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That's part of it but I think the main reason is just the fact there have never been separate ROI and NI teams in rugby, or in most other sports. Northern rugby fans have never had a Northern Ireland team to buy into (even though Ulster was, until recently, an effective surrogate), therefore they're not married to the idea.
The north should be grateful they have an international team as should the scots and the welsh. Hard to believe there has not been major opposition to 4 seperate teams competing from the one nation especially as it becomes more difficult to qualify for world cups with The break up of eastern block. Congratulations to the northern lads who have been brave enough to play for the nation(Ireland) they associate with. I think it is a mark of respect to the northern nationalists of previous generations who didnt have the opportunity to play for their country
So you're actually suggesting most of the North's squad have Irish passports??Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Yeah right, it's not April 1st.
Lennon's was a slight red herring, but it was contentious elsewhere.
Regardless of what they're qualified for, unless they need both for work (eg. know a few boys who've worked on certain Brit. govt. contracts who had to have the relevant passport and were eligible for both), why would most people have two passports?
Think a figure of around 90-100k joint holders was quoted around the time this was first mentioned, who had joint citizenship/passports.
But it could be far more, willing to be corrected....
That's fair enough. Wouldn't dispute that.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
But if you believe your rotund counterpart, they claim there was a 'Northern boycott' of the Irish rugby team.
Not just on the basis of what it represents....
;)
No, I'm not suggesting "most" of Northern Ireland's players have Irish Passports.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I am, however, telling you that several players, at all age groups (inc Senior), hold only Irish Passports.
I'm sure the English will feel left out from the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Not only does the United Kingdom have four seperate Associations, the "guardians of the laws of the game", the International Football Association Board (composed of 8 members), has 4 members from the British Associations - the other 4 designated by FIFA.
I don't feel that the four oldest Associations in the world, should be in any way "grateful" to be autonomous.
When Shane Duffy was called into the same squad as Ferguson two years ago to play Italy, I recall a Derry Journal article where Duffy said that he had intentions of playing for the IFA. Then again, he was 17 and had only been called up to stop him thinking about declaring for the FAI (possibly the same reason Ferguson was called up, who knows?). Thankfully both of them came to their senses.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
I think you're being a bit harsh on Worthington. What's the point in including a player who isn't interested? Was he in any underage squads recently? I'm sure that Ferguson would have been in some recent senior squads if he was interested in staying with the IFA.
Indeed, could you remind your fellow fans of this fact, before they make fools of themselves with petitions and boycotts? Oh wait...Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Having read the petition, I note this in it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
"we must stress that we accept that some players from Northern Ireland will choose to represent the Republic of Ireland team. This is, of course, regrettable, but we absolutely and unequivocally respect their choice".
It seems to me that the objective of the Petition is not to deny choice.
Speaking for myself, my non attendance at the ROI and Wales matches is because of the IFA, not the FAI.
I think some fans are being harsh on Worthington in this instance too, although I think Worthington should have included Ferguson in the squad for the recent qualifiers against Serbia and Slovenia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Anyway, Ferguson was interviewed for the "Happy Days" Northern Ireland fanzine recently (after the announcement of the squad for Serbia/Slovenia)
He was asked "will you be involved in the next series of Under 21 games?"
His response:
"Yeah, hopefully. The next lot of under 21 games are a couple of months away. I think the next one is away to the Faroe Islands and hopefully I'll be involved in that".
That reads like a small concession to me, without much meaning - it is only a fleeting acceptance of the reality. The objection is to the fact that a player may make the switch to the FAI and the overall objective is effectively to deny the choice. So on the one hand NI fans say that they "absolutely and unequivocally respect [the players'] choice", while on the other they seek to deny that choice on the grounds that it is somehow "unethical" and "sectarian". What a bunch of disingenuous jokers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
My reading of it is that the objective of the Petition is clear:Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
"As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. *This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
Whilst I have certain reservations about the content of the petition, I do think there is substance in this bit.
"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"
*I suspect the author(s) of the Open Letter are unaware of the "Gentleman's Agreement" agreed between the two Associations in Belfast in January 1999- the IFA represented at the time by Jim Boyce, with the FAI's then "top man", Bernard O'Byrne .
An "Agreement" with which Boyce stated he was "very happy".
I don't think that's necessarily true - or maybe I'm being over-sympathetic to our NI brethren. ;)
My take would be they are not seeking to deny choice, so much as ensure players are fully aware of the issues before engaging in a commitment. The frustration and dissappointment of seeing a player develop before having them re-declare is palpable. I don't think it's a conflict of ideology to respect the players choice while seeking players (and associations) to respect the unique situation NI is in and take due consideration when accepting call-up's. It has to work both ways at some point surely.
While it would be far better if the wording reflected a bit of respect to the choices made by existing players, and jettisoned the absolutely infuriating notion of sectarianism, on the whole it's seems a slightly more progressive response than the usual OWC claptrap.
"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"
That's a pile of emotionally retarded cráp.
"As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
And the objective of denying the choice of the player to play for the FAI is still implicit. It's just seeking a case whereby the FAI would be the one who is denying a player the choice.
"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"
Substance? It's outright derision of a player exercising his right as a dual national to play for the IFA or the FAI, with a guilt-trip thrown in in an attempt to give it an added moral dimension.
In essence, it is announcing an unequivocal respect for choice while blatantly seeking to undermine it and ultimately, to take it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Why should a kid be expected to make a switch when it suits the fans or the IFA? It is and should remain the individual's prerogative, in my view.
Totally melodramatic sure and I don't agree with the wording at all. But I can't blame fans for being impassioned or trying to protect their own interests, even if they get hysterical in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Think it should be noted I think internet petitions are utterly lame btw. :)
Absolutely agree. But (and I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this U-19 gentleman's agreement) how does declaring early or turning down the IFA at any age inhibit choice? Fair enough - it would be more inhibitive than for other dual nationals, who would likely get to pick and choose without not so much of a fuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
But given the unique situation this is, I don't think it's unfair to call for players to be more aware of the obligations of accepting a call-up. The younger you go, the thornier that issue gets but certainly, with full internationals, it should be fairly obvious if a player wants to play for ROI or NI.
Genuinely the only major problem I can see, off the top of my head, is a player being subsequently shunned by an association for chasing a cap for one over another - but we have our own Jermaine Pennant debates all the time and we can live with those.
The wording, as ever, absolutely dreadful - but the glimmer of the idea seems to be that a compromise should be possible, one that doesn't inhibit choice. Without going all hippy dippy on it (kumbaya) - isn't that something we'd all like to see?
And, in hindsight, let's just say the more attention I pay to the wording of the petition the more I'm going to distance myself from it...;)
How is it? I don't think it's unfair to suggest that players should not waste our time if they have no intention of playing for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
[QUOTE=Not Brazil;1487661]My reading of it is that the objective of the Petition is clear: *This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
*I suspect the author(s) of the Open Letter are unaware of the "Gentleman's Agreement" agreed between the two Associations in Belfast in January 1999- the IFA represented at the time by Jim Boyce, with the FAI's then "top man", Bernard O'Byrne .]
How dare anyone decide on a "gentlemans agreement" to deny an irishman or woman to represent their nation. Bernard O Byrne or whoever else in the FAI allowed this down through the years should be ashamed of themselves.
The english wont feel left out for the simple reason that a united kingdom team will be referred to as english. FIFA is a corrupt organisation with the most corrupt aspect been the existance of 4 pseudo nations been allowed play international football when they are simply components of one nation the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Excuse my laziness, but did the CAS / Daniel Kearns judgment not refute the existence of any "gentlemen's agreement"? I thought it did but genuinely am not sure and not particularly fussed to investigate at nearly 11pm.
Absolute rubbish. Are FIFA corrupt because Faroe Islands have a team? England, Scotland and Wales all have a great footballing history as the oldest associations after pretty much codifying and inventing the modern international game. Why would you want to destroy that history just because you have some chip on your shoulder?Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11