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People getting upset about foreign nationals working in jobs they are doing of there own free will, and maybe making half decent money should cop on, not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
More to the point, has anyone done any research to see if they are unhappy?
Sounds like an entrepreneuring type of fella, did he do well on tips?Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
When you answer my question about whether anybody has done any research to see if they’re happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedder
I take your point about people getting upset (and agree with 100%) but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a rubbish job and doesn’t mean that everyone doing it would rather be doing something else.
If you honestly believe thse people are happy, fine...
At 2 euro a (tax free) tip i think toilet attendants would be easily earning the minimum wage per hour. Lets say guy works from 11pm to 4pm i think will easily earn more than 40 euro for the night. His costs would be minimal too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
This is typical middle class socialism assuming its some kind of slavery. No one is forcing them to work there as clearly they apporoach the clubs. If you can't get a job in Ireland these days at the unskilled level then you clearly too lazy. Every Spar in Dublin is looking for staff.
:rolleyes:
okay, I'll bite...
And his social insurance stamps?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
It is not clear that they approach the clubs, but even if they do it doesn't absolve the clubs of paying de facto employees.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Again, assuming that they're allowed to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
A lot of people, in an ideal world, would rather be doing a different job, myself includedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Happiness is all relative anyway...
If they not allowed to work then its illegal for them to work in the clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I don't approve of toilet attendants but I do blame the clubs for allowing them there in the first place. They have high enough mark up on drink to employ a cleaner.
Exactly, so it's probably not as simple to say they can just go and get a job somewhere else. How people end up getting exploited is because they don't have any options, due to them being illegals, having work permits tied to employers etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Of course if they are illegal, they shouldn't be here. They have the option of returning home..
I feel it strange that nobody seems curious as to why you would want or need deodourant or aftershave in a nightclub in the firstplace. I mean do people not wash before they head out, in certain areas?
150,000 on the dole in this country. Some of whom get a Christmas bonus:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Pure laziness especially when you consider how many non Irish are here working.
KOH
Get off your rocking horse Pete. If you weren't a mod you'd be ticked off for that kind of flaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Same way as Irish people who fled the country during the famine had the "Option" of returning home. I bet if you had fled Nigeria and the only option was working in a jacks or going home, you'd work in the jacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedder
Add to the famine example Irish illegals in the states all through the last century and this and the Irish government campaigning to make them legal. The level of ignorance towards the issues that face immigrants in this country is astounding at times.
I'm not ignorant to any difficulties facing immagrants. These people may have applied for asylum which is fair enough. This might be the only type of chance they can get to earn a few bob, as it seems they are self employed to an extent. The guys doing jobs like this are probably much happier doing it than returning home so I for one, don't think they are getting a raw deal. Without knowing how much they make in cash a night, from experience of busy clubs its probably more than minimum wage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Taking your point a step further, do you think we should have an open door policy to immagrants? The Eastern eurpeans and Baltics have fueled our economic growth over the last 3 years in particular, and are rightly welcomed to this country but would it be right to have a complete open door policy??
I don't think things are as simple as open door or no open door. I would be against stopping people from coming here to work full stop. As I pointed out it would be hypocritical to the extreme given our history. What really needs to be done though, is to end the conditions that force people out of their homes to become asylun seekers in the first place. What do I think that solution is? See the Socialism thread. In the case of Nigeria, Shell are major culprits.
Has anyone else noticed that the Indo story which precipitated this thread referred throughout to "toilet tenants?" Unless the attendants involved are locked in the cubicles at night, we shall have to assume that the journalist in question doesn't know the difference between the two words, and his sub-editor was too stupid to notice, presumably because the error wasn't flagged on a spell-check.
Bohs Partisan, agree on finding a solution on the root cause of the problem.
I'll go read the Socialism thread..though I have to admit i'm not a fan of your politics. I'm open to learning, but I believe that entrepreneurship and hard work should be rewarded. However, I also believe that no one should be sleeping on our street or going hungry.
or sleeping in a jacks if their "toilet tenants":pQuote:
Originally Posted by nedder
So do I. I don't believe it is though. Last I'll say on this particular subject here. Any further queries in said thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedder
Are they paying rent on the jacks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
yeah correctQuote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
actually my cousin is in the USA, at the moment he is an "illegal", but working hard out there
who gives a flying fcuk where they are from or what their status is, its not like irish people arent accepted in every country in the world
Wasn't always the case. Used to be very unwelcome in some areas. Bit like Nigerians in Ireland really.
No Irish, No Blacks.
yeah true, but did it make any difference, we still did our own thing and got on with it,and now the irish are everywhereQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
So Irish people cleaning toilets is cool, black Africans handing out tissue is demeaning? Ok
You're missing the point. Possibly deliberatelty. The fact is that the
toilet attendant job is 1. Unneccesary and 2. A race specific employment 3. Paid in Tips.
By the way I've done cleaning jobs and yes it is demeaning. Whats even more demeaning about cleaning jobs is that the majority of cleaners are Women. However at least you get a payslip and your social insurance.
I doubt very much that while doing interviews for bar staff, that management will say "Ok you're white, you can pull pints". "You are black, needless to say you are on toilet duty". It doesn't work like that. As someone already said, it's more often than not the person themselves will ask can they do it with or without payment from the pub and make up the money in tips.
Conjecture. Back up your claim that Black people go looking for these jobs.
Its not as if the Pubs hold open interviews and then decide who works behind the bar and who works in the toilet afterwards. You're just obscuring the real points by introducing that ridiculous line of debate.
Lets compare this to Prostitution. You can easilly say that "no-one is forcing prostitutes to be prostitutes". You can say that Prostitutes solicit their services. Yet is prostitution not demeaning to women?
Whats demeaning about earning an honest living ?Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Have you ever worked as a cleaner?Quote:
Originally Posted by anto1208
while i was in college i work in McDonalds. I cleaned toilets a lot. Its no big deal. No one gave me a tip:( . What about the plumber un-blocking the toilet or the guy in the treatment plant etc?
see, now you're doing the demeaning by comparing a toilet attendant to a prodtitute.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
I've heard of first time buyers being p1ssed on, but this is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Ok this toilet attendants thread needs a new angle. In 1988 in The Gare Du Nord, in Paris, I saw my first ever toilet attendant in the Gents. It was a woman! My reaction was to imagine how nuts women would go over here if there were male toilets attendants in their toilet!
Those crazy french!Quote:
Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie
If migrant toilet attendants complained that would be fair enough. Can't take this serious when do gooders thinking they know best when not consuted the people they think they helping.
If you come to Ireland as an illegal migrant & have few if little english then i am sure you not expecting to start at the top of the ladder. People make their own choices.
Typical tory refrain. Anyone with a remotely progressive attitude on anything is a "Do Gooder."
Again to go with the prostitute analogy, the job is not just demeaning to the prostitute but to all women.
On a different note the guys who worked for GAMA weren't complaining about their pay and conditions initially because they were afraid. Victims of child abuse often don't complain out of fear. Does this absolve the abuser? I doubt toilet attendants who are asylum seekers thus not supposed to be working are going to start drawing attention to themselves by complaining. This is solveable by allowing asylum seekers to work at normal tax paying jobs.
Better solution to:Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
- process asylum cases quicker
- public discussion of economic migrant "green cards".
Vast majority of asylum seekers are economic (although given the expense in getting to Ireland have to wonder how poor they are) & not political. We should decide as a country to remove visa system with economic migrant green cards. However may meet resistance from the left as working class job lost to hard working new comers. e.g. Labours stance on emmigration earlier this year.
Labour are not Left.
That issue was not about immigration, it was about maintaining rates of pay for all workers be they immigrants or Irish. Well done for completely buying the FF spin there pete.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Are you sure as seemed like labour was fishing for the 'they took our jobs' vote...Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
BTW the irish minimum wage is i think 3rd highest in the EU & increasing significantly again soon.