Trapattoni - who would you replace him with?

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Originally Posted by brine3

Stop being abrasive. I said it depends on the opposition. If you are playing the Faroe Islands you might play a more attacking passing football, if you are playing a top team then you might play a more defensive form of possession football, e.g. like Greece did in 2004.

But if you want to lose possession as quickly as possible and put your own team under pressure as quickly as possible, then hoofing it up the pitch is the way to go.

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Did you see Liverpool trying to "play football" against Southampton ? They almost gave 3 away and then conceded one. Tell me how we "play football" with John O'Shea and Richard Dunne in central defence. You have to have all your players comfortable, including your keeper, on the ball. We gave away 3 of the goals in Euro 2012 by losing possession in our own half. You have been fed on a diet of Barcelona, Spain and Real Madrid and think this can work for us. Almost every time we have to tried to play the ball out, the opposition put pressure on us and we got no where and back it went to Forde, Westwood or Given. Time and time again it has happened and not through any instructions Trapp gave. Only one Irish manager really tried this brand of football and it was Johnny Giles. I can still see Mick Martin falling over himself when the ball was passed to him in front of the Irish goal and giving the ball away and conceding a goal. Giles, with much better players than we have now, didn't succeed and the fans didn't like his brand of football and got on his back and he left, never having qualified us for anything.

For fear of repeating myself Trap's brand of football worked away from home. However, he seemed incapable of adjusting it for home games and therein lies his failing in my eyes. A man famed for his organised defences couldn't hold on to leads against Sweden and Austria and the group would have been different if he could.

As to who the next manager will be, the FAI's last two appointments have been surprises. So it might not be Martin O'Neill. I would be afraid if they delay too long they will lose their man for we're just about to go in to the silly season with sackings (and vacancies) not too far away.

Well, if our starting position is to assume we can't play football, then it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. That was pretty much the problem under Trap. James McCarthy is stroking the ball about the pitch for Wigan, then he plays for us and his legs turn to jelly.

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You have been fed on a diet of Barcelona, Spain and Real Madrid and think this can work for us.

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I addressed this straw man argument against me long ago. I actually cheer against Barcelona and Spain because I think they play too much tiki-taka and it gets in the way of playing football. I loved the Italian team at 2012 and was hoping they'd win in the final. Barcelona are stupid. They sold Yaya Toure and play Mascherano as a centre-back. They rightly and deservedly got tonked by Bayern Munich last season.

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Only one Irish manager really tried this brand of football and it was Johnny Giles. I can still see Mick Martin falling over himself when the ball was passed to him in front of the Irish goal and giving the ball away and conceding a goal.

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Like I said earlier, we outdid Germany and Spain in possession in our matches against them at the World Cup. Without Roy Keane. This is quite an achievement. In my opinion our 2002 team was our best ever. Who knows what would have happened if there had been no Saipan bustup. Look at the route Germany took to the final...

The Germany game in Ibaraki was on ESPN a few months ago. To say we played good football is complete revisionism, and to be honest I was surprised because I thought we played well. We did in the first half but we were utterly hapless at the back at times in the second half and apart from giving it to Duff or hoofing it long we showed nothing in the second.

That game could very easily have been 3-0 Germany and our first decent effort on goal in the second half was a Keane effort saved by Kahn on around 88 mins.

I'm kind of with you though. I don't think you're advocating pretty footy just for the sake of it. My point is that the game that Trap has resorted too in the last 18 months just doesn't work for us but that some degree of composed football combined with huff and puff would suit us better. Stockholm was a good example. We played really well out there. Cynics would say we had no shots on goal, but we were a sloppy finish or a sloppy final ball away from beating them, and deservedly so.

Is there anyone here who doesn't believe that that type of performance would serve us better than hoofball to Sammon, or Walters? Is there anyone here who doesn't believe that just one of Gibson or Hoolahan would probably make us play better and make results more likely?

We do have it in our toolkit to get results - enough to get playoff places - with the current players available to us. We need to trust them to play and not fear the occasional mistake.

Another Italian manager is a possibility now... What are the odds on mad Paolo getting the gig?

Paul O'Dicanneogh?

Yes, I was at the match in Stockholm and that was a fairly decent performance. I felt we could have nicked that one if Hoolahan had been on earlier, and perhaps if Walters was up front for a while. We were fairly lucky that Zlatan had an off-day, though.

Shame that Trap mucked everything against Austria with his mad substitutions that basically let the Austrians run riot for the final part of the match. Hoof the ball up to Conor Sammon. Ball comes straight back to our end 10 seconds later. Rinse and repeat.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Geysir, you brought his name up:rolleyes: (I might have mentioned him, among with other managers, about 5/6 years ago, but its great that you crawled back on my old posts). I guess he isnt working now as he is quite old.
We cant say how he would have done for Ireland because that never happened. Unlike Trap which happened.
So anymore 5/6 year old posts you care to bring up! That's desperate!

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Eh Benno, it's quite germane who you thought would be good for us instead of Trap, during Trap's early years, especially when you trumpet just how smart you were all the time and sneer (in most every post) at every other Irish fan.
The manager of your choice for the Irish job, turned out to be the biggest failure in the history of Polish football.
Maybe Benno, just offer your opinions without assuming you're something special and everybody else is just a dumb member of the sheep flock.
and btw, ole for Leo too ;) and thank fxk he wasn't our manager.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Eh Benno, it's quite germane who you thought would be good for us instead of Trap, during Trap's early years, especially when you trumpet just how smart you were all the time and sneer (in most every post) at every other Irish fan.
The manager of your choice for the Irish job, turned out to be the biggest failure in the history of Polish football.
Maybe Benno, just offer your opinions without assuming you're something special and everybody else is just a dumb member of the sheep flock.
and btw, ole for Leo too ;) and thank fxk he wasn't our manager.

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5 years ago Geysir!!!! Funny how he was given some big reward in Poland on behalf of the Polish people as well for his good work with poland in the euros, our Leo.
One bad campaign one good. Hardly the worst job ever in football, probably taking it easy now on a beach somewhere in Dubai, and one of a few managers I talked about 5 years ago (Otto Rehhagel, Roy Hodgson)
I didnt mention him this time, big deal, he is ancient anyway. Who did you suggest 5 years ago, I couldn't be bothered to trawl back in time. Might be a better idea to actual show my old posts when talking about them!
Thats a "what if" anyway.
Trap was a reality. We are not going to the World Cup. Enjoy that.
Bit of a difference.

This time i think MON is the best candidate -maybe not the most exciting football but a great man manager, what you think?

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Originally Posted by brine3

In the 2012 qualifiers the team player poorer than the 2010 qualifiers, but scraped through nonetheless.

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4 pts ahead of 3rd in our group and a 5-1 play-off win would suggest otherwise

Ha ha.
This thread is desperate at this stage...

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

4 pts ahead of 3rd in our group and a 5-1 play-off win would suggest otherwise

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Well that's it then, why bother watching the matches at all, we can just follow the team on teletext.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Eh Benno, it's quite germane who you thought would be good for us instead of Trap, during Trap's early years, especially when you trumpet just how smart you were all the time and sneer (in most every post) at every other Irish fan.
The manager of your choice for the Irish job, turned out to be the biggest failure in the history of Polish football.
Maybe Benno, just offer your opinions without assuming you're something special and everybody else is just a dumb member of the sheep flock.
and btw, ole for Leo too ;) and thank fxk he wasn't our manager.

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That's a bit rough on Beenhakker.

You could also argue that we appointed one of the biggest management failures in the history of the Italian national team. With all that talent at his disposal, the only teams he managed to beat in two finals were Bulgaria and Ecuador.

Lads off topic but did anyone hear Philly McMahon mention how the shamrock rovers lads would be slagging him cos the dubs players getting cramp towards the end of the match and he is strength and conditioning coach.

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Originally Posted by brine3

Yes, I was at the match in Stockholm and that was a fairly decent performance. I felt we could have nicked that one if Hoolahan had been on earlier, and perhaps if Walters was up front for a while. We were fairly lucky that Zlatan had an off-day, though.

Shame that Trap mucked everything against Austria with his mad substitutions that basically let the Austrians run riot for the final part of the match. Hoof the ball up to Conor Sammon. Ball comes straight back to our end 10 seconds later. Rinse and repeat.

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sounds like your posts here for the last few weeks

Ha ha, see above. ^^^

Ha Ha, Rinse and Repeat. see above ^^^

There is a middle ground between aimless hoofs and tika-taka. And it doesn't make much sense to argue about how we conceded goals in the Euro finals, so we won't be able to pass the ball.

The fact that the combination of players and tactics used in Poland saw us concede goals against quality opposition at the Euros does not mean that we can not find a combination of players and tactics that will allow us to keep the ball better.

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Originally Posted by brine3

That's a bit rough on Beenhakker.

You could also argue that we appointed one of the biggest management failures in the history of the Italian national team. With all that talent at his disposal, the only teams he managed to beat in two finals were Bulgaria and Ecuador.

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Aw shucks, is that a bit rough on Beenhakker? the worst flop in Polish football history and worst performing manager in the Euro 2010 qualifiers.

Suffice to say it won't be Leo! Or any other senile Dutchman...

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

5 years ago Geysir!!!! Funny how he was given some big reward in Poland on behalf of the Polish people as well for his good work with poland in the euros, our Leo.
One bad campaign one good. Hardly the worst job ever in football, probably taking it easy now on a beach somewhere in Dubai, and one of a few managers I talked about 5 years ago (Otto Rehhagel, Roy Hodgson)
I didnt mention him this time, big deal, he is ancient anyway. Who did you suggest 5 years ago, I couldn't be bothered to trawl back in time. Might be a better idea to actual show my old posts when talking about them!
Thats a "what if" anyway.
Trap was a reality. We are not going to the World Cup. Enjoy that.
Bit of a difference.

This time i think MON is the best candidate -maybe not the most exciting football but a great man manager, what you think?

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I repeat, because it appears to have gone way over your head. When somebody here takes the píss out of other posters for 5 years for perceived sheep like activity, then boasts about their own football acumen for 5 years, then it's quite germane to see who they fancied 5 years ago for the irish job, instead of Trap. And that fancy you had 5 years ago, turned out to be the biggest failure in Polish qualification history and the biggest flop of 2010 qualifiers.
Take it on the chin Benno, instead of squealing and searching the bottom of the barrel for excuses.

I don't know who are the other candidates to MON, I think the FAI should wait on this appointment and not just appoint the first one in the first queue. If MON got the job, I don't know how he would do, appointing an intl manager is a guess, Croatia appointing Bilic was a gamble, the Belgian manager was a gamble etc. The proof is ion the pudding.

In October and November, more European coaches will be looking for a new job. Some will have gone out of the WC by an away goal, some will have a variety of knockouts from goal difference to honourable group finishes, and others will simply see their contracts expire.

There are months and months and months of time to get the next appointment right. Hiring from what is available at this time is rash and ludicrous. I know that the Celtic crowd are desperate for MON to get it, but if he did, who's to say he would even begin next year's campaign when the next EPL job interests him?

We'll get the games out of the way in October, then focus on the future.

King could be put in temporary charge for the qualifiers in October: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29598793.html

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Originally Posted by geysir

I repeat, because it appears to have gone way over your head. When somebody here takes the píss out of other posters for 5 years for perceived sheep like activity, then boasts about their own football acumen for 5 years, then it's quite germane to see who they fancied 5 years ago for the irish job, instead of Trap. And that fancy you had 5 years ago, turned out to be the biggest failure in Polish qualification history and the biggest flop of 2010 qualifiers.
Take it on the chin Benno, instead of squealing and searching the bottom of the barrel for excuses.

I don't know who are the other candidates to MON, I think the FAI should wait on this appointment and not just appoint the first one in the first queue. If MON got the job, I don't know how he would do, appointing an intl manager is a guess, Croatia appointing Bilic was a gamble, the Belgian manager was a gamble etc. The proof is ion the pudding.

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That's a desperately bad effort for you to disprove me.
Got Poland to their first ever Euros, where they played very well, were unlucky (Remember Howard Webb and that dodgy decision!). The Polish were so happy with getting there they gave Leo their highest award (some Order of whatever), given by the Polish president. In the world cup qualifiers they messed up, sure, I accept that. But Poland hadnt a decent striker (Lewandolski wasn't fully bloodied), no Robbie Keane. Germany, on the other hand, had Poldoski and Klose (Polish born). Was in Poland actually in and around the time. Polish didnt have much against him, realising that they didnt have a great team anyway. And they havent done a whole lot since then either!
Also this is the guy that got T n T to a world cup, where they also played decent football. Not losing every game or getting their arse kicked! Now that was some achievement.
But, of course, you know otherwise!:rolleyes:
He might have done something for us, who knows, I stand by that.

My other choices - well Otto is still doing well with Greece, and Roy will get England to the world cup - probably to a usual quarter finals.

Again how are your choices doing???????????

(give me some credit - At least i didnt say Paul Jewells, or P Trouisser!)

You make intuitive sense mypost. However, my gut instinct is that decisive action is required.

For all the justified criticism of Trap's last 18 months, there is definitely something that can be built on. Every point in the next campaign will be crucial and it'll be a help if the new manager has had 4 games and several spells with the players in advance of the first game. We're not going to change to a continental-style team anytime soon so a British-based manager is likely to be what works best. I also genuinely think we need an Irishman. I personally don't doubt Trap's integrity (which isn't to say I'm not critical of the lack of time he spent at matches), but I think there's a risk of another overseas coach using this as a stepping stone or a transitory appointment - just as you think MON might.

I think an Irishman will capture the imagination and bring crowds back, a vital 12th man element that all but disappeared since we moved back to Lansdowne. Another continental appointment could be met with cynicism. Yes, this is a "soft" consideration but I think a united front is important, with fans, players and media all rallying behind the team rather than using every minor incident to knock it and engage in national self-loathing.

Martin O'Neill ticks all the boxes. He won't reinvent the wheel but he'd adapt the better parts of Trap's thinking and add a vital element of self-belief and motivation.

MON for now, McCarthy as his possible successor by which time he'll be done with club football. It'd also be nice to think a homegrown coach could be a very serious contender next time out.

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Originally Posted by mypost

In October and November, more European coaches will be looking for a new job. Some will have gone out of the WC by an away goal, some will have a variety of knockouts from goal difference to honourable group finishes, and others will simply see their contracts expire.

There are months and months and months of time to get the next appointment right. Hiring from what is available at this time is rash and ludicrous. I know that the Celtic crowd are desperate for MON to get it, but if he did, who's to say he would even begin next year's campaign when the next EPL job interests him?

We'll get the games out of the way in October, then focus on the future.

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Ah, you have removed your hands from your face, taken off the hard helmet and crawled out of the bunker!

I dont know if O'Neill would be in it for the long term, and I think mypost's theory that he could go for a premier league job next summer - in effect before the qualifiers for Euro 2016 begin - is a real possibility. To a degree it's possible with any manager we appoint, but I think O'Neill is less stable than say Mick was when he got the job after Jack Charlton. If a great candidate is available now then yes, appoint him, but waiting a few months (even to the turn of the year) shouldnt cost us anything.

As he says, a lot of candidates might be available when teams miss out on WC2014 via playoffs or finishing 3rd in tighter groups. For example Morten Olsen, Michal Bilek, Paulo Bento, possibly Didier Deschamps, Oscar Tabares and Roy Hodgson, could all be available by November, all are international managers and all have lead international teams to major tournaments or had (relative) sucess in European Club competitions. Some of them are perhaps not suitable, but if say Hodgson or Deschamps are given the boot by England or France I think it would be silly of the FAI not to at least consider them alongside MON.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Also this is the guy that got T n T to a world cup, where they also played decent football. Not losing every game or getting their arse kicked! Now that was some achievement.
But, of course, you know otherwise!:rolleyes:
He might have done something for us, who knows, I stand by that.

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He wasn't up against Spain and Italy in that World Cup. If he was, he probably would have lost every game and got a few boots for good measure.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

You make intuitive sense mypost. However, my gut instinct is that decisive action is required.

For all the justified criticism of Trap's last 18 months, there is definitely something that can be built on. Every point in the next campaign will be crucial and it'll be a help if the new manager has had 4 games and several spells with the players in advance of the first game. We're not going to change to a continental-style team anytime soon so a British-based manager is likely to be what works best. I also genuinely think we need an Irishman. I personally don't doubt Trap's integrity (which isn't to say I'm not critical of the lack of time he spent at matches), but I think there's a risk of another overseas coach using this as a stepping stone or a transitory appointment - just as you think MON might.

I think an Irishman will capture the imagination and bring crowds back, a vital 12th man element that all but disappeared since we moved back to Lansdowne. Another continental appointment could be met with cynicism. Yes, this is a "soft" consideration but I think a united front is important, with fans, players and media all rallying behind the team rather than using every minor incident to knock it and engage in national self-loathing.

MON for now, McCarthy as his possible successor by which time he'll be done with club football. It'd also be nice to think a homegrown coach could be a very serious contender next time out.

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McCarthy had his shot, he shouldn't get another go. He wasn't averse to rigid defensive tactics or rewarding loyalty to players when he was here either. With varying degrees of success.

And every minor incident will be knocked and loathed by all and sundry, regardless who is in the chair. In international football, every incident is a big one.

A sobering result at the German WCQ party is not the ideal way to begin any international tenure. There will be at least 4-6 games in the new year before the qualifiers start, for the new coach to work on his squad.

Those who demanded immediate action last time wanted Paul Jewell. Instead, we took our time, and got a proven winner who took us very far in the time he was here. Now as then, I want more haste, less speed.

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Originally Posted by mypost

He wasn't up against Spain and Italy in that World Cup. If he was, he probably would have lost every game and got a few boots for good measure.

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Might have got a draw with Croatia though?:p

Roy Hodgson? Nice bloke (met twice) but no thanks?

What about MO'N for a two game 'trial...as in the last two qualifiers.

Do you think MON's ego would accept that?

I actually wanted Hodgson in 2008.

What about El Tel?:)

Lagerback with Pat Walker as assistant?

Might be glad of it, dip his toe etc.

And Pat Walker? Reasonably obscure...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Walker

Eddie Gormley is out of work at the moment

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Might be glad of it, dip his toe etc.

And Pat Walker? Reasonably obscure...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Walker

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If LL was a serious contender PW could provide the bridge between the Irish and Scandi thinking.

Hmm, no offence, but you might just be over-thinking the amount of Irish thinking being brought to this particular table...

Happy with a Scando-coach but if there was a 'link man' would prefer someone with greater current knowledge of the domestic game, if only to slightly appease the LOI heads.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Roy Hodgson? Nice bloke (met twice) but no thanks?

What about MO'N for a two game 'trial...as in the last two qualifiers.

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Just out of interest why not Hodgson? To me he has a lot of the prerequisites, he's managed national teams successfully, taking a fairly medicore Switzerland to USA 1994 finishing second in a qualification group with Italy, Portgual and Scotland (who were better in 1992-4 than now) once at the World Cup they, like us, finished 2nd in the group and went out in the first knockouts (to Spain instead of Holland). He got them through topping a group for Euro 96 (which included them, Turkey, Sweden - who were 3rd at the WC94), all this was with a Swiss team that wasnt that great and man for man was probably worse than our team at the time. He also took a very poor Finland side to within 3 points of qualification for Euro 2008.

In terms of clubs he wasn't that great at Liverpool, but the club was in turmoil at the time with the Gillette and Hicks regieme ending and Henry taking over. It's not like Dalgelish did that much better the year after. He did well at West Brom and Fulham (initially saving them from relegation and then taking them to a Europa League final) and has won a lot of titles in Sweden and Denmark.

To me he seems like a good candidate, he's managed internationally, he's managed clubs in England (where the bulk of our squad play their football) and has even signed a few of our squad players like Long, Andrews, Duff (obviously now out of the picture for us) and (i think) Stephen Kelly. He's also got experience of the European game, his teams play dynamic football - at Fulham he would mix it up using wingers like Duff and Davies but also using pacey strikers like Johnston or targetmen (like Zamora) depending on what was required. If England get rid of him I would like to think the FAI would consider him a contender as well as Martin O'Neill.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Suffice to say it won't be Leo! Or any other senile Dutchman...

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That's right, you know all about Co Adriaanse because you read his Wikipedia page.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Just out of interest why not Hodgson? To me he has a lot of the prerequisites, he's managed national teams successfully, taking a fairly medicore Switzerland to USA 1994 finishing second in a qualification group with Italy, Portgual and Scotland (who were better in 1992-4 than now) once at the World Cup they, like us, finished 2nd in the group and went out in the first knockouts (to Spain instead of Holland). He got them through topping a group for Euro 96 (which included them, Turkey, Sweden - who were 3rd at the WC94), all this was with a Swiss team that wasnt that great and man for man was probably worse than our team at the time. He also took a very poor Finland side to within 3 points of qualification for Euro 2008.

In terms of clubs he wasn't that great at Liverpool, but the club was in turmoil at the time with the Gillette and Hicks regieme ending and Henry taking over. It's not like Dalgelish did that much better the year after. He did well at West Brom and Fulham (initially saving them from relegation and then taking them to a Europa League final) and has won a lot of titles in Sweden and Denmark.

To me he seems like a good candidate, he's managed internationally, he's managed clubs in England (where the bulk of our squad play their football) and has even signed a few of our squad players like Long, Andrews, Duff (obviously now out of the picture for us) and (i think) Stephen Kelly. He's also got experience of the European game, his teams play dynamic football - at Fulham he would mix it up using wingers like Duff and Davies but also using pacey strikers like Johnston or targetmen (like Zamora) depending on what was required. If England get rid of him I would like to think the FAI would consider him a contender as well as Martin O'Neill.

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Fair comment, but 'Ingerland' & Liverpool fans would probably disagree, though accept he did a great job at Fulham. WBA, was more on the medicocre side...

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Originally Posted by brine3

That's right, you know all about Co Adriaanse because you read his Wikipedia page.

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Tad delayed reaction! Co would probably have beat you to it. The last thing we want is a washed up reject...rinsed or otherwise.
;)

Realise MO'N does tick 1-2 boxes in that respect, but suspect he'd have rather more energy still than the Adriaanses & Trapps of this world...

You know nothing about Adriaanse.

And you know him personally?

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Eddie Gormley is out of work at the moment

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Well, I did spend a good few years of my life in Dublin standing in Richmond singing "Eddie For Ireland".

I'd like MON, I have to say. If you can have a listen to his speech that he gave in the Aras a few years ago on what it is to be Irish.....it was organized by the McAleese's. It was spine-tingling stuff.