Because of the mad voting system we use, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x
Printable View
Because of the mad voting system we use, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x
It's more because of the mad electorate we use, rather than the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
:D Like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Can you blame the electorate when they put them as 17th preference, yet they still hold this much influence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Personally, I feel anything below 16th preference should insinuate that perhaps they're not the desired party in Government. Maybe that's just me..
Only in Ireland..we should throttle the guy who invented coalition politics once and for all.
Or a party that loses 75% of it's seats, and it's party leader. Is that a party that should tell us what to do? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
you really don't seem to understand a lot of what you're saying, at least the way it comes across.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
if a party loses 6 seats, that does not make the remaining ones any less the choice of their constituencies. if you're so against coalitions, you realise any kind of blockade on them would put fianna fail in an unassailable lead?
Yes, because you don't have to give everyone a preference. One of the great misrepresentations of the system imo - if you don't want a particular person elected, then give them no preference rather than a low one!Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
The electorate choose to decide on local candidates rather than national issues and legislature or even policy. This leads to a fragmented Dáil and therefore coalitions. Dáil elections are like a big county council election, and that is the fault of the people not the system.
No, but then they voted for FF, which was always going to mean that. If people wanted change, they had the option. I think you two are just guilty of buying into the FF propaganda "that it was all the nasty wasty PD's and we're really a centre left party". The PD's or any junior coalition partner only have that influence because the main party agrees with the policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I'd rank a party voted with a 16th preference as being more deserving of Government than some cute hoor muck savage in a flat cap from the ar se of nowhere that I couldn't vote for, getting a chunk of my tax money to do as he pleases.
If a party loses 75% of it's seats, then that's clearly a message from the electorate to them:Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
"We don't want you in government".
you're against EU farmer subsidies then? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
No, its not.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Its a clear message from the consituencies that they lost, that they'd prefer someone else. Its a clear message from the constituencies they did win a seat in, that they would like them in goverment. and on a national scale, by voting for fianna fail you are at least voting for the possibility of putting the PDs back in power - and more people voted fianna fail/pd than any other party. THAT is a clear message. ce sera. if you want an either/or election, wait for the presidential one.
As it happens yes, but mostly against the practice of independents with no national policy interests being bought of by pork barrel-type political agreements in the interests of forming a Government.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Who pray tell are you talking about exactly dfx? Is it the Greens? Is it the single transferable vote system itself you don't like or that some party you dislike is benefiting from it?Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
Are you as uncomfortable about Cyprian Brady getting a first preference vote that a candidate from the Natural Law Party, Republican Sinn Fein, Immigration Control Platform, Christian Solidarity or the Monster Raving Loony Party wouldn't be bragging about? I find it odious -but heh it's the system ...and that FF will sh1t on their own to get him in is their business.
What Gav said. Plus -they're a small party. Only about 15,000 less people voted 1st pref for them this time than in 2002 -that's about a 20% drop in their 1st pref vote. That it lost them 6 seats tells you only how tight the margins are for smaller partys.Quote:
Or a party that loses 75% of it's seats, and it's party leader. Is that a party that should tell us what to do?
Apparently Boyle just came out of Government Buildings and said they've agreed a deal.
When does my free folding bike arrive?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I think he's been misquoted.
I read it on Twitter, it has to be true. But of course it isn't.
Well done IrishElection.com. :rolleyes:Quote:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfeyqlkfgb/
Dan Boyle has denied earlier media reports that a deal has been done between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party of the formation of a government.
Seems like a matter of time now. Does anyone know what Dan Boyle's background is? I'm instantly suspicious of anyone with an American twinge to their accent and an opinion on economics. I checked out his website, and beneath a banner depicting some inspirationally bleak bogland, his diary has him down for a January meeting with "Irish Suctioneers and Valuers." I'm glad I'm not a suctioneer.
I don't mind whether FF or FG are left, right, centre or off centre. I want a simple Government - FF or otherwise - that is reflected by a strong desire in the polls and no low preference votes. As you say, the electorate refuse to do this and ends up in a fragmented Dáil and results in fudged together Governments between opposites. It is a farcical situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Granted the electorate shouldn't give low preferences, but the next failsafe against that - the system - then allows for low preferences to count for far more than they should.
It is the system and the electorate as outlined by Macy I don't like. FF and the Greens are opposites trying to fudge together a Government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
I want us to vote in a simple Government that doesn't take weeks to bargain and buy off opposites like FF and the Greens. I don't care if that Government is of parties that I didn't vote for. If Republican Sinn Fein poll strongly or the Monster Raving Loony Party ever do very well, then fine, let them into Government. However if any one party get poor preferences, they shouldn't be let anywhere near Government. It should be simple - let the most desired party rule...but our system allows for lesser desired parties to rule too...
I do not like the influence garnered by low preference votes whether they be the Greens or not.
Another way of seeing your highlighted text is that it gives balanced government reflecting a diverse and broad cross section of opinion which may possibly incorporate the best and brightest each grouping has to offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
Oh ...and where ethics of party A will at least be policed by the self-interests of party B.
You seem to be argueing for UK style first past the post. A system which, if introduced here, will probably mean Fianna Fail in power in perpetuity ...making them even more attractive to white collar gangsters on the make than they have been historically. How that's supposed to benefit the people of this country I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by d f x-
It depends on whether the glass is half-full I suppose. Coalition can interact with each other, but when you have a clash like the Greens and FF I can only see constant arguments and policy changes..coalitions bring about 'the national interest'. When two parties are opposites they'll have to compromise on a fair few of the policies perhaps affecting the reasons why they were popular in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
That we can't trust one party to run the country for corruption fears says more about the country than anyone could.
Green Party and FF seal deal, bar leaders' signatures
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfeyqlaumh/rss2/
Theres one thing doing a deal for government but with 2/3 majority needed among Green members will it voted through?
I can't wait to see what the Greens in particular compromised on...
perhaps we can change the thread title ???
Dan Boyle is the type that objects to policies without offering alternatives, and he just lost his seat in Cork. That answer your question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
adam
I thought Dan Boyle used to be a lecturer in CIT but his mycandidate.ie page says he was a former Community Youth Worker. Maybe I just linked Bishoipstown to the CIT. Hard to see in his background where he got his financial expertise but if Bertie is an Accountant... ;)
His family have a Fianna Fail backgound, so maybe that explains his enthusiasm for coalition with the Soldiers of Destiny. What happens if this coalition takes place. Will all motorway construction stop immediately seeing as most commentators think the tree huggers will get the Environment portfolio and their policy is anti motorway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Labour and Bertie have been very quiet during all these negotiations!!!!!.
Can't believe Fiannan Fail will go into coalition with a party whose policies would seem the anthithesis to a lot of their own policies. Can't believe the Green grassroots (pun) would encourage it to grow either.
Draft programme for government agreed but not announced.
Will go to a vote of Green Party members tomorrow.
Probably only members in the Greater Dublin area available to attend.
A few thousand voters voted for 2 PD TD's, neither on first count. FF got 41% of the vote, do the maths. A party that loses so many seats as they did, are not in a position to govern the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Except for the fact that a vote for FF was always a vote for the PD's, as they're essentially one and the same. I've no doubt that Bertie would've tried to keep the PD's on board even if it was a Labour coalition - doubt Labour would've bent so far over the desk as the greens have though...Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
And FG with 27% are:rolleyes:. if you use your logic 73% of voters did not want FGQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
...and Fianna Fail have no mandate to govern with 59% against them.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo
Yes the people have spoken. Their elected representatives will have to go before them & justify their stance. A smart move by Bertie , making sure the Greens will find it hard to be part of a rainbow at the next election.
Politics isn't about absolutes. The Green Party took a decision that they could achieve more of their policy objectives in Government than not and as for Fianna Fail, everyone knows they would jump into bed with anyone to get the numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by onceahoop
Labour would have been equally difficult to swallow for FF based purely on policies.
What policies? Labour are only Fine Gael light and FG are only a slightly less dirty version of FF. The Greens are about to enter that parlour for a few crumbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
The logic is the Greens held onto their seats in the election. The PD's lost theirs, i.e. the Greens are in a better position than the PD's to rule the country as of now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo
Given you support of what is generally considered, in todays Ireland, as extremist politics I can understand your view that they are all shades of the same colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
However given the list of viable options, having the Greens in Government, with whatever influence they have, is at least worth a shot. Another 5 years off FF/PD plus a few mercenary independents with no interest in national issues was something to be avoided.
Time will tell what the Greens influence is, and they may fail miserably to exert influence, but at least they are trying advance their agenda.
Crossroads time for the Labour party, doubtful that they can regroup and go back to their roots enough, but at least they'll have that chance in opposition.
Greens can either deliver or they're fooked. They will be held up for scrutiny and attack from the opposition for the next 5 years as opposed to the cosy relationship they enjoyed up to the last election. Most Greens were essentially elected on Rainbow transfers, (Cuffe for example only over took Boyd-Barrett on FG transfers) something they won't have to the same extent next time.
There would also be a view that they, like the Labour Party to some extent, suffered at the last election as people couldn't trust them not to go in with FF - and ultimately people who didn't were right. Hence the Andrew Doyle FG gain as opposed to De Burca or Kelly in Wicklow for example.