Current feelings about the team

We all know the big game for now is the Czechs at home, no messing we need a win!! You have to win your games at home, simple as that!
We need a good win and performance in Cyprus to raise the spirits and confidence going into the Czech game.
I feel with a little bit of tinkering, particularly in midfield that this team can go places. Everytime JOS gets the ball he wants to get rid straight away, not the attributes of a good CM, therefore we need someone to come in there, who is more composed and confident on the ball.
Finnan should be on the right, otherwise when hes on the left everytime he goes forward the chances are wasted as he has to turn back on his right to cross.

The other thing is the age of this team, given,carr and kilbane to the best of my knowledge were the only guys on sat over 30, we have a very young team! Good chance they'll come good yet

Well the old argument goes which would you rather a better team on paper with a poor inexperienced manager or an average side withh a top class manager. I feel that Stauntons management could bring us down to be on a par with Wales with the astute managment of Toshack

Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes.

Well look at Greece at Euro 2004 or Porto also. Notts Forest won 2 European Finals with not world Class teams. There are cases where if you get a good manager in you can achieve more than if you had a poor manager in. The duty of a manager is to get the maximum out of his team.

I don't subscribe to tactics, never have, never will, but I was just using this thread to quote Brian Clough

Sure why were you giving out that Staunton was put in charge as clearly you dont think it makes any difference whatsoever. Is this pure Wind up stuff?

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Originally Posted by wws

Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes.

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I don't think it is as easy as that. Of course players are responsible but they need to be prepared and organised correctly. A player needs to feel comfortable and confident in the role he plays on the pitch. There's a lot more to tactical preparation than the formation. If it were soley about the players then why have a manager? Why is M O'Neill doing so much better with the same players that D O'Leary had.

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Originally Posted by wws

Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes.

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Not true IMO. In that case why bother with managers? We might aswell have Brady or Dunphy running the team then (please God no).

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Not true IMO. In that case why bother with managers? Also how can Martin O'Neill (a good manager) come in and totally turn around Villa with almost the same players that O'Leary had 3 months beforehand.

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first of all the words above posted by me are a direct quote from one of the games greatest managers, Brian Clough.

second of all your line above is a classic case of everything thats wrong with football commentary by ppl these days - O'Neill has had only a handful of games yet you've already deemed him as completely "turning around" aston villa - it doesn't stand up to any objective reasoning. even o neill will admit that it well take a long time before any definitive judgement can be made on the matter

basic level of organisation is a minimum, nay expected of any competent professionals - most managers can do this - it doesnt require genius "tactics" plucked from the heavens and used only by the chosen few. what the players do on the pitch is down to their abilities and decisions made on the spot - not in reference to a tactics board - ireland have relatively poor players (in the global scheme of things) therefore only have basic heart and work rate to contribute - no "tactics" in the world can transform these guys into better players

i dont blame staunton, he inherited the same poor squad kerr was lumbered with, though he got a lucky break with doyle

Given Slovakia's trouncing of Cyprus & how relatively well the Welsh did against Brazil in White Hart Lane last night, I think we have much more than the Czechs to worry about. I've written our chances of a trip to Austria/Switzerland completely off.

Brian Clough indeed was a genius of a manager because of the simplicity of his managment. However I think Clough liked to portray it as more simple than it actually was. There is many styles of managing a team, from the fiery Ferguson hair dryer stype, to the calm collected syle of Wenger, the O Neill style which only appears on match day etc.

I think Brian Cloughs quote is a bit glib and I agree players do win games but it is also possible for an average bunch of players to over achieve due to the manager that they have. I think we have some poor players and some really good players. Its up to the manager to get them to over achieve. I think with Brian Kerr they probably reached the level they were at. Mc Carthy over time got the team to over achieve. It will be interesting to see how Staunton gets on but so far he has started along the same lines as Mc Carthy did.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Brian Clough indeed was a genius of a manager because of the simplicity of his managment. However I think Clough liked to portray it as more simple than it actually was. There is many styles of managing a team, from the fiery Ferguson hair dryer stype, to the calm collected syle of Wenger, the O Neill style which only appears on match day etc.

I think Brian Cloughs quote is a bit glib and I agree players do win games but it is also possible for an average bunch of players to over achieve due to the manager that they have. I think we have some poor players and some really good players. Its up to the manager to get them to over achieve. I think with Brian Kerr they probably reached the level they were at. Mc Carthy over time got the team to over achieve. It will be interesting to see how Staunton gets on but so far he has started along the same lines as Mc Carthy did.

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theres a lot of ppl of the opinion that we have *some* great players - I'm not one of them - in general the so called greats Duff and Keane are a shadow of what is required at the truly top level. when your best player is your keeper you KNOW its a lean patch. as above I think Wales will match our work rate home and away so they wont be beaten easy, cyprus - we should beat them at home but will probably struggle away - the czechs and the slovaks - i think we will be beaten by them

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Notts Forest won 2 European Finals with not world Class teams.

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forest had a feckin brilliant team!!! the chamionships and european cups should be enough to show you this. One of cloughs/Taylors strengths was spotting a good player. tactics are what **** teams use to get draws.

They had a brilliant team but for a team that won 2 European Cups they were not blessed with World Class players., I am not slagging the players but they did nto have players that would go down as all time greats of world football. In my opinion that is what makes Taylors and Cloughs achievements so good.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

They had a brilliant team but for a team that won 2 European Cups they were not blessed with World Class players., I am not slagging the players but they did nto have players that would go down as all time greats of world football. In my opinion that is what makes Taylors and Cloughs achievements so good.

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you're not on solid ground here, they did have world class players but none played for world class international teams!

* John McGovern
* John Robertson
* Trevor Francis
* Garry Birtles
* Peter Shilton
* Larry Lloyd
* Kenny Burns
* Martin O'Neill
* Tony Woodcock
* David Needham
* Viv Anderson
* Ian Bowyer
* Archie Gemmill

I know the players I am still of the view that the team was greater than the sum of its parts.

I would have thought that Peter Shilton, Archie Gemmill, Tony Woodcock, MArtin O'Neill, John Robertson as well as Trevor Francis(first million pound player) and Viv Anderson were pretty handy footballers with plenty of international experience.

They were handy footballers I never said they were not but I would not describe many of the team as World Class with the possible exception maybe of Peter Shilton. Some very very good players there in my view.

do you consider Robbie Keane World Class than?

No I dont

agreed

Its shifted from are they great players to are they world class.
By those standards we have only ever had a few greats at best at any one time. Players who could arguably walk into any team in the world.
What's made the difference in the past is the amount of good players available . eg Townsend, Houghton, Whelan, players who brought their club form with ease to the national team, who had enough class to adjust to the needs of the day and a manager who could get the best out of the less than good players.
Shay Given is our outstanding pro, he oozes professionalism, focussed from the minute he steps onto the pitch for warm up, he is notches up the ladder from the rest and is the de facto captain.
Dunne, Finnan and Doyle Good players, no arguement
O'Shea is showing signs of life, we just have to keep feeding the coin meter for 90 minutes.
O'Brien, Harte, Carr and Kilbane play to their ability and can't offer much more.

Keane, Duff, S Reid, Good players, imo are for different reasons playing less than their ability.
Collectivly they have misfired. That's a managers job to sort that out.
Kerr would not have survived this qual campaign, there would have been no patience with any more losses, the savaging would have demoralised the squad.
I saw enough in Stuttgart to be of the opinion that the team is taking some shape, we performed better than I expected, the real evidence of that will be in the next 2 games.

Wouldn't disagree with above.

What would you say are the differing reasons for the loss of form for the 3 players you refer to?

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Originally Posted by geysir

Kerr would not have survived this qual campaign, there would have been no patience with any more losses, the savaging would have demoralised the squad.

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wrong. One, thats 1, o n e competitive losses in qualifying. to eventual world cup runners up.

this is the level of posts here

deluded

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Originally Posted by wws

wrong. One, thats 1, o n e competitive losses in qualifying. to eventual world cup runners up.

this is the level of posts here

deluded

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Not as deluded as to the reference to the absence of greatness (nay world greatness) in the current squad as a causual effect on current standings.

The delusion is maybe that one day some of us may aspire to reach your greatness :)

agree with wws.
using the fact that kerr would have lost games with this team as a justification for replacing him with an inexperienced manager who is losing games with this team(3 in four matches at last count) is just a ridiculous statement.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Not as deluded as to the reference to the absence of greatness (nay world greatness) in the current squad as a causual effect on current standings.

The delusion is maybe that one day some of us may aspire to reach your greatness :)

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I never said we dont have great players. I'm saying we dont even have good players. Given excepted

I think last sats performance displayed a hell of a lot more spirit and pride than we saw in most games in the Kerr era, ill never forget the dull atmosphere, performance etc from the swiss game at home, the only one who played with heart that night was Given.

I think Duffer is nowhere near living up to his reputation. Did ye see how before the kick off he went round to every single player? I was really expecting a top notch performance from him but it didnt materialise. Ok i know he was marked by 2/3 each time but even still i think he couldve provided more than he did. One of the most annoying things for me about duff is he tends to want to come collect the ball, have it played to his feet, rather than say a ball over the top for him to run onto.

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Originally Posted by elroy

I think last sats performance displayed a hell of a lot more spirit and pride than we saw in most games in the Kerr era, ill never forget the dull atmosphere, performance etc

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Paris? As for the Swiss home match. Duff was injured for that match and it made a big difference. Duff was pretty much forced to play up front in the home game against Russia with Keane's father dying. The first Basel match we were without Cunningham and had pretty much the same bunch of players that McCarthy left with. All crucial games and all crucial players. Kerr did fail to qualify but Ireland need a bit of look to qualify, we certainly had none under Kerr.

I just have a bad feeling that we are entering a period of wilderness in International Football terms and that it's similar to the end of the Eoin Hand era. :( As for Staunton well only time will tell but it's not looking clever so far.

Have to agree with Geysir.. I think the next couple of games will tell alot of how this team will do. The Czech game will ultimately decide alot. I did see a change in Germany, we did at least give it a go.

Stan is a bit of a joke at this stage but it will be interesting to see how he gets on...

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Originally Posted by Scratchy

I just have a bad feeling that we are entering a period of wilderness in International Football terms and that it's similar to the end of the Eoin Hand era. :( As for Staunton well only time will tell but it's not looking clever so far.

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With players like Given, Duff, Keane, Finnan, Dunne, McGeady, Reid and Doyle we have 8 players more than capable of playing on the international stage. Maybe doubts over McGeady and Doyle atm but I'm more than happy with those 2. If we do enter a "period of wilderness" then it'll be down to the manager as we have the quality whether people want to believe it or not.

We were fcukin horrible. Most of the game seemed to be played in the last quarter of the pitch i.e. Ireland's. Couldn't take any positives. No chances created other than in the first few minutes....absolutely dreadful. We could have come away with a 0-0 but would not have deserved it.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

If we do enter a "period of wilderness" then it'll be down to the manager as we have the quality whether people want to believe it or not.

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EB I'm book marking this post so when it all goes pear you cant back Stan like ye did with Kerr.

Personally I cant see us falling too far behind. Also congrats to Scotland who seem to be putting their wilderness behind them.

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Originally Posted by Scram

We were fcukin horrible. Most of the game seemed to be played in the last quarter of the pitch i.e. Ireland's. Couldn't take any positives. No chances created other than in the first few minutes....absolutely dreadful. We could have come away with a 0-0 but would not have deserved it.

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We were not that bad a if ye can find positives from the game in relation to our recent performances you are either delusional or not a fan.

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Originally Posted by onenilgameover

EB I'm book marking this post so when it all goes pear you cant back Stan like ye did with Kerr.

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If we do go like Scotland did under Vogts than I certainly won't be backing Stan. :)

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Duff was pretty much forced to play up front in the home game against Russia with Keane's father dying.

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Sorry EB, you're wrong there, Keane missed the Georgia game because of his father's death, and returned for the Albania game.
Duff played up front with Doherty against Georgia: http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=407206
Keane returned for the Georgia game, played poorly (understandably) and was substituted for Doherty: http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=407207
Although Duff did play up front against Russia, it was because Keane was injured: http://www.elevenaside.com/boysingre...sp?newsid=7426

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the lack of a cutting edge as the Russians’ rearguard action blunted an Irish attack sorely missing the inventiveness of the injured Robbie Keane

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(sorry I can't find a better link than that, but it's one in the morning and the higher brain functions aren't engaged!!)

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Duff was pretty much forced to play up front in the home game against Russia with Keane's father dying. The first Basel match we were without Cunningham and had pretty much the same bunch of players that McCarthy left with. All crucial games and all crucial players. Kerr did fail to qualify but Ireland need a bit of look to qualify, we certainly had none under Kerr.

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Yes Robbie missed a game due to his Father's death but we won that one. Part of the victim theory is crumbling.
Credits, if any, we had on bad luck were balanced out by the points won in Cyprus and quite possibly the Faroes.
Does Stan not get some bad luck credits?
surely the 'Gammy goal in Stuttgart' is worth a mention :)

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Originally Posted by geysir

Yes Robbie missed a game due to his Father's death but we won that one. Part of the victim theory is crumbling.

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I got matches mixed up but he still missed the Russia game so my point still stands.

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Credits, if any, we had on bad luck were balanced out by the points won in Cyprus and quite possibly the Faroes.
Does Stan not get some bad luck credits?

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How is it that luck? Given has as much right to play great as Duff does, he's one of our 11 players. We should have slaughtered Israel, Cyprus deserved a point against us.

You seem to be making out I'm biased towards Kerr. I'm not. Kerr is a top, top manager imo.

I don't subscribe to hard luck being a factor. Usually it balances up, we get a gammy late winner at home to Albania etc etc etc.
Sure Shay has the right to make 20 saves against Cyprus away as much as the Israeli goalie here. Shay made a few saves against Germany, it took a wicked deflection to beat him. If you subscribe to the bad luck factor then that applies here.
Every Irish manager has had thin squads to work from. Whether it's Robbie Keane getting injured against Russia or getting suspended for the away Turkey play off game. Both Quinn and Cas injured for wc '94.
Kerr operated under similar circumstances as any other Irish manager.

Maybee your main point is about Duff. 'twas great to see Duff back to his best in Stuttgart with some flashes of brilliance. Caused 2 yellow cards and should have been 3. His last move before he got chopped down was pure class, you could hear most of the crowd gasp in awe at the skill. Duff will be a vital part in this campaign.