thank Raymond Crotty for that. Previous to his Supreme Court action in 1987 it was always assumed the 3rd Amendment to the Constitution gave the Oireachtas wide powers to deal within the scope of the EU. The Supreme Court decided (on a 3v2 split decision no less!!!!) that elements of the then Single European Act were at variance with the Constitution (though not the QMV interestingly) and that it should be put to the people. This established a precedent and every Treaty since has been put to referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I don't work in the field of law but I understand this was an extremely controversial decision and is widely challenged in legal fields and a belief that the decision to put everything to do with Europe to referendum is viewed as ridiculously conservative (instead of assessing each Treaty in the context of the Constitution and making a decision as to whether it is actually inconsistent).
The YES side would have no problem with refs, if the result went their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Refs. should be held in every state, and we see how many pfo's there would be. There's already been 3 on this alone. And there's a strong chance of 4, as any agreement concocted by Brussels on this, has to make it past our electorate, before coming into effect.
Can't uderstand how the USA can be run perfectly fine in the House of Representatives and Senate with 50 states, yet the EU can't run itself with barely half the amount. :confused:
I've never thought allowing a bunch of ill informed people decide the course of a country or a continent is a good ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
You want a federated single sovereign nation, do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost