Lisbon Treaty

[GavinZac]

Immigrations a non issue. With the economy going the way that will slow down too.

Will slow down. Unfortunately, the vote was last week. Having met with someone currently doing a thesis on immigration in Ireland this weekend, it very much is an issue, right now. Some of the soundbites were vicious. You might have grand ideals of how and what the EU should be, but most people think with their pockets.

[jebus]

Immigrations a non issue. With the economy going the way that will slow down too. What is an issue is the super exploitation of migrant labour.

Afraid I disagree with you there, in parts at least. It's been proven that immigration is the easiest fear to pray on in the working class vote when jobs are on the line. The economy is slowing down and 'the foreigner' is starting to get the finger pointed at them. Lived with a builder up until about a month ago and he had nothing but bad things to say about the Poles stealing Irish jobs (never mentioned the Irish contractor who was making the decision though), and during the campaign my housemate Marcelo (Brazilian) brought home the 'No To Foreign Rule' campaign poster because he thought it was ridiculously funny in it's under the table racist message.

I agree that immigration will slow down with the economic downturn, but who do you think will get the blame for then downturn in then first place? Not the greedy Irish ******* exploiting foreign workers, oh no, that's not the Irish way, we'll point the finger at the dirty foreigner who is willing to work for less money than we are.

Back on the environment BohsPartisan, you say the EU care little for climate change? I suggest you pick up a copy of today's Guardian and read about the UK's new strictly green 2020 vision. A policy that has been implemented so they can reach the standards set out by the EU, standards that sadly aren't going to be implemented as across the board EU policy without the Lisbon Treaty.

[BohsPartisan]

Kind of proves my point though (if they really implement and enforce the policy - I'll have to have a look at it later) that you don't need the Lisbon Treaty for this. If the UK government can implement it without Lisbon so can everyone else.

On immigration, I meant it was a non issue in terms of the Lisbon Treaty (for the vast majority). agree it can be used to whip up prejudice and is usually done by mainstream politicians when things get desperate.

When things get sh1t there is an opportunity to racists to flourish but its up to people like us to present an alternative.

Unfortunately, the vote was last week. Having met with someone currently doing a thesis on immigration in Ireland this weekend, it very much is an issue, right now. Some of the soundbites were vicious. You might have grand ideals of how and what the EU should be, but most people think with their pockets.

I'm not saying there are no racists, but they are in a small minority. Anyone can do a vox pop and play back the most sensational ones. I used to do vox pops and the producer for the show I was working on always picked the dumbest fux to play.

If people were really thinking with their pockets my "grand ideals" as you put them would be a far better way of going about it.

[mypost]

We havent decided what we're going to do about it, have we? The Taoiseach has told them we need til October to sort the situation out.

Unlike the other leaders, Cowen can't decide what to do with the treaty, the Irish electorate are the ones who make the decision not just for this country, but for the whole EU. We've made our decision, the treaty is null and void without us.

With the Dail sitting for no more than 6 weeks between now and the next summit, there will be no ideas proposed by October. Sarkosy aka Napoleon, should understand that Cowen has more issues to worry about in this country, than a poxy Treaty that we've told them we don't want.

PS: The best thing for Cowen to do, would be to do nothing, and await the outcome of the legal challenges against the Constitution in the UK and the Czech Republic, before deciding what road he wants to go down.

[jebus]

PS: The best thing for Cowen to do, would be to do nothing, and await the outcome of the legal challenges against the Constitution in the UK and the Czech Republic, before deciding what road he wants to go down.

So he should wait til October before deciding what to do then

[OneRedArmy]

Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.

[BohsPartisan]

Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.

Well all the facts in the world never shut you up from making your ridiculous arguments.

[SMorgan]

Today's Business Post poll should finally shut up those who claimed we voted No for reasons related to Lisbon.

With the greatest of respect, come back when MRBI carry out an opinion poll. If Red C told us entering the poll that the Yes side had a narrow lead on what was a relatively simple yes/no issue, how can you put much trust in a far more complex analysis based on the same sample size?

And did the Red C ask why people voted Yes?

Perhaps, the Lisbon Treaty will be dead if we voted No?? (we'd be so lucky)

or

I didn't understand it but the political parties told me to vote yes. (D.J. Carey on Joe Duffy's Liveline)

[Angus]

Can we just get a few things out of the way here ?

1. Not all "No" voters did so because of the no campaign

2. Not all "Yes" voters did so because of the yes campaign

3. Not all not voters believe the no campaign or are in any way supportive of Ganley, Sinn fein etc etc

4. Not all no voters are ignorant of economic theory as it relates to europe

5. Not all no voters are opposed to a second referendum e.g. if the commissioner was restored and the powers of the foreign ministry were diluted, I will change my vote

6. It is entirely plausible and legitimate to vote no on economic grounds

7. Even if it wasn't, there is more to life than economics - plenty of people voted no for concerns around soveriegnty

8. The concern that the EU establishment want a Federal Europe is a legitimate one - even if the Treaty stops short of syaing that, there is a real, legitimate concern that a USE is the end game and this is a valid reason for voting no

9. Not everybody who did not understand the treaty voted no - plenty of people voted yes because they were advised to so do

10. It is not necessary to read the treaty to form a view on it

11. A no vote does not mean an anti EU vote

12. This was not a vote on how good you thought the EU has been in the past

13. Please do not insult my intelligence Mr Barroso by suggesting that 5 years of negotiating and summits was to produce an "administrative framework" to allow 27 countries to work together more efficiently - utter drivel




Bye now

[OneRedArmy]

Well all the facts in the world never shut you up from making your ridiculous arguments.

Based on your posts, you don't sound like a Business Post reader, so I'd recommend you read the results of the poll before you comment.

[pete]

The only way immigration entered Lisbon was from the "they took out jobs...!!!" brigade.

If there are no jobs in Ireland foreign people will leave. Foreign workers is a sight of strong demand for workers or low supply. You won't see polish builders stay here on the dole when no work as they will leave for UK or wherever.

[bennocelt]

When things get sh1t there is an opportunity to racists to flourish but its up to people like us to present an alternative.

I'm not saying there are no racists, but they are in a small minority. Anyone can do a vox pop and play back the most sensational ones. I used to do vox pops and the producer for the show I was working on always picked the dumbest fux to play.
.

Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.

I voted no, and im proud that our deomcracy has shown up the fools in our onw country and brussels. Why do the No voters havee to explain anything, surely its up to our elected reps to go with our choice and do some deals for us, and not whinge that they are sorry

[pineapple stu]

If there are no jobs in Ireland foreign people will leave. Foreign workers is a sight of strong demand for workers or low supply. You won't see polish builders stay here on the dole when no work as they will leave for UK or wherever.

I dunno. It's probable alright, though in a recession, who's more likely to be let go - the cheap Poles or the expensive, unionised Irish?

[BohsPartisan]

Based on your posts, you don't sound like a Business Post reader, so I'd recommend you read the results of the poll before you comment.

You're right I'm not a business post reader. Well, I've bought it a few times depending on what was in it. Don't know why you discern that from my posts. Would it surprise you that I regularly read the Economist? I read the Irish Times (online) despite their extreme Yes bias and don't bother a Sunday Paper at all these days. (Used to get the Observer ftr).

The poll you cite was carried out by Red C who got the result horrendously wrong in their last poll while MRBI called the outcome close enough so I'd go with their previous poll on the referendum reasons why over Red C.
In fact if I was to go with any poll, I'd go with this detailed eurobarometer survey carried out by the European Commission.
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_245_en.pdf
As you'll see one of the main reasons people gave for voting yes was "Europe has been good for Ireland", nothing to do with Lisbon.

[OneRedArmy]

Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.

Ah, the Norman Tebbitt cricket test?

PS A lot of Irish people aren't exactly top drawer.

[Bald Student]

I tend to agree with the pieces of evidence that confirm my pre-existing opinions and find fault with those which contradict it.

[jebus]

Well my wife is a foreigner and she has NEVER encountered any racist comments from anybody, but then it could be the fact that she has chosen to embrace irish life and irish culture. Its easy to call irish people racist, etc but a lot of the people coming into this country are not really top drawer.

What in the Christ is that about?!

[pineapple stu]

It's persumably to do with the seemingly high proportion of foreign nationals who end up in the Criminal Court, though whether that's media bias or fact is left unexplored.

[jebus]

It's persumably to do with the seemingly high proportion of foreign nationals who end up in the Criminal Court, though whether that's media bias or fact is left unexplored.

% of foreign nationals who end up in the criminal courts in relation to the amount of foreign nationals permitted to work here in the same time frame please. I've never heard anyone say a high percentage of foreign nationals end up in court in this country

[pineapple stu]

See the second half of my post.